Start8 Beta Restores Start Button to Windows 8

[c3141hf]

I believe this is correct.



But Windows 8 isn't a desktop OR a tablet OS, it is a desktop AND a tablet OS, it a true hybrid implementation. Even Windows RT devices have a desktop though it's locked down. A lot of people complain about the fact that there is a desktop UI on Windows RT devices and think it shouldn't be there.

Look, there are issues with this approach and I've talked about them. The Windows desktop isn't touch optimized and that will frustrate users. But at the same time it gives Windows 8 users the opportunity to use desktop apps with a tablet and that can be very useful but it does take some effort to get used to it.

I get called a Microsoft shill all the time and that I just blindly defend Microsoft and Windows 8 but I'm generally just trying to explain things. If you don't like Metro on the desktop, I get it, Microsoft gets it to. But even if you don't like Metro at least attempt to understand WHAT the product is technically.

If you think its force I get it. Microsoft is changing Windows into something other than a traditional desktop OS so I guess that's force. But just think that this is an arbitrary decision when there's tons of evidence that traditional PC market is a hell of a lot of trouble isn't taking into account the market for computing devices. It a dramatically different world than even when Windows 7 was released and it's mainly do to the meteoric rise of smart phones and the iPad.

So if this what is called defending Microsoft then so be it. But it doesn't seem reasonable to expect Microsoft to not make deep changes to Windows to align to current market conditions. Not everyone obviously is going to like these changes. And I can understand the argument that Metro should be optional for desktop users but that's simply not straight forward. If Microsoft had built in a Metro off switch it would have told developers that Microsoft had no confidence in Metro. You don't put an off switch in the most radical redesign ever to a product and then expect 3rd parties to support those changes. It would make more sense to build a separate tablet OS than to put in a Metro off switch.

I understand what Metro is perfectly. It is an attempt to restrict the user's freedom by turning Windows into a walled garden in which Microsoft, and not the hardware owner, gets to decide which applications may or may not go on YOUR hardware.

Never in a million years will I ever buy any device or software that restricts me in such a manner.

 

[heatlesssun]

I understand what Metro is perfectly. It is an attempt to restrict the user's freedom by turning Windows into a walled garden in which Microsoft, and not the hardware owner, gets to decide which applications may or may not go on YOUR hardware.

Never in a million years will I ever buy any device or software that restricts me in such a manner.

On the surface what you say is true however side loading is very easy in Windows 8. Anyone with a Windows domain can side load and even all an individual has to do is install Visual Studio Express to support side loading at no additional cost.

Now I don't know what Microsoft's policy is on people selling apps outside the Windows Store. I'm sure they aren't goring to encourage people to do it but I don't see them actively stopping it unless lots of people started doing it or people started running their own app stores.

 

[Briguyatx]

He doesn't grasp that a lot of people are not pissed off that the Start Screen is there, but that it is being forced upon the everyone. I think I can speak for a lot of people when they say that they just want the OPTION built in.

The start screen isn't being forced on anyone - If you don't like it, don't upgrade to a piece of software designed around it. Keep using Windows 7.

Personally, I think it's a huge improvement over the start menu and will only get better as I learn more shortcuts.

 

[c3141hf]

On the surface what you say is true however side loading is very easy in Windows 8. Anyone with a Windows domain can side load and even all an individual has to do is install Visual Studio Express to support side loading at no additional cost.

Now I don't know what Microsoft's policy is on people selling apps outside the Windows Store. I'm sure they aren't goring to encourage people to do it but I don't see them actively stopping it unless lots of people started doing it or people started running their own app stores.

You expect home users to buy Windows Server and create a domain just to have the freedom to install whatever they want on their own device?

What about distributing your applications to others? Can that be done outside the app store?

After seeing how crApple has run their app store, with the blatant censorship of content, I want no part and it is an unacceptable assault on free speech and freedom to even give Microsoft that capability.

 

[Unknown-One]

You expect home users to buy Windows Server and create a domain just to have the freedom to install whatever they want on their own device?

What about distributing your applications to others? Can that be done outside the app store?

Did you even finish reading his post? You don't need to join a domain in order to side-load, that's just one of the options.

As soon as you download Visual Studio Express (free) and install it, the OS is ready for side-loading of any application you want. Done deal.

After seeing how crApple has run their app store, with the blatant censorship of content, I want no part and it is an unacceptable assault on free speech and freedom to even give Microsoft that capability.

You're still free to install normal desktop applications, just like you were in Windows 7.

You're also free to install out-of-marketplace apps, as said above...

 

[c3141hf]

That's not what it says here :

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh852635.aspx

A.Domain joining sideloading only applies to the "enterprise edition" putting it outside the reach of most SMBs.

B.Any other edition requires a mysterious "sideloading key" which I cannot, after a substantial Google search, even figure out where one would get this.

C.I see nothing that says Visual Studio Express lets you distribute your own apps outside of the app store. Everyone downloading your app would have to sign it themselves. It also expires and must be "re-certified".

In addition, there is still the requirement to buy a code signing certificate (CAs are ripoffs; GnuPG is more secure and doesn't require you to pay someone hundreds of dollars to compute a few prime numbers) which the average user won't be able to handle. This infringes on the ability of someone to distribute an app that might otherwise offend the "delicate sensibilities" of Microsoft's censors.

The desktop does you no good on Windows RT tablets or even the tablet formfactor in general as I assume anyone using it as a tablet will spend most of their time in Metro.

 

[heatlesssun]

When you install Visual Studio you get the tool that generates the key, you have to sign in with a Microsoft account to do this, but there is no requirement to buy a certificate, everything is free unless you go with something beyond VS Express. If you install a an app package it would you the key setup on the local machine. It lasts for 30 days and when it expires you would simply generate a new one.

I never said this was a tool for real app distribution, its really for developers and hobbyists that want to share and exchange code. But in any case if Metro were a completely open environment it would be big target for malware developers and when it people started getting compromised everyone would start running around talking about how insecure Metro is. Open software distribution just isn't the factor that security is in the mobile space. If Metro were completely open it would be considered less secure than iOS but the media pundits.

 

[c3141hf]

When you install Visual Studio you get the tool that generates the key, you have to sign in with a Microsoft account to do this, but there is no requirement to buy a certificate, everything is free unless you go with something beyond VS Express. If you install a an app package it would you the key setup on the local machine. It lasts for 30 days and when it expires you would simply generate a new one.

I never said this was a tool for real app distribution, its really for developers and hobbyists that want to share and exchange code. But in any case if Metro were a completely open environment it would be big target for malware developers and when it people started getting compromised everyone would start running around talking about how insecure Metro is. Open software distribution just isn't the factor that security is in the mobile space. If Metro were completely open it would be considered less secure than iOS but the media pundits.

And I find that unacceptable.

I do not, for one second, buy that this is being done for "security" unless it is the "security" of Microsoft's pocketbooks.

What does censoring applications by content have to do with malware? What does charging 30% have to do with malware? What does allowing any tinpot despot of a government to block an app have to do with malware?

Let's just look at Apple's history to see how they've decided to fight "malware":

What does banning a dictionary because it contains bad words have to do with malware?

What does banning an application that shows US drone strikes have to do with malware?

What does blocking Buddhist apps in China have to do with malware?

What does banning a science magazine because it offends the delicate sensibilities of biblethumpers have to do with malware?

What does censoring books (the most objectionable action of all) have to do with malware?

What does censoring a newspaper to appease American puritanical tyranny have to do with malware?

What does banning a game critical of Apple's labor practices have to do with malware?

I could keep going but I think I've made my point. You would be naive to think that Microsoft would be any different. Even if they, themselves, didn't want to censor these things, there is nothing stopping governments from forcing them to censor now that they have the ability to decide what apps may or may not be distributed.

 

[heatlesssun]

And I find that unacceptable.

I do not, for one second, buy that this is being done for "security" unless it is the "security" of Microsoft's pocketbooks.

Look at all the bad publicity that Microsoft has received over the years over malware and security issues. Now compare that with the bad publicity that Apple has received over the issues you mention here. Not even close.

I'm not discounting what you're saying and you have valid points but you don't seem to be looking at marketplace realities either.

 

[Tudz]

I've simply put a lot of time, effort and resources into Windows 8, more than pretty much anyone here, and this is an enthusiast site, at least it used to be, so I talk about it a lot. Others put time and resources into other things are enthusiastic and experts about that stuff. What's the big damn deal? That's what people do around here.

I challenge you to find anyone else on the forum who posts both with such volume and also so single mindedly. I doubt you'll find anyone who frequently and repeatedly makes 30+ posts on a topic per day for months on end who doesn't also post on other topics.

You are most certainly an exception, most people hit a point where they feel like they've said their peace either attacking or defending a topic, you don't.

The "big damn deal", well, there is none, I just tire of reading W8 threads that you dominate, I'd like to see the path a thread might take if you weren't posting in it.

Its not a matter of me liking Windows 8 or not, I'm just trying to learn and that takes time and effort

Care to elaborate? What aspects of W8 are you trying to learn that takes time and effort? I've never been a massive IT nerd, but Windows of any shape or form has never been something I considered to take a like time to neither learn nor master. Perhaps the programs themselves might take some mastering, but surely that hasn't changed from W7 to W8.

Personally I don't think your time with W8 makes your opinion more valid than anyone elses' (unless that person is so unfamiliar they don't even have the facts). None the less I'm interested what you are learning in W8 that is taking time and effort that matches your post volume.

I can either adapt and learn or bitch and complain and be left behind and I choose the former.

This attitude that people fear change or can't learn is false. Most the people complaining about W8 on this forum have learned both Windows GUI's, Linux GUI's and in many cases CLI, something that takes far more adapting and learning than 7->8. People don't want to learn because they don't like the direction it is going, you clearly love the direction it is going so your comment about "bitch and complain" is simply thin and patronising as if you are taking the high road and others aren't.

 

[heatlesssun]

I challenge you to find anyone else on the forum who posts both with such volume and also so single mindedly. I doubt you'll find anyone who frequently and repeatedly makes 30+ posts on a topic per day for months on end who doesn't also post on other topics.

I find it odd why someone who doesn't care for or like Windows 8 would care about what I post on the subject.

I'm constantly working with Windows 8 right now and always finding out new stuff. Just got the new Synaptics touch pad drivers for my Lenovo x220t. One piece of touch hardware that a lot of people forget about that's on virtually every laptop when talking about Windows 8. Of course you'll call me a fanboy for saying this but it's shocking just how much better the track pad is now in Windows 8. Its much more responsive. Flicking through Metro apps from the left side works just like it does on touch screens as well as flicking from the right to bring up the Charms Bar.

So while you're talking about my post count at least I am trying to discuss specifics of what's actually in Windows 8.

 

[DrDoug]

... You are most certainly an exception, most people hit a point where they feel like they've said their peace either attacking or defending a topic, you don't.

QFT. This is what is so striking. Add to that the constant belittling of the opinions of others, the incessant boasting of the number of devices owned that are running Win8, the alleged level of experience that should leave everyone shameful of their ignorance and what do you have?

A shill.

You have no idea what my experience is and I have no desire to state it because this is the internet, people lie on it every day and I haven't got the time to waste defending my knowledge and experience because you want to engage in a digital schlong contest. You boast about what you do and how great you are but all I see is someone with a lot of hardware that runs Win8. Your laser-like focus on Win8 and your having to dominate any discussion about it that turns negative tells me that you have an agenda to push.

I dismiss people with agendas because they are not to be trusted.

 

[wtburnette]

I don't have an axe to grind, I just think the design decisions they've made with 8 are bonkers.

I think that about sums it up for me. Yes, to everyone arguing, we know it's a hybrid OS, it's just not a good hybrid OS. I respect the opinion of anyone who likes Win8, I just don't happen to like it myself and there are quite a few people who feel the same way. Guess what? There is no right and wrong here, it's all just personal preference. Those who like Win8 will pick it up and be happy and those who don't will either skip it as the WinME of this generation, or will pick it up and use an add on like the one mentioned in this thread and make the OS work for them. Either group is still "right" for their own purposes.

 

[heatlesssun]

I dismiss people with agendas because they are not to be trusted.

There's a lot of bad information being posted here. Last week Wrench00 was going on about the onscreen keyboard's lack of a Windows key and I pointed out to him that the onscreen keyboard has a full mode with it but he kept repeating the same incorrect information. The issue was that he is on the Release Preview and there's Control Panel setting that needs to be enabled in that version, in the RTM that's setting is the default and I pointed that out to him. So even though he isn't a Windows 8 fan I didn't just sit there and question his agenda and tried to provide him some correct information and I did take the time to help determine his problem.

So whatever my agenda yours and others isn't any more pure. I am at least talking about Windows 8 with some details and specifics and not just bashing it or criticizing others' post counts.

 

[SkribbelKat]

QFT. This is what is so striking. Add to that the constant belittling of the opinions of others, the incessant boasting of the number of devices owned that are running Win8, the alleged level of experience that should leave everyone shameful of their ignorance and what do you have?

A shill.

You have no idea what my experience is and I have no desire to state it because this is the internet, people lie on it every day and I haven't got the time to waste defending my knowledge and experience because you want to engage in a digital schlong contest. You boast about what you do and how great you are but all I see is someone with a lot of hardware that runs Win8. Your laser-like focus on Win8 and your having to dominate any discussion about it that turns negative tells me that you have an agenda to push.

I dismiss people with agendas because they are not to be trusted.

I went there with Heatless last week and said mostly similar things. Nothing regarding anyone's presented image is a thing that can be proven with any supportable evidence. Photographic evidence is no more reliable than any other form of proof and his claims of 20+ years of experience ring as suspicious as someone with as much professional background in tablet computing would probably be smart enough to shut up eventually.

Honestly, I saw a few posts of his from 2009 when searcing for something not directly related. They were focused solely on tablet computing aspects of Windows 7 and how wonderful it was that Microsoft was adding certain features. I'm sure that if we go far enough back, we'll find a consistent history of that sort of thing. What you have is a person with an obsession that is on the border (or across the threshold) of something that can be given a clinical diagnosis as a real problem.

 

[heatlesssun]

What you have is a person with an obsession that is on the border (or across the threshold) of something that can be given a clinical diagnosis as a real problem.

You're becoming the monster that you chase. What's also obsessive are people continuously counting my post and making a medical determinations about strangers. In any case, you guys are talking about everything EXCEPT the subject matter in the threads. People are continuously posting in threads about something they don't like and aren't using and I'm the one that's obsessed? Remove the mote from you own eye first.

So to actually talk about Windows 8, something that some of you obviously have no interest in doing, has anyone with a track pad and the RTM gotten the track pad edge swipe features work? As I said earlier I didn't know that older track pads were going to have support for this though the support seems to be limited. I can only switch Metro apps from the left edge, there's no ability to pull in an app like with a touch screen or do the swipe in swipe back motion to bring up the Metro app bar.

 

[SkribbelKat]

You're becoming the monster that you chase.

At least you recognize your own insanity. You give yourself too much credit though if you feel you're worth chasing. Individuals here are merely attempting to reason with you and the collective of their voices are being twisted in your mind into a single voice that you apply to all persons whe are only here to help. For instance, I don't count your posts, yet you attribute that to me because you're feeling so cornered that anyone saying anything at all is most certainly saying the same things as everyone else even if they haven't done so yet.

At this point, I would think that the forum's more reasonable people have distanced themselves from you and the product you treasure as your precious because they don't care to associate themselves with the oddity of your love for it.

Also, this thread is about restoring the start button to Windows 8, so unless you have an interst in that topic, you're as far off as the rest of us by asking about trackpad support.

 

[heatlesssun]

You give yourself too much credit though if you feel you're worth chasing.

And yet there you go again.

Also, this thread is about restoring the start button to Windows 8, so unless you have an interst in that topic, you're as far off as the rest of us by asking about trackpad support.

Actually there is a very direct connection here. At least on my x220t when you slide in from the right and hold a split second, the Start Screen is activated even when Start8 is installed, at least with the defaults. So if you're using these gestures it could be kind of confusing to have two different "Starts".

As much as people call me a shill I have said on many occasions that if you're trying to turn Windows 8 into Windows 7, you might be better off with Windows 7. I've never a heard a shill say something like this. I wasn't aware that even on older hardware that these gestures would be at least partially supported. As simple flick brings on the Start Screen with a track pad without moving the mouse pointer.

If one is upgrading to Windows 8 or getting a new Windows 8 laptop with no touch screen at least be aware that there's much more gesture control by default in Windows 8 than 7 and all I am saying is that you should at least take a look at this stuff before just turning Windows 8 into Windows 7.

 

[Greggy_D]

I find it odd why someone who doesn't care for or like Windows 8 would care about what I post on the subject.

I find it odd that someone who likes Windows 8 would care about the posts of people who do not like it. Ironic isn't it?

 

[heatlesssun]

I find it odd that someone who likes Windows 8 would care about the posts of people who do not like it. Ironic isn't it?

Fair enough, I was simply curious why people keep posting in a threads about a product that they don't like or plan to use.

 

[Raudulfr]

Fair enough, I was simply curious why people keep posting in a threads about a product that they don't like or plan to use.

Except this thread is about Start8, NOT Windows 8.

 

[heatlesssun]

Except this thread is about Start8, NOT Windows 8.

And I think I'm the only one that actually bothered to talk about Start8 in relation to a new feature in Windows 8, best of both worlds.

So I just did a quick test of Start8, Class Shell and ViStart. None of them with in their current versions seem to deal with the right edge swipe on a track pad, and that's a input device probably more common than a mouse these days. With each one installed the right edge swipe still brings up the Start Screen. I am simply pointing out that this is something you need to look at when considering Start Menu replacements.

 

[Tudz]

You're becoming the monster that you chase. What's also obsessive are people continuously counting my post and making a medical determinations about strangers.

Indeed you give yourself too much credit. Yes, I've checked your post count on occasion. It takes all of 30 seconds to see how many posts you've made in the past 24 hours and to note that they are ALL in threads about W8 and W8 tablets. You know why? It's not because I have some special interest in you, it's because YOU POST SO FUCKING MUCH on the topic that I can't read a W8 thread without seeing another episode of the HLS show, so I think "geeze, I wonder how many posts he's actually made and if he posts about anything else". I haven't spent any deal of time actually counting ALL your posts or anything like that, just out of curiosity a couple of times I've checked your "posts in past 24 hours". I know you've been posting on it for 3 or 4 months because I was discussing W8 with you a month before I went overseas and I've now been overseas for 2 months. It doesn't take obsession to notice the bloody obvious that you post a lot, have been posting a lot and post almost single mindedly on W8 and W8 tablets.

People are continuously posting in threads about something they don't like and aren't using and I'm the one that's obsessed?

Yes, yes you are. You act as if people posting negatively toward W8 are a single entity. They aren't. You, however, are a single entity. There's a difference between thousands of posts of negativity spread across a few dozen people and thousands of single minded posts from a single person on a single topic, the latter is what we call obsession

The reason I'm posting these things is because it IS on topic, the topic of W8, the reason it is on topic is because unfortunately through sheer volume of posts you are inexorably linked to the topic of W8 on [H]. I want to read some W8 threads that aren't "the HLS show". It's not out of obsession about you I'm posting this post, it's out of interest of W8.

 

[heatlesssun]

Indeed you give yourself too much credit.

Well here's where I do deserve credit. I made a post about a very specific thing, new to Windows 8 that relates to the functionality of this tool on laptops with track pads, a very common input device, more so than even dedicated mice You didn't even try to move on.