Should the [H]orde transition projects?

[FLECOM]

like the title says, theres been a lot of vocal animosity lately (again) towards PG and F@H

I am curious what everyone here thinks, stay the course with F@H or look for something else (WCG, whatever)

I think no matter what we do we should try and do it as a team as to not fragment our efforts...

 

[may i be worthy]

I tell you, I was at the point of giving it away a little while ago - nothing like adding a second SR2 and seeing your PPD drop. (hitting the 6701 oilslick)

So the thought of leaving just as the bigadv drought breaks is a bit hard. That was a big issue that needed fixing.

My preference would be to use this discontent to effect change with PG. I would like to see Tobit reinstated - if he is agreeable to coming back of course.

I say we work on an open letter to Vijay, - lets round up signatures from a bunch of people, tally the points they have contributed, the dollars, the CPU years etc then see how that goes down. If nothing changes, get support from other teams and go on strike. If nothing changes, go to BOINC.

So I am voting stick with it - but with a big bloody asterix. I doubt I will be folding in a year if things are like they are today.

 

[Axdrenalin]

I doubt I will be folding in a year if things are like they are today.

It won't take me a whole year...While I am all for the concept of what F@H is out to accomplish, I don't enjoy being part of a project that is run or managed by the level of ignorance that we've seen lately. There are other things that I can donate my valuable time and efforts to.

 

[gkanakis]

nothing like adding a second SR2 and seeing your PPD drop. (hitting the 6701 oilslick)

I know the feeling!!

I took the Giveaway computer offline and added a SR-2 and I'm about even where I was.

I was hoping for a little boost!

Drop about 35k PPD and add 100k PPD and end up even!?!?!?

I know my PPD will be down in December, because of the Christmas Challenge.

But the work is getting done and that's all that matters to me!

 

[Kendrak]

Seriously? Are we here to get shiney points and if we don't get em take our ball and go home or to do science? With a team the size of ours someone is going to have their feelings hurt for any number of issues, at any givin time.

Let us focus on what we are doing, find cures!

Let's get back to business.
Fold on!

 

[Nightbird]

I vote another only because F@H doesn't support OpenCL
I'll stick with the [H]orde's decision though.

 

[10e]

I voted "stay" but really it's an individual's decision.

While I really don't have a lot of respect for the FF mods that power-tripped lately, I always try and keep the attitude "don't let a few bad apples spoil the batch".

I'll stick with F@H for now, but again it's up to those involved in the project.

 

[Xilikon]

I voted to stay because the FF admins/mods doesn't run F@H, the PG does. The main problem right now is that the FF staff doesn't help by their recent actions and attitude.

I always kept a good contact with Vijay and I know that the PG is working hard to attain the goals they set. However, being academic, it's not always easy whereas in a business, money talks.

 

[The_Heretic]

it's not always easy whereas in a business, money talks.

This has been my concern, money seems to be doing too much talking as of late. It might do the [H]orde some good to give Folding a break and see how the food tastes elsewhere. My jury is still out about sticking with Folding. Also I'm not real big on the continuing messed up points system that only seems to be getting worse.

 

[Elledan]

I agree on the 'open letter' approach. We state our disagreements with F@H as a project and maybe address some related issues as well. If a mature discussion then proves to be impossible, we'll just have to put our money where our mouth is, so to speak, and focus on another project.

Which projects are akin to F@H in its focus on fundamental science?

 

[rmdashrrootsplat]

The way F@H is run always pisses me off. It does seem that everyone is treated like pawns rather than valued contributors. However I'll always stick with whatever [H] decides to do.

 

[sirmonkey1985]

Seriously? Are we here to get shiney points and if we don't get em take our ball and go home or to do science? With a team the size of ours someone is going to have their feelings hurt for any number of issues, at any givin time.

Let us focus on what we are doing, find cures!

Let's get back to business.
Fold on!

completely understand able. but when you have 100 SR-2 rigs running F@H which is what the big adv WU's are ment for and you have them all running 6701/2 WU's. are you really using your resources correctly? theres a lot of shit PG could do to stream line its software to correctly detect processors. for example they can use a processor ID code which reads the processor information just like cpu-z and any other monitoring software and can correctly detect what the exact processor is. knows its an i7 running 8 threads or an x6 running 12 threads or a duel xeon running 16 or 24 threads, so on and so on. but no they rely on windows to tell the software how many cores.. ahem threads.. the system has.

meh this is my last post about this shit. so fed up with talking about PG. its just an endless broken record with these people. its always 1 step forward with something new and then they find some way to fuck it up and we are back right where we started with the same crap.


honestly if it was me id like to see the top 5 or 10 teams with the top producers to agree on a 1 weeks stretch where absolutely no one runs F@H. which forces PG to actually pull their heads out of their asses and do something. while i know boycotts never work, consider the fact that out of the top 5 teams produce about 50-60 million PPD a day right there. take that out of circulation for 7 days would bring the project to a grinding halt. then PG would actually have to listen to the communities suggestions. because at this point 1 person saying they are quitting fah even if they are doing a million PPD makes absolutely no dent. take out 60 million PPD and its a whole different ball game.

I agree on the 'open letter' approach. We state our disagreements with F@H as a project and maybe address some related issues as well. If a mature discussion then proves to be impossible, we'll just have to put our money where our mouth is, so to speak, and focus on another project.

Which projects are akin to F@H in its focus on fundamental science?

like what i said above open letter wont do anything without actually putting a threat behind it. its been done before. you get the usual response from Vijay about how he will take it into consideration list out the shit their planning on doing and well, nothing ever gets done and we all forget about it 2-3 weeks later then we are right back at where we started bitching about the same stuff. look at the FF theres plenty of threads about it with the same responses from Vijay and the usual jackass piece of crap admins sticking their noses where they dont belong.

 

[Kendrak]

Monkey, I was doing science. If it was a 6701 or a 2686 it was still science.
Did I gripe about the point, sure. I also kept my systems running because I knew I could tear through those 6701s faster than most anyone else.

Yes they need to fix the points, but the projects still need finished. Points =! Science.

That said, if we find a project with similar goals that can use the type systems I have... I might think about it. However I'd rather find a cure for cancer (or other nasty thing) than a new prime number.

 

[The_Heretic]

However I'd rather find a cure for cancer (or other nasty thing) than a new prime number.

No doubt here. Chasing Prime numbers, crypto codes, etc is not something I'd switch to. But it appears BOINC has some projects that work science and toward some disease cures.

 

[Nightbird]

That said, if we find a project with similar goals that can use the type systems I have... I might think about it. However I'd rather find a cure for cancer (or other nasty thing) than a new prime number.

Seconded. I prefer medicine over finding ET too

OpenCL a must, it's the future

 

[FLECOM]

Let us focus on what we are doing, find cures!

see thats one of my biggest problems with F@H right now... what the hell are we doing? most of the WU descriptions are blank, and for the many years this project has been going on I think they should have had some more notable results...

...find a project with similar goals that can use the type systems I have... I might think about it. However I'd rather find a cure for cancer (or other nasty thing) than a new prime number.

I probably should have mentioned any DC project we would transition to WOULD be for medical research, I personally would prefer it be directed towards cancer... as many people here (including myself) have close loved ones with cancer...

 

[Nathan_P]

Seriously? Are we here to get shiney points and if we don't get em take our ball and go home or to do science? With a team the size of ours someone is going to have their feelings hurt for any number of issues, at any givin time.

Let us focus on what we are doing, find cures!

Let's get back to business.
Fold on!

^^^This.

Yes there are issues with F@H, yes thre are even bigger issues with the mod team @ FF but its the science that counts. I do agree with several comments that we should be better informed about what project is doing what and which project leads to which paper thats published. Gripes about the software are valid but there is a solution to at least some of the those gripes in the works, how soon - we don't know yet.

One other point that i would like to make - When we got passed by EVGA we stated that our intent was to get our spot back by being a cohesive team that could take on any challenge, we now have a situation where we are about to fragment that team due to the actions of one douche bag over at FF. Is that really where we want to be, The best & proudest team on the project ripped apart for that??

As Relic posted long ago:- We are the [H]orde, we carry heavy burdens and we march on.

 

[KWH]

"due to the actions of one douche bag over at FF"

I don't think this is correct. Read over the posts again, you may come up with a different conclusion, at least I did.

 

[djBon2112]

Seriously? Are we here to get shiney points and if we don't get em take our ball and go home or to do science? With a team the size of ours someone is going to have their feelings hurt for any number of issues, at any givin time.

Let us focus on what we are doing, find cures!

Let's get back to business.
Fold on!

Agreed! This is the reason to fold, not points. F@H is doing great science, and IMO is the most productive and ultimately beneficial of the main DC projects.

 

[10e]

"due to the actions of one douche bag over at FF"

I don't think this is correct. Read over the posts again, you may come up with a different conclusion, at least I did.

Yeah unfortunately the FF has them, but there ARE also some really good, well-intentioned contributing folders over there that aren't just emissaries of the [H]orde. PantherX and codysluder come to mind

My opinion is that there are two or three troublemakers spoiling it for many. The problem is they're closely tied to the project.

see thats one of my biggest problems with F@H right now... what the hell are we doing? most of the WU descriptions are blank, and for the many years this project has been going on I think they should have had some more notable results...



I probably should have mentioned any DC project we would transition to WOULD be for medical research, I personally would prefer it be directed towards cancer... as many people here (including myself) have close loved ones with cancer...

Agreed on that. Really there is a huge lack of communication on their end. As one user on there says, he wants to see "accountability and transparency" from the PG and the Foldingforum, which seems to really be lacking.

 

[Xilikon]

Please fold for a good reason, which is to find a cure to the diseases we saw our relatives getting hit. Don't let a few idiots ruin for you and it's very easy to put them in place with a good action.

I fold for a few relatives who died to cancer, including my uncle who recently died of brain cancer after juste 2 months of being diagnosted. This is what should glue the team together

 

[FLECOM]

Please fold for a good reason, which is to find a cure to the diseases we saw our relatives getting hit. Don't let a few idiots ruin for you and it's very easy to put them in place with a good action.

I fold for a few relatives who died to cancer, including my uncle who recently died of brain cancer after juste 2 months of being diagnosted. This is what should glue the team together

but thats my problem, I have been doing research and it seems protein folding really has little to do with cancer research...

additionally we really don't know what we are working on at all... whos to say its even protein folding at all?

the whole secret squirrel thing at PG is unacceptable IMO

 

[Xilikon]

First of all, here's the papers coming from the F@H project over the years : http://folding.stanford.edu/English/Papers

Remember that what they are doing are basic science to study the molecular biology to better understand how cells cause diseases including alzheimer, cancer, parkinson, etc... We need to have a solid foundation of understanding before we can forward with applied studies to cure the various diseases. Right now, cancer isn't totally mastered in terms of how it works and how they develop.

With WCG, while we are also doing some good with the various projects, we still don't know if any result came out of them. It's very hard to get informations form the WCG team beside official articles on the WCG page. That's my main beef and the reason I came back to F@H (be with the [H]orde is another reason).

 

[jebo_4jc]

I agree with nearly everything said so far.

1. Let's not lose sight of the ultimate goals.

2. Just because a couple jackwagons at FF are miserably bad at what they do doesn't mean we should quit.

3. Just because the points system is asinine doesn't mean we should quit. The points will change tomorrow, then again the next day.

4. Rather than quit, we should actively pursue changing the things we don't like. We're the undisputed best team in the world (except in the eyes of naive evga, but I digress), let's throw our weight around.

5. My skirt hasn't been blown up by any other project out there. I will fold on team BWM rather than search for ET or prime numbers. It would have to be a combination of strong scientific/medical value and a wide variety of clients for CPUs and GPUs.

I'm with MIBW, Elledan et al that say we should try to affect change rather than quit. Our efforts would need to be unified and vocal. Let's go flood the FF or something.

If our efforts are exhausted and we are still unsatisfied, let's have this conversation again later.

And let me say this: if we quit FAH we will HEAR IT from every friend, foe, and ally we've ever come across in FAH. We will be called every name in the book and it won't stop for a long time.

 

[rflcptr]

Which projects are akin to F@H in its focus on fundamental science?

That said, if we find a project with similar goals that can use the type systems I have... I might think about it. However I'd rather find a cure for cancer (or other nasty thing) than a new prime number.

I probably should have mentioned any DC project we would transition to WOULD be for medical research, I personally would prefer it be directed towards cancer... as many people here (including myself) have close loved ones with cancer...

BOINC offers many disease-related projects, that can be run on many configurations. World Community Grid, GPUGRID, Rosetta, etc. Some are CPU-exclusive, others GPU-exclusive, and some use both. Some of the sub-projects for WCG are for cancer research, and you can run them exclusively.

With WCG, while we are also doing some good with the various projects, we still don't know if any result came out of them. It's very hard to get informations form the WCG team beside official articles on the WCG page. That's my main beef and the reason I came back to F@H (be with the [H]orde is another reason).

Use the category dropdown here: http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/research/research.do?filterCategory=1_0&sortBy=&pageNum=1

 

[jebo_4jc]

BOINC offers many disease-related projects, that can be run on many configurations. World Community Grid, GPUGRID, Rosetta, etc. Some are CPU-exclusive, others GPU-exclusive, and some use both. Some of the sub-projects for WCG are for cancer research, and you can run them exclusively.

Use the category dropdown here: http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/research/research.do?filterCategory=1_0&sortBy=&pageNum=1

here come the commandos to let us know how awesome BOINC is

 

[SazanEyes]

I started folding for the [H]orde a few months ago to hold off EVGA. I've been part of the [H]ard DC Commandos longer, and I imagine sooner or later I'll go back to primarily running other DC projects with F@H getting a lower priority. This is why I never worried too much about the F@H points and "what if bigadv goes away" because my SR-2s will be great for BOINC, etc.

Also, I understand the desire for hard science. However, I can say I personally discovered a prime number. What have I done for medical research? I've seen the F@H papers, but it's all very preliminary and other methods of research may yield better results. Other DC projects seem to have more clearly defined goals and scope.

I didn't vote because I'll keep doing my own thing. If the [H]orde were to stop folding I'd go back to my old team.

 

[KWH]

"I'm with MIBW, Elledan et al that say we should try to affect change rather than quit."

Funny, myself and a few others were called names, laughed at and insulted recently by some of these very same posters for trying to cause change. Still we persisted. Are some of you now saying change is just now needed? Did some of you have an epiphany?
Change IS needed. It has always seemed odd to me how PG or ANY of the other groups out there use volunteers to keep their (funded?) projects going. We have spend untold monies in this pursuit only to be insulted and derided by the powers that be. This should not be treated as a special op military program, it should be open. The "leaders" should take a little time and make SOME effort to address these issues that have persisted for so long but it's obvious change won't be happening anytime soon.
Tell me, where would the science be without the volunteers?

 

[zero2dash]

Funny, myself and a few others were called names, laughed at and insulted recently by some of these very same posters for trying to cause change. Still we persisted. Are some of you now saying change is just now needed? Did some of you have an epiphany?
Change IS needed. It has always seemed odd to me how PG or ANY of the other groups out there use volunteers to keep their (funded?) projects going. We have spend untold monies in this pursuit only to be insulted and derided by the powers that be. This should not be treated as a special op military program, it should be open. The "leaders" should take a little time and make SOME effort to address these issues that have persisted for so long but it's obvious change won't be happening anytime soon.
Tell me, where would the science be without the volunteers?

I didn't necessarily agree with your prior points in the BWM thread but your post here is 100% spot on with what I'm feeling ATM.

Again, I'm not trying to stir any negativity but really, lately, I dunno man....maybe I'm complacent, or maybe it's circumstances lately over the last few weeks.....I just don't know about things anymore. I'm starting to wonder just where our contributions are going. A lot of what PG has said the last few weeks (especially regarding our complaints about BWM) have been promises of change yet no proof that the ball is rolling in that regard.

I apologize if I sound like a tool...I've always folded for the cause 1st and everything else last. I'm just saying that things lately are starting to irk me and like Ax said, you know, if the group that we're doing all this work for is going to continue with the silence and lack of action, then maybe we should take our business elsewhere. I'm not trying to say I expect a give and take from PG, but throwing us a bone from time to time with some info that any regular Tom, Dick or Harry can understand would be nice.

 

[lehmann]

I have been here sense the beggining. Seen issue's like these many times before. if you take this to serious your not gonna make it. Tobits a great part of our team. he has quality's which are not popular in the world we live in. Smart, tuff and unbending. i call it ( Cowboy mentality). Being a man's man is looked down upone these day's. Im gonna take a guess and say that has as much to do with the mods at FF as anything. thought it's just a guess not fact. now Tobit be the hard nosed ass i hope you are and not not let them win.

 

[jebo_4jc]

So, Z2D and Ax, you should write out some specific complaints/comments/requests and let's take those up the ladder.

There's no point in complaining about the state of things on Hardforum except to let off some steam. Let's put our thoughts together and see if we can't instigate some real changes.

PG has lost some of its focus, it seems, and has lost touch with its volunteer base. They probably need a slap in the face. So lets see what might be the best way to do that.

 

[Nathan_P]

So, Z2D and Ax, you should write out some specific complaints/comments/requests and let's take those up the ladder.

There's no point in complaining about the state of things on Hardforum except to let off some steam. Let's put our thoughts together and see if we can't instigate some real changes.

PG has lost some of its focus, it seems, and has lost touch with its volunteer base. They probably need a slap in the face. So lets see what might be the best way to do that.

This is an excellent idea.

I'd like to start with the lack of project info- most of the project info on the Project summary is missing - can we get that updated more often?

Another point is which projects contribute to which paper? - i've skim read all of them (way over my head) and only once have i seen a project number mentioned at some point either in the paper itself or in the post about the paper. Giving us that info would help us know which papers we have contributed to.

 

[jebo_4jc]

Ok. Good start.

What about a post at FF. "Open letter to Pande Group"

Xilikon posts it, and it contains a list of our thoughts. Then we all post in the thread to "sign" the letter.

So far we have:

1. lack of project info- most of the project info on the Project summary is missing - can we get that updated more often?

2. More specific, easy to understand feedback about which project numbers contribute to what research, breakthrough, or paper.

 

[twelveparsex]

there's plenty of medical projects that boinc does.

why does everyone insist on it having to be a medical project. there are plenty of biology based projects that could potentially affect just as many lives as f@h does. Personally i think there are plenty of projects that are more worthwhile like this one. Or ones involving studies for climate change. Don't be too closed minded...most of the projects on there are biological simulations of one type or another.

 

[zero2dash]

So, Z2D and Ax, you should write out some specific complaints/comments/requests and let's take those up the ladder.

Ok, works for me.

-Some progress or at least an official announcement regarding cherry picking WUs and that it's not allowed and violators will be zeroed out or temp/perma banned from contributing

-Some sort of layman's terms on the progress notes/paperwork. Not everyone who folds has a PhD and can understand what the progress means. A simple "x project working on y chromosome/genome which is a part of z disease/cancer" etc. something like that. For all we know, folding could be contributing to a real life Skynet; none of us non-PhD's know. I'm not saying I think it is, I'm just saying - an explanation that any average Joe can understand would be appreciated.

 

[DWolvin]

I agree with the open letter, with possible 'non-fold day' to see if we can get them off their asses. I want to fold for medical science, but my video preferences are ATI- so I seem to be using half of my computer at best (if the Boinc comments are correct). I am seriously thinking about going to anything medical on Boinc just to have my machine working to the fullest. I am not so worried about my meager points, but I hate the attitude and secrecy. Heck, I'd take that if there were more client updates...

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

I think an open letter would be good. But I doubt it would do anything. The fact of the matter is that the target audience for the letter don't see the project the same way as we do; if they did, none of this would have to be discussed.

Which projects are akin to F@H in its focus on fundamental science?

Almost all DC projects (even the maths ones, depending on how far you push the definition) focus on 'fundamental science'.

Being a man's man is looked down upone these day's

So is spelling and grammar, it seems.

 

[KWH]

I agree with the open letter, with possible 'non-fold day' to see if we can get them off their asses. I want to fold for medical science, but my video preferences are ATI- so I seem to be using half of my computer at best (if the Boinc comments are correct). I am seriously thinking about going to anything medical on Boinc just to have my machine working to the fullest. I am not so worried about my meager points, but I hate the attitude and secrecy. Heck, I'd take that if there were more client updates...

In society, if there are no consequences for actions then an open letter will do nothing. With all the discussions in recent past seemingly gone nowhere. I understand about time constraints but without the folders, their work will just sit there. Are folders are not then part of the "project"?

 

[jebo_4jc]

In society, if there are no consequences for actions then an open letter will do nothing. With all the discussions in recent past seemingly gone nowhere. I understand about time constraints but without the folders, their work will just sit there. Are folders are not then part of the "project"?

right. quitting without at least making our concerns heard will accomplish very little.

Opening this communication might be futile. If it is, then I say we explore other projects.

If some good comes out of it, then we win.

 

[amdgamer]

I'm not voting, but I will follow you guys if you want to do another project so long as it is something that is medical oriented reseach wise.

I still believe however that we need to get together as a group and confront the PG as MIBW suggested on page one. Give them a chance at the least. I believe in the research that the PG is doing, just not the arrogance that we have seen lately. I again echo the sentiment that this is OUR hardware and NOT theirs.