SFF web server build advice

G

GJSNeptune

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Mar 31, 2004
Messages
12,372
I made a similar thread two years ago about using a Shuttle KPC as a web server. The plan never came to fruition. I'd like to see if I can put together a small, solid system for relatively cheap that can be a web server for years to come. I'd like it to be powerful enough (bandwidth permitting) to stream media without pause.

A web server doesn't need much power, but I'm not sold on Intel's Atom offerings. Just an overall impression that the more normal solutions are more practical. But please try to sway me if you want to. I haven't looked at the Atom for awhile.

I just looked on Shuttle's site and saw the SG41J1 PLUS (LGA775), but it seems to fall flat, especially given the almost $200 to get one. I've browsed Newegg, but nothing is striking me. So I've come here to ask around.

I don't have an exact budget for the entire system, but let's aim for under $300 for now.
 
Can you be more specific about your goals? A web server just serving static content to clients, even at gigabit with high concurrency doesn't require very much CPU, RAM and disk I/O are far more limiting. If you're doing transcoding or heavy web frontend/database stuff, sure.

Since your budget is so low I'm going to assume your workload is easy as well, which may not be a safe assumption, but if that is the case, Atom is more than sufficient. I would do this:

Intel BOXD510MO
2x2GB SODIMM
miniITX case/psu & hdd of your choice

Should easily be under $250 if you keep to a cheap case and small/inexpensive hdd.

If you do decide you want a full-fledged system, I'd use the Intel BOXDH57JG and a Celeron E3300.
 
No, it's dynamic, database-driven. It's all PHP, but I'd like to get into JS (and Ajax) eventually.

What about case recommendations?

Also, I plan to use Linux and Apache. I know that some Atom boards had NIC issues under Linux. Are there still around?
 
JS development is getting more meta. Look into GWT. You write code in java and it compiles into a JS script.
 
I'm intrigued by the Antec ISK cases, but the differences between them are confusing. The 300-65 has external power, yet is about 2 lbs. heavier than the 300-150 with an internal PSU. Both have the same dimensions.

Not that weight is an issue. But having external power seems more reliable than an internal PSU. Don't have to worry about the component failing.
 
The ISK cases, IMO, are made for Atom setups. Since you don't want to use an Atom setup, that's definitely an issue. Some other recommendations:
$60 - Lian Li PC-Q7 mITX Case
$100 - Silverstone SG05B mITX Case with FSP SFX 300W PSU

Oh and the extra 2lbs. for the 300-65 is due to the external power brick that it comes with. AFAIK, there are no major reliability differences between an internal power supply or external power brick. Both have components that can fail. So I don't understand where your "Don't have to worry about the component failing" statement is coming from in regards to external power.

Now what exact parts do you need for that $300 budget? i.e do you also need a HDD with that budget?
 
GJSNeptune said:
No, it's dynamic, database-driven. It's all PHP, but I'd like to get into JS (and Ajax) eventually.
Click to expand...
If this is just for development, Atom is still likely far more than you need, provided you stuff sufficient RAM in the box. Any site that can't hold up under the load of a single user on Atom hardware isn't going to be viable in the wild. Still, if it's in your budget, more performance is never a bad thing ;).

If this is for production, what on earth are you doing going for SFF and on such a low budget?!

Also, I plan to use Linux and Apache. I know that some Atom boards had NIC issues under Linux. Are there still around?
Click to expand...

The Realtek drivers and recent revisions of the chips are fairly stable, but performance still blows (relatively, you'll do > 300mbps no problem). This is one reason I recommended the Intel H57 board, as it uses an Intel NIC instead of the cheap garbage like Realtek or Atheros. The Atom does indeed use the Realtek 8111, but I doubt you'll have any issues with it under light load with a recent Linux kernel. If you have no need for Apache-specific features and just need a web server to host PHP, look into nginx instead, it is considerably more efficient.
 
Twas a bit bored while my viral scan was running so I put together a few builds:

Build 1:
$80 - Intel BOXD510MO Intel Atom D510 Mini ITX Motherboard/CPU Combo
$50 - G.Skill F2-6400CL5S-2GBNT 2GB DDR2 800 RAM
$76 - Antec ISK 300-65 Mini ITX Case
$30 - Intel PWLA8391GT 10/100/1000Mbps PRO/1000 GT PCI NIC OEM w/ 1 x RJ45
-----
Total: $236 plus tax and shipping

Build 2:
$59 - AMD Athlon II X2 245 CPU
$45 - ZOTAC NF6100-E-E Nvidia nForce 430 MCP Mini ITX Motherboard
$50 - G.Skill F2-6400CL5S-2GBNT 2GB DDR2 800 RAM
$100 - Silverstone SG05B mITX Case with FSP SFX 300W PSU
$35 - Intel EEXPI9301CTBLK 10/100/1000Mbps PCI-Ex1 Gigabit Desktop Adapter
---
$289 plus tax and shipping

Build 3:
$125 - Intel Core i3-530 CPU
$110 - Intel BOXDH57JG Intel H57 Mini ITX Motherboard
$54 - Patriot 2GB DDR3 1333 RAM
$100 - Silverstone SG05B mITX Case with FSP SFX 300W PSU
---
Total: $389 plus tax and shipping

Went for Intel NICs with all three setups just for the hell of it and for better Linux support/speeds. The more you spend, the more power you get. Theoretically, the Antec ISK 300-150's 150W PSU should be enough power for the last two setups. However I am unsure whether or not the ISK case can actually provide sufficient cooling for the last two setups. As such, went with the Silverstone SG05 for slightly overkill in the PSU department and better cooling.
 
As an Amazon Associate, HardForum may earn from qualifying purchases.
Danny Bui said:
Now what exact parts do you need for that $300 budget? i.e do you also need a HDD with that budget?
Click to expand...
Pretty much everything. I have spare 3.5" HDDs, but most cases I've seen support only 2.5", although some allow you to use a 3.5" and no optical.

Case
PSU
Board
CPU
RAM
HDD (if case doesn't support 3.5")
NIC (optional)


Thanks for coming up with some builds. The first one seems really good for $239.
 
Well since the ISK cases only support 2.5" drives, I recommend this drive:
$40 - Seagate Momentus 7200.4 ST9160412AS 160GB 7200 RPM SATA HDD
 
I actually have the Regor 245 in my WHS box. I'm quite impressed by it. I think I'm leaning more towards your second build. I can use a 3.5" HDD in the Silverstone.
 
Yeah meant the 9301.

Some have more ports than others. Some uses a different port altogether. Some are either PCI or PCI-E based. Some have certain features that the others don't. Etc. There's a huge list of differences between every one of those Intel NICs.
 
GJSNeptune said:
Which ones (if not all) support jumbo frames?
Click to expand...

All of them do. That's the second reason why people go with Intel NICs (First reason is how stable they are). The fact that every Intel NIC supports jumbo frames allows them to be faster than other gigabit NICs.
 
i would not pay extra for the nic.. at least not at 1st.. I have the d510 board with the realtec & it performed fine with both linux & unix & now WHS. If the network speed was actually going to be a real bottleneck I would support it, but it sounds like its not going to be anything super intensive.
 
FWIW, while the AMD build is pretty nice for performance, there's not exactly a dearth of miniITX boards for AMD CPUs, and the options out there are not ones I would place in the 'rock solid and well engineered' pile. I would also prefer to avoid nVidia chipsets for Linux builds. I'm also not sure I see the wisdom in spending 1/3+ of the budget on the case for a box that will probably be hidden away in a closet somewhere.

To get at a similar pricepoint I would probably go for Intel's G41 board and an E3300 and live with the Realtek NIC rather than go to AMD, or save some money on the case and maybe reach the G45 board to get the Intel NIC and much nicer ICH.

Pretty much every NIC on the market these days supports jumbo frames, even the crappy Realteks, but it's really not that big a deal. Driver quality (and corresponding hardware design) is much more critical for good performance.
 
keenan said:
FWIW, while the AMD build is pretty nice for performance, there's not exactly a dearth of miniITX boards for AMD CPUs, and the options out there are not ones I would place in the 'rock solid and well engineered' pile. I would also prefer to avoid nVidia chipsets for Linux builds. I'm also not sure I see the wisdom in spending 1/3+ of the budget on the case for a box that will probably be hidden away in a closet somewhere.

To get at a similar pricepoint I would probably go for Intel's G41 board and an E3300 and live with the Realtek NIC rather than go to AMD, or save some money on the case and maybe reach the G45 board to get the Intel NIC and much nicer ICH.
Click to expand...

Well like I said, I'm not sure that the Antec ISK case can actually cool the last two setups well. In addition, most of the other ITX cases I've seen comes with a pretty crappy PSU that I personally wouldn't trust in any kind of system. If you can find another cheaper ITX case that comes with a decent enough PSU and can actually keep the last two systems cool, I'm all ears.

As for the Nvidia chipsets and Linux, I can't comment on that. TBH, most of my Linux experience with Intel chipsets.

One caveat that you forgot to mention about going the Intel route is the lower performance compared to the AMD setup. But yes, like with the Atom setup, the Intel Celeron setup would probably be enough.
 
for an itx case I cant recommend anything better then the lian li qc-q07 that and an corsair 400wx with the fan pointing in will cool pretty much anything chilly (kept my i3 with stock cooler very cool).. the pair with no sales or rebates involved normally end up about 110 on newegg & for any of these systems it would be way more then enough.. I believe antec also makes a 380w psu thats pretty reliable thats just a hair cheaper.
 
I'm not buying a 400W PSU for a web server. That's ludicrous. The Lian-Li has a nicer price, but the Silverstone comes with a PSU for $40 more, and 300W is ungodly plenty.
 
Chenbro PC78131 is about $55 and includes 60W DC-DC and external power brick. mini-ITX is going to have cooling problems if you stuff an overclocked i7 in there, but I think even a poorly designed case would be fine with an i3, E3300 or X2 245, these are all fairly low power CPUs. The Chenbro looks relatively good to me though and should be perfectly fine.

I'm not even aware of anyone doing any kind of evaluation of mini-ITX power supplies, or even if any of the 'trusted' brands are involved in that market. I know FSP is fairly well regarded, but they're not exactly at the top of everyone's 'recommend' list either.

I'd rather have a $10 power brick fail because I didn't spend much money on it than my $100 motherboard fail for the same reason.
 
Hmmm, while the included 60W PSU in the Chenbro would be fine for all of the setups at idle, I wouldn't be comfortable with it for when the PC is at load. A Core i3 CPU + mobo + HDD would use up about 68W at full CPU load. An AMD X2 245 setup would take up about 90W at full load. Can't find figures for the Celeron E3300 so can't comment on that.

No, there haven't been many or any PSU reviews of PSUs that comes with mini-ITX cases. But IMO, if it uses DC-DC and external power brick, it should be safe to use. In addition, if the case is a Silverstone or an Antec ITX case, the included PSU should be fine. However my crappy PSU statement was in regards to the Athena Power, Thermaltake, HEC, In Win, Athenatech, Rosewill, Apex, Winsis, Jetway, and Sunbeam miniITX cases I've seen on Newegg. Considering that those companies don't make/brand good ATX PSUs in the first place, I doubt the included PSUs in their ITX cases will be of actual decent value. In fact, a few of the Rosewill, Thermaltke, and Apex ITX cases are based on the same designa and uses the same Allied PSU. Considering Allied makes some pretty shitty ATX PSUs, their ITX PSUs can't be any better.
 
GJSNeptune said:
I'm not buying a 400W PSU for a web server. That's ludicrous. The Lian-Li has a nicer price, but the Silverstone comes with a PSU for $40 more, and 300W is ungodly plenty.
Click to expand...

then get whatever atx psu you want. I reccomended the corsair 400 as its probably the highest quality psu under 50 bucks. and in teh case of the lian li it also cools the whole case with a quiet fan so its not just the psu your paying for.
but if your comfortable with a 15 dollar psu then do that & come in cheaper..

also of note since your looking small the lian li is probably the largest volume case talked about here, but i believe it also takes up the least desk space due to it being a tower, not a cube style.

edit: after rebate the lian li & 400w corsair is 95 bucks shipped compared to the sg05 at 115 shipped (which is 5 bucks more then the lian li combo up front). So I really dont see your adversion to getting a better psu.
 
What's the reasoning behind going the Intel route and still getting a separate Intel NIC? Shouldn't the Intel board have a good enough NIC?

EDIT: Nevermind. I see that some of them use Realtek.
 
GJSNeptune said:
But keenan mentioned NVIDIA and Linux aren't so great. True?
Click to expand...

Like I said earlier, I can't comment on that since I have no personal experience with Linux and Nvidia chipsets. So I can't say whether or I disgree or agree with that statement.

But from a bit of research, it looks like Linux compatibility with Nvidia chipsets is not so great in regards to newer Nvidia chipsets like the 8200:
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=nvidia_8200_mobos&num=1

However older chipsets work just fine:
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=766&num=1
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=792&num=1

Considering that the Nvidia chipset of the mobo I recommended is a bit older than the last linked review, there's a good chance that Linux compatibility should be fine.
 
GJSNeptune said:
But keenan mentioned NVIDIA and Linux aren't so great. True?
Click to expand...

To be perfectly honest, I think it's mostly a non-issue since nVidia open-sourced their chipset drivers a couple years ago and got them in the official tree. I'm totally turned off by their poor showing before that (both from stability and performance perspectives), and they still haven't released full documentation so that the open source drivers can be improved/debugged by the community as far as I know. I've avoided them for a long time in Linux builds myself though, so I can't offer much objective analysis of them, and honestly haven't heard of any huge problems.

So mostly open-source interaction bias, as Intel's interaction with the community has been excellent for a long, long time, and it shows in the quality of their drivers.

Oh and the nVidia nForce NICs are absolute trash. Worse than Realtek even, IMO.
 
keenan said:
Oh and the nVidia nForce NICs are absolute trash. Worse than Realtek even, IMO.
Click to expand...

That I can agree with. Hence why, at least with the AMD setup, I highly recommend getting the Intel NIC.
 
Is it safe to assume that the BOXDH57JG has an Intel NIC? Newegg doesn't list one, whereas it lists Realtek for another I saw.

Is 2GB of memory just enough or comfortably plenty?

And will I run into problems running 64-bit Ubuntu?
 
GJSNeptune said:
Is it safe to assume that the BOXDH57JG has an Intel NIC? Newegg doesn't list one, whereas it lists Realtek for another I saw.

Is 2GB of memory just enough or comfortably plenty?

And will I run into problems running 64-bit Ubuntu?
Click to expand...

If you check the Product Specs for that mobo on Intel's site, it clearly states that it has an Intel NIC

2GB of RAM should be enough

Not sure.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top