Snowden Nominated For Nobel Peace Prize

[heatlesssun]

If Obama got one I think Snowden deserves like 6 of the things

And if Obama had released the same information as Snowden and then fled to Russia everyone here praising Snowden and accusing Obama of treason would still be accusing Obama of treason. Of course having the sitting President run off to Russia is a lot different than a private citizen doing it, that said, had Obama released this information and stayed without question he would have been impeached and probably convicted in the Senate.

 

[lcpiper]

Hey, Iran called. They want their supreme leader back!

^ LOL.

While I don't agree with this;

If Obama got one I think Snowden deserves like 6 of the things

I also don't agree with Jarod666 either.

I think Snowden was a looser, a liar, and a cheat. I think he stole data on these programs in Japan when he worked for Dell. I think he wanted to be someone important so bad that he lied to get his next job in Hawaii with Booz Allen Hamilton, he realized they were going to catch him and he stole again, all he could, and ran his ass off laying all the smoke he could make.

Most of the released documents were about things that we actually already knew about. All of this is an extension of the arguments against warrant-less wiretapping from the 9/11 commission days. What these documents with their official classified markings did was act as lightening rods to focus wide ranging discontent on a Target that has a hard time defending itself because the secrecy that covers it also makes it hard to speak plainly about the issues. I think that in reality Snowden has hurt us far more then he has helped us and we will be paying for that damage for a very long time.

At the same time I think he deserves the full privileged of justice and fairness just as anyone else would for any other illegal act. If he is a traitor then he should be tried and found a traitor, but until someone says "Guilty", he is still just a suspected traitor and should be treated as such.

 

[chockomonkey]

You seem to forget that the gov't of the US is of the people, by the people, and for the people. Nothing the gov't does is beyond the reach of the people themselves and those that makeup the gov't are not some special class that is beyond reproach. They serve US.

In theory..

It feels more and more like I'm forced by the system to serve the people who are outside the system.

Oh, and the Terrorism, I'll say it again, Terrorism is the smallest possible part of the picture so open up your mind to the reality that there is many other threats to our country then just Terrorism. Terrorism is not the only card in the game.

Yet it's the card they're playing to get the support for all this nonsense.

The NSA and other government agencies are there to prevent something from happening, not go after them after the fact. They are doing there job they way they always have, just now it is much more encompassing and with the information of the www and the instant nature of communication there is a need for them to collect data in real time. Do I like it, no. Do I understand why they do it, yes.

When Andrew Jackson fought the British in New Orleans in 1812, the war had been over for 2 weeks already but no one knew because word hadn't yet reached them. Today's information society is unlike any that has preceded it and as more and more information is carried electronically then the need to be able to intercept and identify in real time becomes much more necessary. In the 1940's our mail was opened and went through, especially the military's and other influential members of society. Why? Because threats could be identified and stopped before they ever happened if we knew of them in advance.

Intelligence agencies all across the world operate like this, to think any other 1st or second world nations doesn't is incredibly short sighted. As long as there are proper checks and balances in place, I have to admit as much as I don't like this or the Patriot Act, then I'm for the system. It is no different than any other time or period, just newer and different technology but the underlying strategies and goals are the same.

Have you seen minority report?

 

[Outamyhead]

I'd be laughing if they did it so he can come claim and and be extradited to the US. On another note the peace prize is becoming quite the joke.

Sweden is neutral territory.

 

[HFBallad]

Obama and Gore both got the Nobel Prize as a way of sticking a tongue out at Dubya. So, in a way, Dubya won two Nobel Prizes for US.

 

[chockomonkey]

How can they bridge the gap between the physical world and the digital data world when the only incriminating contact between individuals is digital?

Good question. In the America i want to live in though, the current solution would never even be considered. We aren't thinking hard enough--there are always other ways.

And if Obama had released the same information as Snowden and then fled to Russia everyone here praising Snowden and accusing Obama of treason would still be accusing Obama of treason. Of course having the sitting President run off to Russia is a lot different than a private citizen doing it, that said, had Obama released this information and stayed without question he would have been impeached and probably convicted in the Senate.

I'm not so sure. If positioned right, he could have been the first president to tell the truth and work at fixing up our runaway government =P

 

[heatlesssun]

Obama and Gore both got the Nobel Prize as a way of sticking a tongue out at Dubya. So, in a way, Dubya won two Nobel Prizes for US.

The thing about Gore getting the prize, while man made climate change is generally rejected in right wing politics so are evolution and big bang and most any science that conflicts directly with religious principles. The inconvenient truths go well beyond just climate change on the right these days.

 

[heatlesssun]

I'm not so sure. If positioned right, he could have been the first president to tell the truth and work at fixing up our runaway government =P

I'm absolutely sure. Obama was called a traitor long before he become President. I don't see how the people that have said that he's the worst President in history and dangerous to our national security would all of a sudden back him up when he would have plainly and obviously breech security protocol.

 

[lcpiper]

Sweden is neutral territory.

Sweden claims neutrality in world politics, wars and such. It has nothing to do with Law Enforcement and Snowden is accused of breaking US Law. I don't think Sweden can or will protect him if he goes there.

 

[Retronym]

Not only does this asshat not deserve the peace prize, someone needs to find him, torture him for whatever they can get out him, and the he needs to be publically executed for treason. His body needs to be dumped off the fantail of a destroyer just like Osama bin Laden's was. The would needs to shut the hell up about spying and snooping and just get on with their lives. The NSA has been doing this for a long time, needs to be doing it, and needs the autonomy to continue to do what they are doing.

 

[lcpiper]

Yet it's the card they're playing to get the support for all this nonsense.

Yep, but it's also the same one being used to attack them and let's be real. They don't want to talk about anything they do because secrecy is important to their success. So it is not in the NSA's best interest to start crowing about all the other things they do. They already are suffering damage as it is. If someone made them open up and outline every program to the detail that this one has been exposed to, it could cripple the organization for decades.

 

[lcpiper]

Good question. In the America i want to live in though, the current solution would never even be considered. We aren't thinking hard enough--there are always other ways.

cockomonkey, I 'am glad you said this because I have said it here several time before.

Part of the problem is the architecture of how we handle digital communications. If that architectural model were changed in a manner that supported sending data from one person, to another, without broadcasting it to anyone who might want to listen, then maybe we could return to a more explicit level of expectation of privacy.

So then there is the next question, how? And even more to the point, the government can't make this happen, only business can. I think business is so far into the big data idea and a grand future where we all willingly let them into our lives to such a degree that they can turn us all into little perfect consumers. We have to find a way to get them on board or it won't happen.

Others watched Minority Report too, and they really liked what they saw.

 

[lcpiper]

The thing about Gore getting the prize, while man made climate change is generally rejected in right wing politics so are evolution and big bang and most any science that conflicts directly with religious principles. The inconvenient truths go well beyond just climate change on the right these days.

Nope, not even close to reality. I have no idea why so many people seem to buy off on the idea that all right wingers are religious zealots. It's much more accurate to say that any group that shares common principles will look to support and thereby gain the support of the political faction that is most likely to successfully back their views.

I vote Republican because historically a strong Republican Congress with a Republican President has the greatest support for small government. They will definitely back the corporations and the little guy might get the short end of the stick, but the stick is being held by the Company and the Worker, not by the Government.

I go to church for weddings and funerals and that's it. I don't ever try and push my religious beliefs on anyone, I'll make my own deal with God Thank You, the rest can butt out I can speak for myself.

I know I am not alone. The only reason you don't see very many like me is because when it comes to religion we mostly keep our traps shut and keep to ourselves. I raised my kids this way to, told them it was a personal choice, one they were to make for themselves. I thought them that they should choose what they are comfortable with and I hope that my view ingrained within them a tolerance of others who choose different them they do.

I hope.

 

[lcpiper]

I need to stop typing, starting to type like I drink.

 

[heatlesssun]

Nope, not even close to reality. I have no idea why so many people seem to buy off on the idea that all right wingers are religious zealots. It's much more accurate to say that any group that shares common principles will look to support and thereby gain the support of the political faction that is most likely to successfully back their views.

Go to a GOP convention and see how what the reaction would be if the subjection of evolution comes up. I'm not saying that it's all of the right or even a majority of it. But this is the age of being primaried, particularly on the right and Republican primary voters a extremely conservative and religious these days.

I vote Republican because historically a strong Republican Congress with a Republican President has the greatest support for small government. They will definitely back the corporations and the little guy might get the short end of the stick, but the stick is being held by the Company and the Worker, not by the Government.

Small government is great, until corporations and businesses collapse and millions lose their jobs and the jobs that are left don't even pay enough to not qualify for food stamps. Be it left or right, decent jobs with decent pay is a critical issue, much more so for the average person than government spying.

 

[G1. Killer]

Go to a GOP convention and see how what the reaction would be if the subjection of evolution comes up. I'm not saying that it's all of the right or even a majority of it. But this is the age of being primaried, particularly on the right and Republican primary voters a extremely conservative and religious these days.



Small government is great, until corporations and businesses collapse and millions lose their jobs and the jobs that are left don't even pay enough to not qualify for food stamps. Be it left or right, decent jobs with decent pay is a critical issue, much more so for the average person than government spying.

I think most intelligent people can agree that welfare programs and food stamps got us into this mess... Man made climate change is such a joke as well... Besides no matter what regulations are put into place it wouldn't change anything... China is the largest producer of man made pollution and they don't follow anything nor would they... I dispute the Big Bang theory as a Physicist myself and dispute Darwinism.... You are as our president out of touch with reality and put a select people inside of a whole group...

 

[requiem99]

Perhaps not, there's been several times in this nations history were its existence the following year was in doubt, 1863 and 1942 are prominent. When I was growing up we were still doing the bomb drill radiation shelter thing in school. That certainly puts some doubt about the future in a kids mind.

Yeah, they wanted you to be scared, that was exactly the point. There was never any real danger in 1942 and the "US Government" (corrupt business/family elites) knew this with 100% confidence. I dare you to argue with me about this, use any angle you like Midway/Republican Party/Draft/Hitler's-non-existant-A-bomb/civil war/invasion/what-the-fuck-ever. They also knew in the 60s that the chance of a nuclear exchange with the Soviets was almost 0, just as they knew in the 50s that not only had Communists not infiltrated the country at any level, but that few Americans even knew the basic tenets or even factoids about Communism. This is why it was so easy to exploit it to advance their agenda, and why even today American history is being recounted largely fictitiously. Why do they recount it so blatantly fictitiously and arrogantly? Because they can easily get away with it as they have done for decades, and no critical mass of the population actually gives a shit enough to learn the truth or separate fact from fiction.

We'll never learn from our mistakes as a country until we start caring and own up to them, admit we were wrong, and move on to better, science/education/reality based solutions. Until then we're just going to keep going in fucking circles and letting the same mother fuckering elites bleed everyone dry. I say all of this as a class traitor, because I've seen firsthand how elites behave my entire life.

Don't even get me started here as History is my specialty, with particular emphasis on 1929-1945. The USA had tons of serious problems before WWII, but they pale in comparison to the inherent, fundamental, and critical democratic stability issues that have been carefully 'frog boiled' into the population since that time.

 

[heatlesssun]

You are as our president out of touch with reality and put a select people inside of a whole group...

LOL! I love how people here with anonymous identities label others as out of touch with reality. Telling a 46 year old black man that he's out of touch we he's worked most of his life, never asked for government assistance and pays a ton of taxes and doesn't bother anyone is about as out of touch as it gets.

 

[heatlesssun]

Yeah, they wanted you to be scared, that was exactly the point. There was never any real danger in 1942 and the "US Government" (corrupt business/family elites) knew this with 100% confidence. I dare you to argue with me about this, use any angle you like Midway/Republican Party/Draft/Hitler's-non-existant-A-bomb/civil war/invasion/what-the-fuck-ever.

My dad was a WW II veteran and my mother lived in that time as well as young adults. If you think that Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were no threat, you'd have a hard time making that case from people all across the globe that lived in that time.

 

[G1. Killer]

LOL! I love how people here with anonymous identities label others as out of touch with reality. Telling a 46 year old black man that he's out of touch we he's worked most of his life, never asked for government assistance and pays a ton of taxes and doesn't bother anyone is about as out of touch as it gets.

I mean I'd say that if we were sitting beside each other debating...

 

[heatlesssun]

I mean I'd say that if we were sitting beside each other debating...

Fair enough, I just think that telling people that they are out of touch with reality when obviously everyone has to deal with reality everyday doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

[Seraphim974]

firing squad please

 

[Retronym]

Small government is great, until corporations and businesses collapse and millions lose their jobs and the jobs that are left don't even pay enough to not qualify for food stamps. Be it left or right, decent jobs with decent pay is a critical issue, much more so for the average person than government spying.

We have a pretty wide swath of Americans on food stamps with full time jobs right now.

 

[kac77]

Fair enough, I just think that telling people that they are out of touch with reality when obviously everyone has to deal with reality everyday doesn't make a lot of sense.

I think merely telling someone they are out of touch with reality figuratively makes perfect sense especially if what's coming out of their mouth is total BS (translation: not backed up by facts, or science).

There are people around us (not you specifically) that subconsciously live a life of ignorance but consciously believe they are living a life of enlightenment. In this scenario telling the person they are out of touch fits perfectly, and is perfectly pointless all at the same time. Much like the Borg, trying to communicate, debate, or even discuss anything beyond eating, shitting, playing, or screwing is a futile endeavor.

Sometimes the only thing you can do is watch them. It's like playing Oregon Trail in Spectator Mode. They will believe in fictional things yet take a shit, forget to wash their hands, turn on their computer, and then die of Dysentery.



No matter what ails them, it's not because they forgot to buy enough rations, it's because ..Jesus.

 

[Lith1um]

cockomonkey, I 'am glad you said this because I have said it here several time before.

Part of the problem is the architecture of how we handle digital communications. If that architectural model were changed in a manner that supported sending data from one person, to another, without broadcasting it to anyone who might want to listen, then maybe we could return to a more explicit level of expectation of privacy.
So then there is the next question, how? And even more to the point, the government can't make this happen, only business can. I think business is so far into the big data idea and a grand future where we all willingly let them into our lives to such a degree that they can turn us all into little perfect consumers. We have to find a way to get them on board or it won't happen.

Others watched Minority Report too, and they really liked what they saw.

Digitally encrypted cellphone networks aren't exactly an open form of communications, this isnt' 1970, they aren't cb radios. I wish people the intelligence community and their cronies in congress would stop trying to sell that played out semantic.

 

[heatlesssun]

We have a pretty wide swath of Americans on food stamps with full time jobs right now.

We do and I think that regardless of political views most see that as a problem. It sickens me that people that work full time jobs and pay FICA taxes qualify for government aid. I'm sure some here will say that government aid is unnecessary and that these people are just taking advantage of the system but it's hard to rule out that some companies aren't taking of advantage of the system as well.

 

[Draax]

Nice quote you keep bringing up Draax so I'll run with it. Let's start with the word "temporary", "essential".

I don't believe that the program being temporary or not has any bearing on the situation, nor do I believe that addressing singular words, from a quote, speaks much to the spirit, meaning, or context of the quote.

What I do believe is that a fundamental freedom, better yet a universal human right, is the presumption of innocence. There are always going to be threats, whether manufactured or real, and it is much easier to "temporarily" remove a right then it is to ever get it back.

The more disconcerting issue here, is that this program is really indicative of a much larger problem, the belief that the ends justify the means. The ends do not justify the means, and this belief is actually quite dangerous. We have seen numerous examples, throughout history, of exactly what happens when people and governments start think this way.

 

[Lith1um]

We do and I think that regardless of political views most see that as a problem. It sickens me that people that work full time jobs and pay FICA taxes qualify for government aid. I'm sure some here will say that government aid is unnecessary and that these people are just taking advantage of the system but it's hard to rule out that some companies aren't taking of advantage of the system as well.

It's been repeatedly stated that companies such as Walmart underpay their employees and have their HR representatives direct their employees to government agencies providing forms of public assistance.

Watch: "Walmart: The High Cost of Low Prices".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jazb24Q2s94

 

[westrock2000]

And if Obama had leaked the same information as Snowden and then ran off to Russia he'd also be guilty of treason.

The betrayal of one's own country by waging war against it or by consciously or purposely acting to aid its enemies.
......
The crime of betraying one's country, esp. by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government.

Snowden fled the country because of the precedent set by US government in how they handled "proper" whistleblowers. Specifically William Binney in 2001 and Thomas Drake in 2011.

Snowden brought forth a series of information that detailed how the United States government was operating against the citizens of the United States and it's allies. The citizens of the United States as well as the allies of the United States then took up a large scale discussion that deeply criticized the actions of the US government. There is great contention that what is being done is counter active to basic rights protected by the United States citizens.

How is this "betraying one's country" or "acting to aid its enemies"? If the "government" is a representation of the people, and the people are not happy with the information brought forth about a sub-section of the government, how is that related to "overthrow the government"?

Who did Snowden betray?

 

[westrock2000]

It's been repeatedly stated that companies such as Walmart underpay their employees and have their HR representatives direct their employees to government agencies providing forms of public assistance.

Depends on your idea of under payed I suppose. Making $3 above minimum wage with no experience is certainly better then I ever got working at the so called "good" grocery stores as a teenager. I actually was payed under minimum wage, because the law allowed it due to probation periods and the possibility of getting tips.

 

[Lith1um]

How much rent were you paying your parents? What was your monthly food bill? Surely an adult has different financial needs than a teen? In rural parts of the country I guess someone might be able to survive on minimum wage, but in many localities trying to live on min wage is a fucking joke.

 

[kac77]

Depends on your idea of under payed I suppose. Making $3 above minimum wage with no experience is certainly better then I ever got working at the so called "good" grocery stores as a teenager. I actually was payed under minimum wage, because the law allowed it due to probation periods and the possibility of getting tips.

I'm assuming you waited tables. So did I and I can tell you that if you are good you can make a killing doing it. Comparing that with a entry level Walmart employee is a joke.

 

[westrock2000]

I'm assuming you waited tables. So did I and I can tell you that if you are good you can make a killing doing it. Comparing that with a entry level Walmart employee is a joke.

I said right there I was working for a grocery store. It was Kroger. Minimum wage was $5.15 and I made $4.25 an hour as a "sacker". The reasoning was that they were allowed to pay less for 3 months after my start date as a probationary period and that also as a sacker I was in the unique situation at the store that I could receive tips.

Let me tell you, women who buy $300 worth of groceries for $100 that fit in 2 shopping carts don't tip for shit. And this was the late 90's. Even $100 of normal groceries was a lot of food.

 

[westrock2000]

How much rent were you paying your parents? What was your monthly food bill? Surely an adult has different financial needs than a teen? In rural parts of the country I guess someone might be able to survive on minimum wage, but in many localities trying to live on min wage is a fucking joke.

I do not disagree with you at all. But that is exactly how the it, the current system, is supposed to work. I could go on for paragraphs about this.

What's your solution? I'm talking long term solution.

If at ANY point it involves giving people more money, it's not going to work.

 

[heatlesssun]

Snowden fled the country because of the precedent set by US government in how they handled "proper" whistleblowers. Specifically William Binney in 2001 and Thomas Drake in 2011.

Snowden brought forth a series of information that detailed how the United States government was operating against the citizens of the United States and it's allies. The citizens of the United States as well as the allies of the United States then took up a large scale discussion that deeply criticized the actions of the US government. There is great contention that what is being done is counter active to basic rights protected by the United States citizens.

How is this "betraying one's country" or "acting to aid its enemies"? If the "government" is a representation of the people, and the people are not happy with the information brought forth about a sub-section of the government, how is that related to "overthrow the government"?

Who did Snowden betray?

He released classified material, that's a crime. I'm not saying what Snowden did wasn't the right thing to do, but he certainly broke the law and running off to Russia cast a lot of doubt about that he was really up to. The Russian government has no love for freedom or liberty. So we are all supposed to take his word that he hasn't been debriefing Russian intelligence with goodies that he's been keeping for himself to use as leverage or monetary gain?

My point was what if Obama had done this. He certainly would have been impeached in the House and probably convicted in the Senate. And rightfully so. You can't have a sitting President leaking classified material and then fleeing the country.

 

[OP20]

I don't see anyone here asking for James Clapper to be shot. All of the focus is on the killing the messenger instead of his message. It usually takes time for Whistle blowers to be seen as heroes and not traitors. Government produced media spin confuses people just long enough for them to get away with lying, cheating, and stealing.

 

[magnetik]

He released classified material, that's a crime. I'm not saying what Snowden did wasn't the right thing to do, but he certainly broke the law and running off to Russia cast a lot of doubt about that he was really up to. The Russian government has no love for freedom or liberty. So we are all supposed to take his word that he hasn't been debriefing Russian intelligence with goodies that he's been keeping for himself to use as leverage or monetary gain?

My point was what if Obama had done this. He certainly would have been impeached in the House and probably convicted in the Senate. And rightfully so. You can't have a sitting President leaking classified material and then fleeing the country.

he didn't exactly run to Russia... he was stuck in a transit zone for over a month with no where to go until Putin decided he could stay.

 

[Climber]

How much rent were you paying your parents? What was your monthly food bill? Surely an adult has different financial needs than a teen? In rural parts of the country I guess someone might be able to survive on minimum wage, but in many localities trying to live on min wage is a fucking joke.

Minimum wage jobs are entry level positions and as such deserve to start out at minimum wage. If you're trying to raise a family on minimum wage or still working minimum wage jobs 10 years into your "career" it isn't the systems fault.

My niece started at McDonalds 2 years ago as a junior in high school. She is now a freshman in college and is assistant manager and makes $13.00 an hour. If you want to start a minimum wage job and that is all your education and experience allow you to start at, then do your job good to the best of your ability and work your way up the ranks.

Or perhaps if you're still trying to live on minimum wage for whatever reason you can always do like I did in college, work 3 jobs to make ends meet. I worked at a restaurant so I could cover meals, I worked as a teacher's aide so my tuition was lower, and I worked at Sherman Williams so I had some cash coming in. Had my own apartment, my own car, and was able to graduate with zero student loans so its possible to do. Do you have to make sacrifices to do this? Yes you do. Are there those who are willing to make the sacrifices to make ends meet? Many do, many do not. Those who are not willing to make the sacrifices necessary to improve their lives do not deserve a handout and should be stuck at minimum wage jobs, wish I could be more forgiving, but I have a very low tolerance for those who seek to piggyback off the labors of others. Are there exceptional people working minimum wage jobs just to get by? Sure there are and it sucks and they may never see the payoff of their labors, but their kids and grandkids may.

What was it Bruce Lee said? "Pray not for an easy life, but for the strength to endure a hard one."

 

[Climber]

Ugh rant, forgot this was a thread about Snowden haha. But the same holds true there. I hate to see our government once again thrown into such a negative light on such a global scale as if other governments aren't doing the exact same thing. I feel Snowden could have done things differently, perhaps not though I wasn't in his shoes. Maybe he exhausted his other options and this is all that was left for him, but he did go about it pretty underhanded and that is what makes me question his motives.

 

[chockomonkey]

Ugh rant, forgot this was a thread about Snowden haha. But the same holds true there. I hate to see our government once again thrown into such a negative light on such a global scale as if other governments aren't doing the exact same thing. I feel Snowden could have done things differently, perhaps not though I wasn't in his shoes. Maybe he exhausted his other options and this is all that was left for him, but he did go about it pretty underhanded and that is what makes me question his motives.

If I were in his shoes I'd probably do the same thing. I'd want to believe that staying in America would be okay and that the people of the United States would back me up. But as I value my life and freedom, I'd have to suck it up and run away because I fear the power of our government and the apathy of our countrymen.