Snowden Nominated For Nobel Peace Prize

magnetik said:
he didn't exactly run to Russia... he was stuck in a transit zone for over a month with no where to go until Putin decided he could stay.
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And what do you think was going on for that month? Putin work in the KGB for 16 years, he's something of an expert at this. Don't you think the Russians were questioning and vetting him during that time? They probably know how many times Snowden has taken a shit in his life. And the Russians had to have put some pressure on Snowden to give up some good info using a leverage sending him back to the US if he didn't cough something up. That's Intelligence 101 and the Russians wouldn't be doing their job if they weren't trying to squeeze whatever they could out of Snowden. Certainly if the situation were reversed we'd expect our guys to squeeze whatever they could from a Russian with laptops full of secrets.
 
heatlesssun said:
And what do you think was going on for that month? Putin work in the KGB for 16 years, he's something of an expert at this. Don't you think the Russians were questioning and vetting him during that time? They probably know how many times Snowden has taken a shit in his life. And the Russians had to have put some pressure on Snowden to give up some good info using a leverage sending him back to the US if he didn't cough something up. That's Intelligence 101 and the Russians wouldn't be doing their job if they weren't trying to squeeze whatever they could out of Snowden. Certainly if the situation were reversed we'd expect our guys to squeeze whatever they could from a Russian with laptops full of secrets.
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You missed the point. I didn't say he didn't give them information. The point is that he didn't plan on going to Russia if he was stuck in transit area with no country to take him. It's completely different then the way you're stating.
 
magnetik said:
You missed the point. I didn't say he didn't give them information. The point is that he didn't plan on going to Russia if he was stuck in transit area with no country to take him. It's completely different then the way you're stating.
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A guy that just stole a bunch of classified material doesn't just hop on a plane without a plan if he's that worried about getting caught. Snowden is obviously concerned about his image and he wouldn't have just jumped on a plane and headed directly to Moscow, that would have undermined his credibility more than it's already been. The more he looks like a helpless victim being pursued by the evil US, the better it looks for him, and the Russians.
 
I think most intelligent people can agree that welfare programs and food stamps got us into this mess..
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I think this is just the start.

I also think forking over research dollars to universities that will do "inspiring research" on topics that back an agenda, like global warming, violent media, gun violence, I am eating so I won't continue the list, but it's longer then this.
 
heatlesssun said:
A guy that just stole a bunch of classified material doesn't just hop on a plane without a plan if he's that worried about getting caught. Snowden is obviously concerned about his image and he wouldn't have just jumped on a plane and headed directly to Moscow, that would have undermined his credibility more than it's already been. The more he looks like a helpless victim being pursued by the evil US, the better it looks for him, and the Russians.
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It's too bad that he has to be concerned about his image. Unfortunately, since our government plays the media game, he has to as well if he wants a chance.
 
heatlesssun said:
My dad was a WW II veteran and my mother lived in that time as well as young adults. If you think that Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were no threat, you'd have a hard time making that case from people all across the globe that lived in that time.
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Because they believed the lie at the time that makes the lie retroactively a truth?
 
Yeah, they wanted you to be scared, that was exactly the point. There was never any real danger in 1942 and the "US Government" (corrupt business/family elites) knew this with 100% confidence. I dare you to argue with me about this,
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I'm your Huckaberry :D

Let's dance.
 
chockomonkey said:
It's too bad that he has to be concerned about his image. Unfortunately, since our government plays the media game, he has to as well if he wants a chance.
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An American citizen defecting to Russia with a bunch of secrets is a media game regardless.
 
There was never any real danger in 1942....
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Of course their was. In 1942 Germany hadn't started loosing anywhere yet, Japan was on a roll until Midway and that was June so the year was half over. Let's really look at it.

Here is a great map that shows how things were sitting in '42.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Europe_under_Nazi_domination.png

There was plenty to fear, what if England had collapsed?
What if the Soviets had sued for peace?
What if Hitler had sent just one more German Mechanized Division to Rommel in Africa.

And the really big one, what of Japan hadn't attacked Pearl
 
requiem99 said:
Because they believed the lie at the time that makes the lie retroactively a truth?
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But neither you nor I saw firsthand the death and destruction caused by this conflict. Its easy to retroactively call a bunch of things lies but its much harder to make that case in the middle of a war zone.
 
Requiem99, you gotta stop man, don't even try to say there was nothing to fear back in 1942 nor for decades after.

Any idea someone might have that it was fabricated by the US Government is a complete unfounded delusion.
 
The point is that he didn't plan on going to Russia if he was stuck in transit area with no country to take him. It's completely different then the way you're stating.
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Well, except that's exactly what he did, he stole the goods and jumped on a pane for Hong Kong where he sat in a hotel and started pumping stuff out to the Guardian.

But what's even better, the idea that he was "stuck in a transit area in Russia". Tell me something, why would he leave Hong Kong for Russia to begin with, unless someone Russian suggested it?

Snowden flew to Hong Kong from his home in Hawaii on May 20, 2013....
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden

A series of exposés beginning June 5, 2013 revealed Internet surveillance programs
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden

Snowden arrived in Moscow on June 23 ....
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/report-snowden-stayed-at-russian-consulate-while-in-hong-kong/2013/08/26/8237cf9a-0e39-11e3-a2b3-5e107edf9897_story.html
]
Over a month in Hong Kong, and we get this now .....
....he spent several days living at the Russian Consulate in Hong Kong, a Moscow newspaper reported Monday.
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/report-snowden-stayed-at-russian-consulate-while-in-hong-kong/2013/08/26/8237cf9a-0e39-11e3-a2b3-5e107edf9897_story.html


I have a related question, what happens in a few weeks if we start getting new "Snowden Documents" that are Russian fabrications? How are we going to know? Who is going to believe the NSA if they claim the documents are false?

For that matter, what if it's already started? The newest releases don't even fall into the same ball park and have no bearing at all on US Privacy Rights issues, none. At least one of the documents specifically stated that they were reporting on things that happen in other countries and not domestically so not even the hint of actual misuse of power or abuse.

So when does it start? When will the real documents stop, and the fake ones begin?
 
lcpiper said:
Any idea someone might have that it was fabricated by the US Government is a complete unfounded delusion.
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How in the hell did the US fabricate Japan invading China? Or Germany France and Poland? Even if you believe that Pearl Harbor was "fabricated" there was already a hell of lot of killing going on long before then across much of Europe and Asia.
 
lcpiper said:
So when does it start? When will the real documents stop, and the fake ones begin?
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And his is why Snowden going to Russia seriously undermines the idea that he's a selfless whistleblower instead of a self interested defector. We don't know what he has, what he's told the Russians and possibly other governments and organizations and if he's getting paid. If one doesn't trust the US government then why would you trust a guy who defected to Russia?
 
heatlesssun said:
And his is why Snowden going to Russia seriously undermines the idea that he's a selfless whistleblower instead of a self interested defector. We don't know what he has, what he's told the Russians and possibly other governments and organizations and if he's getting paid. If one doesn't trust the US government then why would you trust a guy who defected to Russia?
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I would trust almost anyone over the United States government.
 
chockomonkey said:
I would trust almost anyone over the United States government.
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Funny thing is though, even the choice between dealing with the US Government or the Russian Government, I think most are going to pick Door #1. Cynicism can become absurdity.
 
heatlesssun said:
Funny thing is though, even the choice between dealing with the US Government or the Russian Government, I think most are going to pick Door #1. Cynicism can become absurdity.
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Yea... neither are a good choice.

You have to realize though that he was forced to go somewhere that would be able to protect him, against the US gov. That limits him a lot.
 
chockomonkey said:
Yea... neither are a good choice.

You have to realize though that he was forced to go somewhere that would be able to protect him, against the US gov. That limits him a lot.
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No, he didn't have to go anywhere. He is not the first person by a long shot that stood up to power and didn't run. What if the all people who put themselves in harms way to defend this country decided one day they didn't want to make those sacrifices and all went to Russia? What if Martin Luther King decided that the heat was getting much and decided to run off to the Soviet Union? He broke a lot of laws too and was not exactly everyone bestest friend at the time.
 
lcpiper said:
Crazy as it sounds, ... (cause really I think it was a desperate moved because Booz Allen Hamilton was going to fire him for lying about his education) ...
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... character assassination though or truth? ..As crazy as it sounds, I wouldn't put it past a government organization like the NSA to discreet someone that publicly embarrassed them and made their lives/work hell.
 
heatlesssun said:
No, he didn't have to go anywhere. He is not the first person by a long shot that stood up to power and didn't run. What if the all people who put themselves in harms way to defend this country decided one day they didn't want to make those sacrifices and all went to Russia? What if Martin Luther King decided that the heat was getting much and decided to run off to the Soviet Union? He broke a lot of laws too and was not exactly everyone bestest friend at the time.
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People now have demonstrated a greater apathy than previous generations.

We also have a larger media machine than ever before.

As such, like I said before:

chockomonkey said:
If I were in his shoes I'd probably do the same thing. I'd want to believe that staying in America would be okay and that the people of the United States would back me up. But as I value my life and freedom, I'd have to suck it up and run away because I fear the power of our government and the apathy of our countrymen.
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The US government is always committing crimes....its called their game of politics. Been going on for 200yrs or so. No problem with calling them on it.

Its funny how some people support others based on some media BS they watch. For one, I can tell you personally that what the media reports is typically different than what really happens....ever think about that senator that owns that corporation that owns that news company..... Second, Snowden reveals information, which if in good faith is great, and then runs and hides with China and Russia. Its easy to understand why you would have to run after you stole classified information, whether it is for the good or bad; no denying that is illegal and treasonous. Nobody wonders if he is just feeding us crap to stay in the spotlight while he feeds the real information to China and Russia.

I think this situation is nearly as simple as people and the press want to make it out to be.
 
deadrody said:
Indeed. That would require a Repubican was doing it, I guess. So if Obama is spying on the American public, in clear violation of the law and the constitution, that's ok ? Because... Obamacare or something ?

Spying on US citizens without express court approval is illegal and unconstitutional. It doesn't matter WHO is President.
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Kinda think that's what Heatlesun said. It's conservatives that have been OK with this for decades. The left has generally been against it. Then again, this really isn't a left right issue, it's an authoritarian vs libertarian issue (not be confused with the Libertarian party) and there are at least as many libertarians on the left as the right and quite a few near the middle (FYI, in the U.S. the middle = left wing communist radical while actually being on the left is beyond the looking glass).
 
lcpiper said:
^ LOL.

While I don't agree with this;


I also don't agree with Jarod666 either.

I think Snowden was a looser, a liar, and a cheat
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No do doubt he loosed a lot of documents from the NSA... oh wait, did you mean "loser"?

Seriously folks, not just Icpiper, learn how to fucking spell the word. Messing up its and it's or to, too and two can be excused, but looser vs loser is not, especially when you're attempting (and failing) to call someone else a loser!
 
chockomonkey said:
Good question. In the America i want to live in though, the current solution would never even be considered. We aren't thinking hard enough--there are always other ways.


I'm not so sure. If positioned right, he could have been the first president to tell the truth and work at fixing up our runaway government =P
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Seriously? Republicans voted against their own bills, because Obama was for them. Republicans hate Obamacare, even though it mirrors the Republican marketplace alternative to the healthcare plan Clinton proposed 20 years ago.

These are the same guys (maybe a few women) who had no problem with these programs when they were written about during the Bush administration. I don't know if the people arguing against Snowden on this board are mostly Democratic or Republican voters, but anyone who didn't care in 2007 and does now or did then and doesn't now is just a partisan schmuck.
 
heatlesssun said:
LOL! I love how people here with anonymous identities label others as out of touch with reality. Telling a 46 year old black man that he's out of touch we he's worked most of his life, never asked for government assistance and pays a ton of taxes and doesn't bother anyone is about as out of touch as it gets.
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Wait a second. You're 46 and you hid under the desk in school? Really? I assumed you were at least 10-20 years older, based on that story. FYI, that is not how it was all over the U.S.
 
aardvark sandwich said:
We have a pretty wide swath of Americans on food stamps with full time jobs right now.
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Well maybe we wouldn't if Republicans hadn't systematically worked to dismantle unions and consistently fought increases in the minimum wage. Walmart could pay employees more, but unless they have to, they'll just keep the profits. It's not just Walmart, but they're a great example of a hugely successful company that pays poorly and then tells employees to apply for food stamps.
 
westrock2000 said:
I said right there I was working for a grocery store. It was Kroger. Minimum wage was $5.15 and I made $4.25 an hour as a "sacker". The reasoning was that they were allowed to pay less for 3 months after my start date as a probationary period and that also as a sacker I was in the unique situation at the store that I could receive tips.

Let me tell you, women who buy $300 worth of groceries for $100 that fit in 2 shopping carts don't tip for shit. And this was the late 90's. Even $100 of normal groceries was a lot of food.
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Tipping a grocery bagger? I've never heard of it, nor have I seen it (or even heard of it before today).
 
heatlesssun said:
He released classified material, that's a crime. I'm not saying what Snowden did wasn't the right thing to do, but he certainly broke the law and running off to Russia cast a lot of doubt about that he was really up to. The Russian government has no love for freedom or liberty. So we are all supposed to take his word that he hasn't been debriefing Russian intelligence with goodies that he's been keeping for himself to use as leverage or monetary gain?

My point was what if Obama had done this. He certainly would have been impeached in the House and probably convicted in the Senate. And rightfully so. You can't have a sitting President leaking classified material and then fleeing the country.
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The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Thus, Russia is Snowden's friend. He went where he thought he had a good chance of being allowed to stay and not be extradited back to the U.S.

Even the guy who's writing the stories won't come back to the U.S. at this point. I don't particularly like that he released documents about spying on allies (I think all countries do this), but overall, I'm very happy that this information is out there, and that more is to come. Our government deserves this. Both parties have allowed this crap to go on for too long and it's got to stop. CALEA was already bad enough, but the NSA has taken things to another level and there's not even a law that authorized it.
 
lcpiper said:
I have a related question, what happens in a few weeks if we start getting new "Snowden Documents" that are Russian fabrications? How are we going to know? Who is going to believe the NSA if they claim the documents are false?

For that matter, what if it's already started? The newest releases don't even fall into the same ball park and have no bearing at all on US Privacy Rights issues, none. At least one of the documents specifically stated that they were reporting on things that happen in other countries and not domestically so not even the hint of actual misuse of power or abuse.

So when does it start? When will the real documents stop, and the fake ones begin?
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Snowden doesn't have any papers. The reporter has access to them and decides what should or shouldn't be released and if something is released, what is redacted.

Not everything that was taken will end up in the Times or Guardian.
 
heatlesssun said:
No, he didn't have to go anywhere. He is not the first person by a long shot that stood up to power and didn't run. What if the all people who put themselves in harms way to defend this country decided one day they didn't want to make those sacrifices and all went to Russia? What if Martin Luther King decided that the heat was getting much and decided to run off to the Soviet Union? He broke a lot of laws too and was not exactly everyone bestest friend at the time.
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You don't think moving to Russia is a sacrifice? Seriously, where would you rather live, Hawaii or Russia? I think I wrote this earlier, but even the Guardian's reporter won't come back to the U.S., because he's not sure that he wouldn't be arrested.

Sorry, but there's absolutely no doubt that if Snowden had stayed, he'd have been jailed. Maybe he'd when, but the trial would probably take years to start. The government would say that it couldn't be open, because of national security and he'd be convicted.

Sheesh, the head of the NSA lied to congress and I haven't heard anything about contempt of congress. I guess that charge is reserved for former athletes that deny taking steroids.
 
nilepez said:
You don't think moving to Russia is a sacrifice? Seriously, where would you rather live, Hawaii or Russia?
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If I were getting compensated in Russia I well beyond what I could get in Hawaii, I'd be in Russia. The public simply doesn't know what Snowden may or not be getting out of all of this, that's the problem here. I've said from the beginning that I have no problem with what Snowden did, and I think that's well agreed on globally. The question is was it a selfless or selfish act, and there's no answer to that question. The key questions in many crimes are opportunity and motive. Obviously Snowden had the opportunity or we would not be here. But what was the motive? There's just a lot of questions about a person espousing freedom and government oppression willing to relocate to a region where that government has never had a problem with quashing freedom and being oppressive.
 
heatlesssun said:
If I were getting compensated in Russia I well beyond what I could get in Hawaii, I'd be in Russia. The public simply doesn't know what Snowden may or not be getting out of all of this, that's the problem here. I've said from the beginning that I have no problem with what Snowden did, and I think that's well agreed on globally. The question is was it a selfless or selfish act, and there's no answer to that question. The key questions in many crimes are opportunity and motive. Obviously Snowden had the opportunity or we would not be here. But what was the motive? There's just a lot of questions about a person espousing freedom and government oppression willing to relocate to a region where that government has never had a problem with quashing freedom and being oppressive.
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I think the fact that he's been trying to get asylum in various other countries almost from day one. I don't think there's any doubt that Russia was a sacrifice. Furthermore, let's not forget he's coming at this from a libertarian POV. I'm sure he's got issues with Russia too, but if he stayed here, he'd be in jail. Sorry, but he did us a favor and staying in the U.S. where the government would almost certainly claim virtually everything was classified or posed a risk to national security (see every defendant in Guantanamo).

Until proven otherwise, IMO, he's a patriot, but he's not Jesus Christ. If we really cared about Russia's involvement, we'd just wave prosecution on all of it. We won't, so he's not coming back here.
 
nilepez said:
Well maybe we wouldn't if Republicans hadn't systematically worked to dismantle unions and consistently fought increases in the minimum wage. Walmart could pay employees more, but unless they have to, they'll just keep the profits. It's not just Walmart, but they're a great example of a hugely successful company that pays poorly and then tells employees to apply for food stamps.
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This is just one aspect of dependency of a government program. Its the program itself that is the issue, along with manipulated market conditions that are minimum wage laws. This is like a fight-club spin-off; the first rule about government programs is you don't talk about government programs. I can hardly blame a symptom for the cause, or a private entity exploiting conditions created and enforced by the government, even if it is not as the government intended. That simply shows the diminished forethought of the program itself.

It would literally be irrational for Walmart not to do this.
 
aardvark sandwich said:
It would literally be irrational for Walmart not to do this.
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So then it would be irrational for an individual not to seek the same kinds of government support, correct? In a free market economy, no matter the state of individuals or companies every fends for themselves and everyone is better for it?

The heart and soul of conservative philosophy that no one really believes. Not when it really matters.
 
Yes, individuals would seek handouts, but they could hardly be considered a part of a free market with a straight face.

I can assure you I believe it.
 
nilepez said:
Sheesh, the head of the NSA lied to congress and I haven't heard anything about contempt of congress. I guess that charge is reserved for former athletes that deny taking steroids.
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I would expect at least a dozen US senators to go to jail for letting this happen, dereliction of duty, high treason....
 
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