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Samsung SA850 on PLS 24" - Test and Review (what you have been waiting for)
- Thread starter albovin
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Firstly, I've been a member of these boards for over 10 years and never have nor would I ever intentionally mislead anyone on a product that they were looking for advice on. I have no allegiance to any product line, and am unaffected whether you buy a Dell, Asus, Samsung, whatever.
Secondly, I'm borderline between a complete noob to aspiring novice when it comes to the ins and outs of monitor specs and performance. I personally ascribe more to the philosophy of "real world performance", as does this forum and website in case you've missed it. So my test was real simple. I turned off all lights, set a pure black image on the screen (one I downloaded when i did a search of "how to test for backlight bleed"), and took a picture. All settings were untouched, factory settings out of the box. And without the perfect pitch balckness in the room, and me focusing on the bottom right hand corner, i really detect no bleed at all, just like i don't while i'm typing this post.
If you want to know what it looks like when it's sideways, underwater, with a 3d camera...go find someone else. I'm giving my honest impression of a monitor that i could just as easily return and go back to my U2711 if i didn't like it. What I do know is that my eyes hurt alot less (not at all actually), and the picture looks equal to better than what I was used to, probably more due to the AG coating than anything else.
I'm also a novice with a digital camera...i also have settings that were probably out of the box. I don't have time for that shit, I have work and a family to consider first, and then oc'ing and gaming after that...to be honest i had to fish my digital camera out of a drawer because with my cell phone, i haven't bothered with it in years.
So in short, I'm giving you my opinion. Take it for what it's worth...but please don't question my motives again young whippersnapper.
@conscript
No offense, but you say that you can live with the backlight bleed. Based upon your picture, I couldn't.
So that means that either a) you are more tolerant of the imperfections, or b) your picture makes the BLB look worse than it really is.
Snowdog is simply suggesting that this can be approached in a slightly more scientific way. Since acceptable standards are subjective, quantitative methods are really all we have to go by. I am grateful for your real-world impressions; they have been very helpful. Would you at least consider taking another picture with the suggested settings just so that others can form their own opinions?
No offense, but you say that you can live with the backlight bleed. Based upon your picture, I couldn't.
So that means that either a) you are more tolerant of the imperfections, or b) your picture makes the BLB look worse than it really is.
Snowdog is simply suggesting that this can be approached in a slightly more scientific way. Since acceptable standards are subjective, quantitative methods are really all we have to go by. I am grateful for your real-world impressions; they have been very helpful. Would you at least consider taking another picture with the suggested settings just so that others can form their own opinions?
Sure, but everyone has a different tolerance for issues, which is why we need some consistency in these shots so objective comparisons can be made.
I have also said similar when people post ridiculously overexposed shots last several seconds.
As is I can't really tell if you monitor is any better than other examples shown. They looked worse, but they had longer exposures.
The only real sRGB emulation is offered by NEC PA series and possibly (no reliable reports so far) by similar Eizos.
sRGB emulation requires 10bit color presentation and appropriate level of electronics.
Consumer grade monitors like Samsung SA850 are not supposed to have these rather expesive features. So it's a must for them to have a proper sRGB gamut with no issues.
The updated shopping list for 24":
NEC P241w (the new sRGB model - higher end)
Dell U2412 (budget)
The Samsung SA850 could be the strongest candidate for a mid-level position if colors issue is resolved.
If he had rational arguments he wouldn't be a troll.
Monitors aren't designed to be used in a dark room, and not having enough ambient lighting can also cause unnecessary eye strain. U2711 doesn't have fantastic contrast ratio anyway because it uses the older H-IPS technology.
Some people are willing to talk about "crappy blacks" (black bars) forgetting about the picture itself.
Look at this video PLS vs PVA.
"Black bars" are "crappy" on PLS but the picture is "crappy" on PVA!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33H7AnoAXEs
Look at this video PLS vs PVA.
"Black bars" are "crappy" on PLS but the picture is "crappy" on PVA!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33H7AnoAXEs
jeremyshaw
[H]F Junkie
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What?
If someone says blacks they mean black level. If someone is talking about black bars they will say black bars.
It's no secret that IPS/PLS has worse black level than other technologies, caused primarily by lower contrast ratio. LG IPS is improving somewhat in this regard though, with the newest E-IPS panels being very similar to the newest TN, as well as AH-IPS on the way.
Good example of the shocking backlight bleed in SA850 series.
It does have an insane back, thoughA very hot running insane backlight...
My monitor has a more powerful backlight than the U2711 (Dell 2408WFP, 400 nit) and it's perfectly fine for me at 20/100 brightness in a room with a single 15W fluorescent globe directly above me.
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Black level is not determined by conrast ratio.
CR is what is determined by black level and stable viewing angles.
Static CR is calculated after simple measurements of white and black (for a particular brightness of white). These simple measurements and calculation do not take into consideration the key factor - image stability from off axis view.
So real CR depends on good viewing angles & low black level.
In this video (Episode 3) one can see how stable is CR on PLS (800:1) vs unstable on PVA with higher CR (1100:1).
In this video of three screens please look at the two at the background. One of them is darker from the front and brighter from angle view.
Note that all three monitors are set to the same level of brightness of white (not black).
And it's very often happens on forums: whinning about "black bars" without looking at something between them.
PLS demonstrated absolutely fabulous black level 0.045 cd/2 in the test.
Please mark it as a "no secret" #2 because "no secret" #1 is 0.048 cd/m2 on H-IPS RGB LED that has been known for three years already.
S-PVA typical minimum is not lower than 0.1 cd/m2 (the Dell 2408 has 0.11), and it's only c-PVA that went as low as slightly <0.02 cd/m2.
Please update your "no secret" records.
Oh man I want this monitor, are there any other sizes available and what prices? I really favor Samsung for all my televisions and monitors but they have become expensive lately. They used to be a lot cheaper and good bang for the buck. I have been waiting for a good 1920x1200 monitor to come out from Samsung again. I am currently using the Samsung T240HD.
Yes, this is a tempting monitor. However the test unit has demonstrated its pros and cons.
Full review of the Samsung SA850
Sailor_Moon
Gawd
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- 611
Both implementations are are comparably good. Differences:
- Handling of color space simulations with a color gamut larger than the display gamut. Only NEC implements a gamut mapping (relative colorimetric ri) that ensures an ideal mapping of colors inside the actual display gamut while other colors are mapped to the gamut boundary (which can lead to some clipping).
- Some newer Eizo models have a gamut update function which can be used to compensate for drifts (the color space emulations are based on a fixed display state and not adapted on measurement base)
- ColorNavigator and SpectraView II are showing a different behaviour regarding profilation when an emulation target is choosen
There are some other screens with flexible color space emulations (e.g. HP LP2480zx or some Quato screens (our test model had some linearity problems but work is in progress here)).
Best regards
Denis
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Arguing semantics? You seem to have understood what I was saying, and frankly I was trying to dumb it down, which seemed wise given the statement that I was correcting.
I have never heard of the term 'real contrast ratio', and most people don't use their PC from a 70 degree angle and thus don't experience issues from IPS glow.
Do you mean this?
"In Eco mode the screen brightness went as low as 34.8 cd/m2 (white) and 0.045 cd/m2 (black) with the same stable CR 773:1"
Given that noone uses a monitor at 34.8cd/m2 brightness the 0.045 black level spec is all but useless. Common sense dictates that you would compare the black point of two monitors at the standard of 120cd/m2.
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... that is a key problem understanding CR.
Different LCD technologies are different currencies.
You cannot compare CR (just numbers on paper) of different technologies if you want to talk about image quality seriously.
Image stability=good viewing angles is a key factor that contributes in Real CR (what we actually see).
The screen below has measured static CR 1100:1 (for the colorimeter).
Note: This screen has no issues with BL uniformity.
What part of the screen is 1100:1?
What is estimated Real CR here?
Unlike this monitor, the Samsung SA850 with PLS demonstrated very stable (IPS-like) image in the test. So we can say that its Real CR is very close to measured CR (800:1) in wide range of viewing anlgles (except diagonal angles).
As noted in the review, the Samsung SA850 screen has slghtly better matte finish than a reference NEC 2490WUXi, but there will be much more visible advantage over the Dell U2412.
The Dell has a little better mechanics.
The Samsung features ambient light sensor.
There are no reasons (according to a couple of early reviews of the Dell U2412) to talk about anything below the Samsung SA850 in terms of picture quality and response times.
On the contrary, the Samsung SA850 very sadly demonstrates sRGB color gamut mismatch and some disbalance in colors while the Dell U2412 passes this test with no problem.
The color issue is indeed very sad because otherwise I would have said: forget about anything else but the Samsung SA850.
If this is not an issue for you, go ahead and start looking for a quality unit.
So-called PVA black level is quite a gimmick as I could see again from direct comparison of PLS and PVA.
Current advantage of PLS vs IPS is mild matte finish with minimal crystalline effect.
@albovin
There is no doubt that you are more of an expert on monitors than I am, but I am afraid I must take issue with you on this. I just haven't seen IPS to have the same black levels as PVA. I'm sure there are some high-priced exceptions, but that has been my experience. IPS may be a better technology overall, especially for color critical work, but blacks do not appear to be a strength to my eyes.
In any event, the sRGB issues coupled with the backlight bleed would seem to rule out the SA850 from serious consideration. And I really appreciate the excellent review.
There is no doubt that you are more of an expert on monitors than I am, but I am afraid I must take issue with you on this. I just haven't seen IPS to have the same black levels as PVA. I'm sure there are some high-priced exceptions, but that has been my experience. IPS may be a better technology overall, especially for color critical work, but blacks do not appear to be a strength to my eyes.
In any event, the sRGB issues coupled with the backlight bleed would seem to rule out the SA850 from serious consideration. And I really appreciate the excellent review.
I agree with you that absolute black level is not the strongest part of *PS (IPS/PLS).
But when we make comparisons with other technologies we have to take into consideration the viewing angles factor.
I would give Samsung a chance.
Closing eyes to issues you have mentioned, it's the third (after two 24" NEC brothers) most pleasant monitor on my desk ever.
You are most welcome.
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If you mean "to be calibrated to sRGB to produce an effect equal to proper sRGB emulation" the answer is: No, I don't think so.
Something has to be done by the manufacturer.
Whoisthisreally
[H]ard|Gawd
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How visually significant is it relative to true wide gamut?
edit - mentioned in review
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WG monitors blow up reds and greens but are somewhat mercyful to the blue color.
The Samsung SA850 is different.
Reds and greens are acceptable (mild oversaturation) but the blue color is too strong.
This observation corresponds to color gamut diagrams.
Unlike WG monitors the Samsung SA850 has no red faces.
So it's a usable monitor.
The Samsung SA850 is different.
Reds and greens are acceptable (mild oversaturation) but the blue color is too strong.
This observation corresponds to color gamut diagrams.
Unlike WG monitors the Samsung SA850 has no red faces.
So it's a usable monitor.
There is some color disbalance in 24" model.
Same can be expected from 27".
If color accuracy is not critical for you, there is nothing better for the price of 24".
There are more players around the price level of the 27" model: Apple Cinema 27", NEC P241w 24".
Whoisthisreally
[H]ard|Gawd
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Everyone who has spent on a proper monitor knows this feeling.
The time taken deciding speaks to the nature of the man I think.
Initial Impressions:
I have the monitor hooked up to my wife's computer. I have not calibrated it, yet, because she has some work to finish right now. So, these impressions are very immediate and likely premature.
Build:
+ The monitor is well-built and attractive. Assembly is easy and intuitive. Cable organization is nice.
Physical Adjustment:
+ Very adjustable, including height, pivot, rotate, and tilt.
- Metal pin used to maintain height could be easily lost. Since I have the monitor at its lowest height position, the pin is not used. I secured it to the back of the monitor with a twisty-tie.
- Screen cannot be lowered past 3.5 inches above the stand. This is a MAJOR flaw. The best way to view a monitor (at least, according to Men's Health magazine), is to lower the screen slightly and tilt it up. This way you are looking slightly down into the screen, which is supposed to be better on the eyes and neck. Unless you are Wilt Chamberlain, this is impossible on the S24A850DW.
Image:
+ Colors are bright and vivid. I have not performed any calibration, yet.
+ The AG coating is mild and not noticeable, while still reducing glare. Excellent job.
+ The screen is easy on the eyes and pleasant to view. Text is sharp and clear.
- Default brightness wast set to 100, which was painful indeed. I bumped it down to 60, which seems fine for now.
- I cannot say for certain without calibration, but it looks like blues have a bit too much "zing", which could be a potential problem - I don't yet know to what extent, but I believe it will be acceptable for non color-critical work.
Backlight:
~ I have not had the opportunity to evaluate the the screen in a dark environment, so I cannot say. I know this is of critical importance, and I will report on this as soon as I am able. All I can say at the moment is that I don't notice it in a relatively dim room with no artificial light source.
Overall, impressions are very positive thus far. I will say that the inability to lower the screen as much as I would like is more of an issue than one might think. I think my wife will get used to it, but it really is a disappointment. As long as it calibrates reasonably well, I would absolutely recommend this monitor for cases where an NEC would be overkill.
Keep in mind, that all of this is pending my evaluation for backlight bleed, which will be performed tonight. Also, I have only had a very brief amount of time with it, so my opinion could easily change as it become increasingly more empirical.
I have the monitor hooked up to my wife's computer. I have not calibrated it, yet, because she has some work to finish right now. So, these impressions are very immediate and likely premature.
Build:
+ The monitor is well-built and attractive. Assembly is easy and intuitive. Cable organization is nice.
Physical Adjustment:
+ Very adjustable, including height, pivot, rotate, and tilt.
- Metal pin used to maintain height could be easily lost. Since I have the monitor at its lowest height position, the pin is not used. I secured it to the back of the monitor with a twisty-tie.
- Screen cannot be lowered past 3.5 inches above the stand. This is a MAJOR flaw. The best way to view a monitor (at least, according to Men's Health magazine), is to lower the screen slightly and tilt it up. This way you are looking slightly down into the screen, which is supposed to be better on the eyes and neck. Unless you are Wilt Chamberlain, this is impossible on the S24A850DW.
Image:
+ Colors are bright and vivid. I have not performed any calibration, yet.
+ The AG coating is mild and not noticeable, while still reducing glare. Excellent job.
+ The screen is easy on the eyes and pleasant to view. Text is sharp and clear.
- Default brightness wast set to 100, which was painful indeed. I bumped it down to 60, which seems fine for now.
- I cannot say for certain without calibration, but it looks like blues have a bit too much "zing", which could be a potential problem - I don't yet know to what extent, but I believe it will be acceptable for non color-critical work.
Backlight:
~ I have not had the opportunity to evaluate the the screen in a dark environment, so I cannot say. I know this is of critical importance, and I will report on this as soon as I am able. All I can say at the moment is that I don't notice it in a relatively dim room with no artificial light source.
Overall, impressions are very positive thus far. I will say that the inability to lower the screen as much as I would like is more of an issue than one might think. I think my wife will get used to it, but it really is a disappointment. As long as it calibrates reasonably well, I would absolutely recommend this monitor for cases where an NEC would be overkill.
Keep in mind, that all of this is pending my evaluation for backlight bleed, which will be performed tonight. Also, I have only had a very brief amount of time with it, so my opinion could easily change as it become increasingly more empirical.
Thanks a lot for your brief report but all that was described word for word in the initial post - Samsung SA850 Test and Review.
Anyway thanks again for the confirmation.
The main and the only question to you, please: how does blue color (the blue sky) look on your SA850 in comparison with your second monitor?
Thank you.
Anyway thanks again for the confirmation.
The main and the only question to you, please: how does blue color (the blue sky) look on your SA850 in comparison with your second monitor?
Thank you.
I haven't calibrated it yet, so I can't really talk about the color accuracy.
If you and I noticed the same things, then I guess that just reinforces the observations. With such a small sample pool so far, it's hard to know what is unique to a given specimen and what can be generalized across the line.
Until my wife relinquishes the monitor to me for further evaluation, this is the best I can do. The backlight uniformity test in darkness will be the defining moment.
Just curious, do you use your monitor much in total darkness? I suppose that I might if the black light performance was better (come on OLED!)
Can these color issues be corrected with calibration on the video card or operating system end of things?
Can these color issues be corrected with calibration on the video card or operating system end of things?