San Francisco Passes Proposition C Also Known as the "Homeless Tax"

Status
Not open for further replies.
I hope even more liberal laws get passed in CA. If it can continue to drive more and more people out of state quickly, it will be the best thing that happens. There is just too many people living here.
 
capt_cope said:
Cute, but that's a pretty weak argument. Don't get me wrong, Texas clearly "cherry picked" the valid forms of ID, there's a pretty obvious trend - they're all issued by the government... Know what kind of ID usually isn't issued by the government? School IDs.
Click to expand...


This.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
For you and me it is simple.

For someone who is working 3 jobs just to make rent and feed their kids, doesn't have a car, so they can't justify paying licensing fees, it is both financially difficult, and difficult to find the time to get some of these documents in order.

Also, many older African Americans born in the south in the middle of the 20th century do not have birth certificates. They were never issued any. And even if you do, there are many issues (like old name changes, clerical errors, etc. etc.) that can make it very very difficult to actually obtain an id.

In voter id states it is very easy to obtain a qualified voter id, unless you are poor, black, latino or elderly, and often that is by design.
Click to expand...

Your just being obtuse, to get a legal job in america you have to file this little government form called an I-9. You have to provide documents from the I-9 acceptable documents list to your employer within 48 hours of your hire date or your employer has to terminate you.

https://www.pnw.edu/human-resources/i-9-list-of-acceptable-documents/

OMG the documents listed on those lists just so happen to be the acceptable documents to get an ID in any state....

Virtually every medium to major town(They work by mail as well) has a vital records office to help you replace lost documents and Most states have public assistance that helps poor people navigate these government programs. In my state you can go to any local health department and they will help you file for your documents to the vital records office. They also help parents with children's birth certificates.

Please stop with the strawman about large amounts of people that can not get ID's in this country. While there may be a very very small amount of people that due to some freak set of circumstances can not get replacement documents, there is even a process for that as well. You can petition any court to grant documents, like birth certificates, death certificates and name changes.... And please don't say that they can't do that because they are poor, because they have tons of free legal programs for the poor as well that help people in need with situations just like this.

Millions of poor people buy cigarettes,alcohol and cash checks every day in this country yet somehow they cant get an ID to go vote(Based on your Statement)....
 
Joust said:
So, do you oppose voter registration entirely?
Click to expand...

I'd argue that all citizens should automatically be registered by virtue of being citizens no matter what, and should not need to take any action what so ever other than show up at a polling place on election day and vote.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
I'd argue that all citizens should automatically be registered by virtue of being citizens no matter what, and should not need to take any action what so ever other than show up at a polling place on election day and vote.
Click to expand...

No screw all this free crap. People need to learn to become responsible citizens. If you can't get off your lazy ass and get the required Identification for a simple voting procedure than you're aren't qualified to vote.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
It can fail the way you suggest, if structured incorrectly, but it also can work if done right.

Most homeless people don't want to be on the streets as it is. Once they find themselves there - however - it is very difficult to come back. If you don't have an address, a phone number or an email, or clean clothes and a place to clean up to prepare for a job interview it is very difficult to get a job and pill yourseöf out of that situation.

A guy may have started on the street as a temporary thing, sleeping in his truck after his girlfriend kicked him out after a fight, or somethibg like that, and then got stuck there.

Then there are those who are otthe street who have legitimate mental illness or substance abuse disorders and need treatment.

Get these people into temporary modest safe housing units, help them with job search activities and those who need it with teatment for mental issues and substance abuse and structure it such that they have an incentive to do better.

Much like the earned income tax credit, where the benefit shrinks the more money you earn, but not enough such that your total take-home is less if you work more, you can do the same with housing benefits.

Have them pay nothing at first until they get their lives in order, then increase what they pay for rent as they earn income, but never so much such that they take home less the more they earn, and also provide a route for them to move on to more traditional low cost housing, and you could have a system that actually works.

And we all would benefit from it. Fewer people defacating on the street and instead being productive members of society contributing to economic growth is a great thing!
Click to expand...

and what if they don't want to work.

Free housing
Free health care.
Free food.

If you give people that don't give a shit everything, why do you expect them to give a shit all of a sudden?
 
c3k said:
Texas...didn’t that race have an incredible amount of outside money flooding in and all sorts of Hollywood and media endorsements of the guy who lost?

Couple that with the left wing drive to import illegals, make them citizens, and then own their votes.

Not too much of “on their own.”
Click to expand...

all that outside money is bad if it was spent on a conservative
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
I'm all for using metrics to determine if something like this is successful.

These metrics have to be designed carefully though, or they will be highly misleading.
Click to expand...
Not disagreeing at all.


If you just look at the number of homeless people on the streets before and after, this completely ignores the fact that SF is surrounded by the rest of the country, and may attract other homeless people. You also can't know what the trend in homelessness had been had they not taken this action, so a true baseline is very difficut to establish.
Click to expand...
That in itself does say something, we're not dealing with just SAN FRANCISCO homeless people, we're dealing with homeless from all over who come to San Francisco because of favorable weather, favorable programs, pro bono lawyers who fight for homeless people taking a shit in the streets as a non criminal act. Now all of a sudden millions will be spent for the homeless, you're damn skippy it'll attract other homeless people, and that in itself sounds like a failure of the program.
 
opfreak said:
and what if they don't want to work.

Free housing
Free health care.
Free food.

If you give people that don't give a shit everything, why do you expect them to give a shit all of a sudden?
Click to expand...

Because it's cheaper to give them a house than it is to pay for the medical issues they cause or suffer from by living on the street.

Utah's been giving the chronic homeless a house for a while now as part of the Housing First project. Studies consistently show a net savings in tax payer burden from that project.

I don't care if they give a shit or not. I don't care if they ever feel motivated to earn enough money to spend on luxury goods. I care that they carry diseases. I care that they negatively impact society as a whole.

And I'm happy to let those that most benefited from society to help improve society. Pay it back and all that.
 
Biznatch said:
Obviously if the party in power can draw their own maps they will do it in their favor..... So how about we make a bi-partisan committee that's responsible for drawing the maps....
Click to expand...

Thats his points smart one... You can't. Being non-bias is humanly not possibly. You're bias. I'm bias. We're all bias.
 
Cyraxx said:
Thats his points smart one... You can't. Being non-bias is humanly not possibly. You're bias. I'm bias. We're all bias.
Click to expand...
yup and every time you make a choice its discrimination.

why is this on front page?!
 
kllrnohj said:
Because it's cheaper to give them a house than it is to pay for the medical issues they cause or suffer from by living on the street.

Utah's been giving the chronic homeless a house for a while now as part of the Housing First project. Studies consistently show a net savings in tax payer burden from that project.

I don't care if they give a shit or not. I don't care if they ever feel motivated to earn enough money to spend on luxury goods. I care that they carry diseases. I care that they negatively impact society as a whole.

And I'm happy to let those that most benefited from society to help improve society. Pay it back and all that.
Click to expand...

The poster I responded to was making a different argument.

I don't see why you feel that we should be forced to take money from people that work, to people that choose not too.
 
pendragon1 said:
yup and every time you make a choice its discrimination.

why is this on front page?!
Click to expand...

The closest you can get to non-bias would be if districts were drawn in an automated way with computer programming....

.... But that would also require a 3rd party audit review of the writer's code as well.
 
opfreak said:
The poster I responded to was making a different argument.

I don't see why you feel that we should be forced to take money from people that work, to people that choose not too.
Click to expand...

"Choose not to." Interesting. To be an entrepreneur, one needs money. Otherwise, if one has no money, working for someone else is a must. In this case, however, the decision isn't on the one who is now searching for work, but on the one that is hiring.

In the end, the "choice" of working is only a choice when the lack of a job/activity isn't the issue in the first place. A bum can choose to work all day, be 100% committed to it. Good luck finding a job!
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
For someone who is working 3 jobs just to make rent and feed their kids, doesn't have a car, so they can't justify paying licensing fees, it is both financially difficult, and difficult to find the time to get some of these documents in order.
Click to expand...

How did they get a job without an ID?

How do they rent an apartment without an ID?

How did they buy that 6 pack of beer without an ID?


Unless they are homeless, don't work, and never drink, they should already have an ID.
 
cdr_74_premium said:
"Choose not to." Interesting. To be an entrepreneur, one needs money. Otherwise, if one has no money, working for someone else is a must. In this case, however, the decision isn't on the one who is now searching for work, but on the one that is hiring.

In the end, the "choice" of working is only a choice when the lack of a job/activity isn't the issue in the first place. A bum can choose to work all day, be 100% committed to it. Good luck finding a job!
Click to expand...

and yet somehow a bunch of illegals find work every day.
 
Krenum said:
Reason #5356 not to move to or visit that shithole.
Click to expand...

I was born in Southern California, and I'm married to someone else who was born here.
Both our families still live here, and that's the main reason we are still here.

I was lucky enough to buy a house in a nice area when the prices where much less.
This keeps us somewhat insulated from the worse of the social problems.
However, the high cost of living is making it more and more difficult to consider retiring here.
 
cdr_74_premium said:
"Choose not to." Interesting. To be an entrepreneur, one needs money. Otherwise, if one has no money, working for someone else is a must. In this case, however, the decision isn't on the one who is now searching for work, but on the one that is hiring.

In the end, the "choice" of working is only a choice when the lack of a job/activity isn't the issue in the first place. A bum can choose to work all day, be 100% committed to it. Good luck finding a job!
Click to expand...

Yes many many Homeless people are homeless because they choose to. They do not want responsibilities,rules or anything interrupting their substance abuse.

There are two Major homeless shelters in my town.

Shelter A:

Only basic rules, and most of the time the rules are not enforced.
The shelter is constantly full and never has enough supplies.
Massive problem with crime and drug use at the shelter.
Shelter is disgusting and a breeding ground for disease because the people are not forced to clean up after themselves.


Shelter B:

Lots of rules that you have to read, sign that you read and understand and you get a copy of them.
If rules are not followed then you are kicked out.
One of the rules is no drug use, and you have to take periodic drug tests to prove...
Another rule is that the "Guests" have to do basic chores around the facility to help keep it clean.
Has Cable tv, video games and is like a nice mid range hotel.



When the homeless get a choice guess which one they choose?.... 9 out of 10 choose to go to shelter A. Shelter A is almost always full. Shelter B is never full. If A is full then instead of going to B they just asked to be dropped off on the street.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Bet we know this isn't the case.

Other countries, very successful countries, are able to have these programs, pay for them, and also actually benefit from them.

We know it works in all the Scandinavian countries, and we are at least as good as they are. God damnit, this is America, and if anyone else can do something, so can we. We are not less capable. We are just less willing.
Click to expand...


Yeah, actually we DO know this is the case.

Other countries don't have THREE HUNDRED MILLION PEOPLE and aren't using local tax raiding to solve a national issue.

Scandiavian countries aren't the US.
The people don't have the same issues or culture that the US does.
Consequently, the homeless react differently too.

Here in the US, simply throwing more money at the homeless problem WILL NOT FIX IT.

PERIOD!

And yeah, this is America.
And up until the implementation of the social safety net, Freedom also meant you were FREE TO STARVE AND DIE if you didn't participate in society.

I'm not saying these people don't need help.
I'm simply saying more money isn't the answer.
Better, more tailored help might be.
And I'm not willing to open the door to what could be an endless taxation spiral so some idiots can virtue signal about how caring and supportive they are.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
The 14th Amendment grants the right of all men who are citizens to vote. The 19th Amendment adds women. Their economic condition or availability of documents cannot constitutionally prevent them from doing so.
Click to expand...

No. But common fucking sense SHOULD.

Nobody's saying they CANNOT. We're saying that there are consequences. And it's not society's duty to shield these people from those consequences.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Bet we know this isn't the case.

Other countries, very successful countries, are able to have these programs, pay for them, and also actually benefit from them.

We know it works in all the Scandinavian countries, and we are at least as good as they are. God damnit, this is America, and if anyone else can do something, so can we. We are not less capable. We are just less willing.
Click to expand...

The only reason and I mean the ONLY reason other countries are able to afford their massive social welfare states is due to America providing the protection. If we quit all those other countries would have been invaded by russia and would be living under communism. If all those other countries had to pay for even a fraction of their actual defence bill...they would be either going bankrupt or calling for massive social reform(Or invaded lol). The UK already has tax rates north of 55% if they had to start paying for their own military spending what are they going to do tax everyone 100%?
 
Krenum said:
Yeah, other countries have those programs, and you know what? Their governments tax the shit out of the citizens. Funny thing is, the citizens think their getting stuff for free. LOL. Nothing is for free.
Click to expand...
Whoa whoa whoa.

I have heard there IS such a thing as a free...lunch.
 
Joust said:
Whoa whoa whoa.

I have heard there IS such a thing as a free...lunch.
Click to expand...

Nope. Not even the free donut & cup of coffee you got in the office this morning. Somebody, somewhere had to make it and the ingredients purchased.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Because of issues like gerrymandering, targeted voter suppression, money in us politics, where wealthy donors give money to campaigns of rheir choice giving those campaigns an outsized advertising advantage, and the electoral college and fixed two senator cpunt per state regardless of size, which favors more rural conservative states over more urbanized left leaning ones, the majority needs to win elections by well above the actual simple majority in order to enact policy, so more often than not the minority gets their way.
Click to expand...

Its hard to tell if that was sarcasm or not. Yeah wealthy donors can have great influence, but this is done by left leaning candidates very frequently. Take Michael Bloomberg and his campaign of pouring millions into his pet issues via ballot initiatives in numerous western states. Lets not forget Gates, Paul Allen. All left leaning. No doubt there are right wing donors, but there is absolutely no shortage of wealthy liberals forcing their agenda down our throats via donations that normal Americans simply cannot match.

Regarding electoral college & the two senator system. Checks & balances, how do they work? This is by design so the minority doesn't get crushed. This is a good thing. Or is protecting minorities only a good thing when said minorities do not share your same point of view? It was one of the few mechanisms built into the government to protect minorities. The lower house is skewed by population. The upper is not. This makes it fair. Who's vote is worth more? On one hand each vote should be equal. On the other hand people tend to have a herd like mentality; more on this below. When you have this mentality forming, such as places like San Francisco, individuality and unique thought is suppressed. It is easier for one influential individual to influence many more rationally ignorant (or outright ignorant) people than those who live in more sparsely populated areas. In turn a few key individuals votes, donations, or campaigning can go much further. The result is more people writing in candidates because they were told to. This gives more weight to certain individual's vote.

Is one thought process correct? No both have pluses and both have flaws. Which is why the lower & upper house are the way they are - to give the minority more power while also giving the majority more power. If we went one direction for both houses either the minority gets screwed all the time or the majority gets screwed all the time.

Zarathustra[H] said:
To be fair, both sides of our political spectrum have used these questionable tactics, but the conservative minority of the population has been much more effective at doing so.
Click to expand...

Hardly. Look at the number of left wing media outlets compared to right wing. FOX News, Brietbart.... and? The left wing has been far more successful. For example, renaming illegal aliens into "immigrants" - lumping them in with legal immigrants. This has become a focal point of the left recently. The right is "anti immigrant" for wanting to enforce immigration laws and prevent H1B abuse. Clearly spreading misinformation, outright lying and using straw man arguments has been become a staple of the Democrat party these past few years. Then we have idiots who believe what they were told and vote without thinking of looking into an issue. A lot of rationally ignorant people fall for these tactics for a variety of issues. Hence the electoral college. This isn't exclusive to the Democrats. Go to any deep red state and you'll see the same. But the Democrats have become far, far more successful at professionally flinging poo and straw man arguments.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
And we all would benefit from it. Fewer people defacating on the street and instead being productive members of society contributing to economic growth is a great thing!
Click to expand...

Let's come back in a year and see how that's working out.

Personally I look forward to hearing more about how deep the shit is literally getting in the streets. At some point some sanity should eventually prevail but apparently things aren't bad enough for the rational people to stuff the batshit crazy people in charge right now.

So glad I no longer have any reason to go anywhere near SF and that my memories of it were when it was a lot more pleasurable.
 
purple_monster said:
I'd like to tell you that you are full of shit from over here in Texas. You only need a utility bill or any kind of "official mail", from somewhere that has your name on it. If you can't get that then ANY paycheck is also proof. Now my question to you is, if we don't require any ID, what exactly prevents me from getting back in line and voting over, and over, and over, and over again. At some point, you need an ID, to register or whatever.
Click to expand...

Shit our elections aren't even as secure as most third world countries. Finger, ink, piece of paper.

One and done.

If I hear one more asshole spout off about blockchain and voting god help them if they are with reach of me.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
I'd be curious to hear what you think about his experience doesn't line up with reality.
Click to expand...

Seriously? Being an adult is hard? I'm supposed to sympathize with that? The IRS is complicated and paying to get taxes computed unfairly disadvantages the poor - we should abolish income taxes too. Oh wait, over 50% of the country doesn't pay income taxes anyway so scratch that :rolleyes:

People can buy more than 80 lottery tickets or more than a few six packs of beer a year but can't be arsed ONE TIME to get an ID and I'm supposed to be sympathetic?

Give me a break. Of course it takes some effort to establish a new ID because - wait for it - verifying identity so the initial issuance of the ID is valid is the whole point of having an official ID!

It's not like you have to do this every year. Democrats can pay protesters and bus their asses all over the place to protest but can't organize to get people who really want them ID's?!? Give me a break.
 
Wierdo said:
We'll see how this solution works out, SF needs to tackle this issue badly, victim of its own success. They let companies and major rental conglomerates walk in unchecked, but didn't put in sufficient housing investment to cope with the rapid imbalance, there's still allot of work to do in this area, and this is just the first step.
Click to expand...

If the government and NIMBYs would get out of the way the market would correct itself far more quickly and efficiently than any government "solution".

https://www.collectorsweekly.com/articles/demolishing-the-california-dream/

Entirely self-inflicted by people who apparently still don't understand the meaning of unintended consequences.
 
nutzo said:
I don't know the specifics of Texas's law, but if even half of what you wrote is true it needs to be changed.

However, in most other stated that have Voter ID laws, the laws provide for free ID's for lower income people.
Click to expand...

Yeah, like most propaganda, what he posted is full of shit too.

Look here: https://www.votetexas.gov/register-to-vote/need-id.html

Scroll down to the section: 4. What is a reasonable impediment?

Yeah, it's completely unreasonable and targeting poor people only /s
 
aaronspink said:
Yeah, that whole list is bullshit, just going to hit some of them though...

Boarding an airplane: FALSE
Car Reg: FALSE
renting X: FALSE
Train tickets: FALSE
mail pickup: FALSE
Doctor/hospital: false
Prescription: false
etc.

BS list is complete BS.
Click to expand...
Derp much?
Boarding an airplane:
tsa.gov said:
Adult passengers 18 and over must show valid identification at the airport checkpoint in order to travel.
Click to expand...
Car registration:
WI DMV said:
Visit your local DMV office with:

  • A completed Title/License Plate application (Form MV1).
  • Proof of identification (e.g. driver's license, U.S. passport, military ID).
  • Payment for all applicable registration, title, and tax fees (see Wisconsin Vehicle Registration Fees below).
    • Even if you're not applying for a title at this time, the state requires you to pay the title fee. You will not be re-charged when you apply for a WI title.
Click to expand...


Renting X:
Enterprise.com said:
In order to rent from Enterprise Rent-A-Car in the United States and Canada, all drivers must meet the following requirements:
Click to expand...
Train Tickets:
Read it yourself

You might be right on mail pickup, and technically only *some* prescriptions require an ID, but you're only fooling yourself if you think "the whole list is bullshit."
 
capt_cope said:
  •  The Public Interest Legal Foundation recently discovered that Virginia removed 5,556 non-citizens from its voter rolls between 2011 and last May. Among these non-Americans, 1,852 had cast a total of 7,474 illegal ballots across multiple elections.
Click to expand...
Thank you for that citation. It was from one county and they only reason they caught them is they were at one time legal aliens that overstayed their visa's. They FOIAd the list of people who overstayed their visa's and compared it to public voter roles.

Ruh roh! Popular narrative destroyed! One sample from one county and they turned up almost 2,000 fraudulent voters.

Voter fraud is as rare as getting struck by lightning? I'd laugh if it wasn't so tragic.

But beware of those whacky Russians! They're the real evil!

And then people wonder why there's division in the country?!?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top