Samsung F2380

Discussion in 'Displays' started by adamj023, Jul 1, 2009.

  1. adamj023

    adamj023 Limp Gawd

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    Samsung F2380 is in stock with plenty of available. Next set of distributors and stores will be getting them any day now.

    Saw image comparison website which showed the images for the Dell 2209WA vs Samsung F2380 side by side.

    Which one do you all think looks better?

    http://www.it.com.cn/diy/bigimg/2009/06/14/06/539511_54.html

    Without giving away which is which but if you look closely enough you know which is which but don't till after you look at the images.

    The Samsung cPVA display IMHO looks like the one to get. Has the perfect combination of size, resolution and a quality panel. 1" more display room to boot than the Dell.
     
  2. J W

    J W [H]ard|Gawd

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    is this a glossy screen? The description on Provantage says it's glossy?

    God I hope it's not.
     
  3. Silent.Sin

    Silent.Sin Gawd

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    Seems like the image scaling is really off in that preview...didn't notice that in the other preview which is comparing the exact same monitors I believe.

    Also, by those previews the screen is not glossy like Provantage is saying.
     
  4. hhara

    hhara Gawd

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    The one on the left looks better to me, just cause it appears to have more color ( if thats the right word).
     
  5. adamj023

    adamj023 Limp Gawd

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    Samsung doesnt have the specs up on the USA website yet. Provantage specs are wrong however.

    The model # and part # is the same. I will buy at B+H or J+R in the city cause I want the monitor locally. I assume they will pricematch with other vendors and I will try to get them to.

    J+R and B+H doesnt have them in stock for me yet to view. :-( Adorama is also another vendor to use. But I dont know if they will carry this monitor.

    Inventories will be heavier by July 10th and should be in stores by then even though online distributors have them in stock right now.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2009
  6. ToastyX

    ToastyX [H]ard|Gawd

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    Those pictures show gamma shifting, which I was hoping would be improved, but it doesn't look like it. The response time picture doesn't look so good either, but maybe that's with the lowest overdrive setting, which can be changed according to the manual. The contrast looks amazing though. I just hope it doesn't have 50+ ms of lag like all their other PVA monitors.

    I'm getting one this week so I can be the guinea pig.
     
  7. Lostman

    Lostman [H]Lite

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    Yup, the response time looks a bit worrying. But the black levels / contrast are noticeably better!
     
  8. adamj023

    adamj023 Limp Gawd

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    "A high-definition vertically aligned liquid crystal (LC) microdisplay exhibits a excellent contrast ratio, but its fringing field effect splits the bright state unevenly and leads to a very slow response time. By utilizing a circularly polarized light instead of conventional linearly polarized light, we have overcome the long-standing problems of poor sharpness, low brightness, and slow response time."

    So the answer is yes it is improved in all areas. This is why I waited so long. I am not sure yet if I will jump in on this one or wait it out just yet.

    http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/ser...00087000003031110000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes

    cPVA is a PVA screen with circularly polarized light.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_polarization

    cPVA F2380 is running $300+ right now.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2009
  9. perra

    perra n00bie

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    Seems to be a nice display. Blacks - Colour are really good, a bit of ghosting and when viewed from angel colour get a bit vanished. DELL 2009WA have better viewing angel but you get "IPS-glow" in black areas. Can't see any input lag test clearly...
    Power consuption seems low compared to 2209WA. So hopefully it will be quiet if Samsund done it right.
    Let's hope PRAD.de get one to test.

     
  10. drleospaceman

    drleospaceman Gawd

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    This will tide me over well until OLED :p
     
  11. Armatoste

    Armatoste Limp Gawd

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    I believe this is the gamma shifting Toasty was talking about.

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Still, for $300 this seems like a bargain on a 1080p non tn monitor.
     
  12. Snowdog

    Snowdog Pasty Nerd with Poor Cardio

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    I imagine he is talking about this (and the shots near it):
    http://www.it.com.cn/diy/bigimg/2009/06/14/06/539511_74.html

    If you go through the whole series you can see some things (but it is hard to tell how they are setup, and if this is representative).


    But what the pictures show of the E-IPS vs C-PVA is not that different from the past.

    Here C-PVA has blacker black and no visible glow off angle on black.

    But:

    E-IPS has better gradients with C-PVA showing banding, E-IPS are solid.
    There is a lot of black crush in the C-PVA shots were most of the shadow detail is missing. E-IPS has visible shadow details.
    Viewing angle causes the C-PVA colors to fade while the E-IPS is stable.

    Essentially this is just like S-PVA vs H-IPS. It is unlikely to change opinions on either side.
     
  13. steal

    steal 2[H]4U

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    Yeah the black crush/gamma shifting kinda turned me off from this when looking at the pics. While the contrast ratio is obviously better than the 2209WA, shadow detail was very, very bad compared to the 2209WA.

    I think I could live with slight horizontal gamma shifting, but that black crush... :(
     
  14. Javatango

    Javatango Limp Gawd

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  15. okashira

    okashira [H]ard|Gawd

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    christ, thank you samsung for finally bringing a pc monitor with the image quality of larger lcd tvs (read: SPVA and higher then 2000:1 contrast)

    ive been using my LNT5271f exclusivly for gaming (52" LCD TV) and it blows any pc monitor away in image quality.

    when used in "PC mode" the input lag seems to be not too bad at all.


    where and when can I buy one?
     
  16. perra

    perra n00bie

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    ToastyX,
    Got the F2380 monitor...?

     
  17. Lostman

    Lostman [H]Lite

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    ToastyX,

    Can't wait what your impressions are on this one. Don't keep us in the dark for too long!
     
  18. psyside

    psyside 2[H]4U

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    Dell 2209WA! the Samsung/s look oversaturated as always.
     
  19. ToastyX

    ToastyX [H]ard|Gawd

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    I'll post a review tomorrow, but I don't think you'll like what I have to say about it.

    I don't think it's circular PVA because I can tell by Haidinger's brush that it's vertically polarized.

    There's no lag, but the ghosting is horrible. It's almost like there's no overdrive.

    The gamma shift is the same as always, but there's no glow.

    The contrast is great, but shadow details are crushed because the gamma is screwed up.

    More details coming in the full review...
     
  20. vjcsmoke

    vjcsmoke [H]ardness Supreme

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    This is a brand new monitor and it won't sport an HDMI port? What were they thinking? And if the black crush/dark detail is bad, forget about it. Don't want it!
    On pic 62. The LCD on the left is clearly a LOT better than the one on the right. Which panel is which thought?

    http://www.it.com.cn/diy/bigimg/2009/06/14/06/539511_61.html
     
  21. chklin

    chklin Limp Gawd

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    Left: 2209WA
    Right: F2380

    It is clearly labeled in page 16 of the article.
     
  22. vjcsmoke

    vjcsmoke [H]ardness Supreme

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    Thanks. I can't read chinese so I was just tuning out most of it except for the pics.
     
  23. okashira

    okashira [H]ard|Gawd

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    you can't calibrate it?:confused:
     
  24. Lostman

    Lostman [H]Lite

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    Is the black crush in line with other PVA screens or worse? In short, is it better than Dell 2408WFP?
     
  25. psyside

    psyside 2[H]4U

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    Sorry but for me the Dell 2209WA is better,bad gamma shift and oversaturation
    on the Samsung.H-IPS still win S/C-PVA IMHO.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2009
  26. chklin

    chklin Limp Gawd

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    Where are all those people who used to yell "photos are useless for judging monitors" and "photos prove nothing" at me eh? :)
     
  27. Lostman

    Lostman [H]Lite

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    The problem with Dell is that it simply can't handle 16:9 input. So for someone like me, who wants a monitor for work and PS3 (Xbox has a scaler unit...), Dell is simply unusable :-(
     
  28. ToastyX

    ToastyX [H]ard|Gawd

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    I don't understand this complaint. DVI is the same as HDMI, so why does it matter? You can just use a DVI-HDMI cable.

    If you want to use this monitor with a PlayStation 3 or as an HDTV, there's no way to calibrate it. You're stuck with the crushed shadow details.

    The crushed shadow detail on this monitor is due to bad calibration, not due to being a PVA screen. It's like they're intentionally fudging the colors but went overboard.
     
  29. Lostman

    Lostman [H]Lite

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    TostyX, you mean calibration through graphic card drivers?

    Is it not possible to adjust the settings on the monitor to get smaller black crush while using the screen with PS3?
     
  30. ToastyX

    ToastyX [H]ard|Gawd

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    I mean the monitor itself is badly calibrated from the factory, like the shadow details are intentionally being crushed, and there's no way to fix this through the monitor settings.
     
  31. albovin

    albovin [H]ard|Gawd

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  32. Lostman

    Lostman [H]Lite

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    *sigh*

    need to start looking for something else then; wasn't worth the wait ;-(

    not sure what now though. I had high hopes for this one!
     
  33. psyside

    psyside 2[H]4U

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    very good review Albovin,unfortunately PVA fails again.
     
  34. ToastyX

    ToastyX [H]ard|Gawd

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    Well, now there are two reviews...

    Dithering?

    I ran into a bit of trouble with this monitor. At first, I thought this was a 6-bit PVA panel because I could see temporal and static dithering, but then I found it only happens when connected to a Mac running Leopard. I tried three other machines: a PlayStation 3, an old PC running Vista, and an old Mac running Tiger, and the dithering wasn't visible on any of those systems, which didn't make any sense. Why would it dither on one system but not anywhere else? Then I tried booting Linux on the same machine and the dithering wasn't present there either.

    I've always suspected Leopard does some kind of dithering because I noticed I could calibrate without getting banding, which shouldn't be possible without some form of dithering because calibration causes shades to be lost, but 8-bit dithering is very hard to see, so I wasn't sure. I'm thinking maybe the monitor is also doing 8-bit dithering and that's clashing with the dithering being done in Leopard, resulting in significant dithering artifacts. This is a deal breaker for me because I was planning to use it with a Mac.

    I'm not 100% sure what's going on, but that makes the most sense. I haven't encountered anything like that before, so I'm not sure what to think. Others will have to verify with their own experiences.


    Lag & Response Time

    There's no lag as far as I can tell, which came as quite a shock, but the ghosting is horrible, regardless of the response time setting. It's almost like there's no overdrive at all. Black to white response time is okay but everything smears against darker backgrounds. It reminds me of PVA panels before overdrive was introduced. I guess that's why S-PVA panels have so much lag. It seems there's no way to get rid of the ghosting on PVA panels without knowing what the next 2-3 frames will be.

    Lag - Samsung F2380 (left) vs. Dell 2209WA (right):
    [​IMG]

    A quick lag test against the Dell 2209WA shows that the Samsung F2380 is very close, maybe a few ms slower due to the response time, but that still puts the lag at under one frame. I showed that the Dell has no lag here: http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1034028590&postcount=1263

    Ghosting - Samsung F2380:
    [​IMG]

    Moving objects smear very badly against dark backgrounds. I don't know how they can call this 8 ms when it's more like 60+ ms. On the Lagom response time test, the top four squares flash red very strongly. The response time setting doesn't seem to have any effect.

    This site also shows similar ghosting: http://www.it.com.cn/diy/monitor/review/2009/06/15/06/539512_20.html

    The Dell 2209WA does much better:
    [​IMG]


    Refresh Rate

    Surprisingly, this monitor supports higher refresh rates without skipping frames:
    [​IMG]

    If it skipped frames, it would look something like this:
    [​IMG]

    It can do 72 Hz with these settings:
    [​IMG]

    This is the highest refresh rate I could squeeze in:
    [​IMG]


    Pixel Structure & Sharpness

    They are using a more sane pixel structure, so there are no issues with sharpness. Some S-PVA panels had a split-pixel structure that caused a vertical blur on darker colors, although not many people complained about that.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    The default sharpness of 60 is the correct sharpness.


    Brightness & Contrast

    This is what I get when the brightness is set to 50:

    Black luminance: 0.051 cd/m²
    White luminance before calibration: 149.686 cd/m² - Contrast = 2935:1
    White luminance after calibration: 128.064 cd/m² - Contrast = 2511:1

    The lowest brightness setting is actually 15. Going lower reduces contrast. When the brightness is set to 15, the white luminance is around 50 cd/m², which is plenty low.

    Contrast - Samsung F2380 (left) vs. Dell 2209WA (right):
    [​IMG]

    That picture is meant to show the contrast difference only, not shadow detail or color accuracy. That picture was taken while I still had them hooked up to the DVI splitter, so any color profiles would have affected both monitors.

    There's actually some minor backlight bleeding in the upper-left corner but it doesn't really show in the picture.


    Viewing Angles & Gamma Shifting

    The viewing angles are the same as always. Every time I try a PVA panel, I see the same crap. The only difference is some S-PVA panels had the pixels pre-tilted for some reason, causing the left side to be significantly brighter. This monitor doesn't have that problem.

    Gamma shift - Samsung F2380 (top) vs. Dell 2209WA (bottom):
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Black doesn't glow:
    [​IMG]


    Colors & Gamma

    The gamma is crap out of the box with shadow details being crushed. It's like they tried to compensate for the gamma shift but went overboard.

    This is how it looks like uncalibrated (compare to the above photos):
    [​IMG]

    There are three gamma settings:

    Mode1 = crush shadow details
    Mode2 = crush shadow details more and add banding
    Mode3 = obliterate all shadow details and add more banding

    There's no way to fix the gamma without calibration, but even that doesn't fully help because the gamma shifting still affects the colors.

    This is the video card's LUT after calibrating to 2.2/D65:
    [​IMG]

    The dark end of the grayscale is crushed so badly that it has to bring the colors way up.

    This site got similar results: http://publish.it168.com/2009/0428/20090428058907.shtml

    The only difference is I didn't adjust the white point before calibration.

    If you want to use it with a PlayStation 3 or as an HDTV, you're stuck with the crushed shadow details.

    The gamut is very close to sRGB:
    [​IMG]


    Coating

    This monitor has a mild anti-glare coating, not aggressive like the Dell 2209WA.


    PlayStation 3

    1080p/1080i/720p/480p are all supported, and there's a PC/AV Mode option, which basically acts as an overscan option. PC Mode has no overscan, while AV Mode has 2% overscan. 1080p has perfect 1:1 mapping in PC Mode.


    Stand

    The monitor is so light that the tension from the stand causes the base to slide when tilting the monitor left or right. Perhaps they should have put a weight in the base.

    Also, don't pull the pin out until after you've assembled the monitor because the shaft will shoot out like a telescope.


    Summary

    Pros:
    No significant lag
    Can do 72 Hz without skipping frames, 76.55 Hz max
    No sharpness issues
    Contrast is very high, no glow
    Can go down to a low brightness
    sRGB gamut
    Mild anti-glare coating
    Supports 1080p/1080i/720p/480p with optional overscan
    Two DVI ports which can be used as HDMI ports


    Cons:
    Poor pixel response, horrible ghosting
    Gamma shifting at slight angles
    Shadow details are crushed without calibration
    Possible dithering issue with Macs running Leopard
     
  35. Lostman

    Lostman [H]Lite

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    So is Dell 2408WFP a better choice? Does it have similar problems with shadow details or does it fare much better? It's now on sale, so it might be worth picking up.

    The only thing I'm worried though is minimum brightness; I've read on Prad.de that 0 brightness is already too bright and I often work in the dark so I don't want to have an eye-strain. I'd appreciate some comments!
     
  36. 10e

    10e 2[H]4U

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    Thanks a lot for that ToastyX,

    It's too bad the poor gamma settings/black crush and poor dark-to-dark smearing exist, otherwise this would be a great choice for a multi-input screen. I don't understand why Samsung messed with that considering the excellent black level this screen achieves. It's as good as my brother-in-law's Samsung A750 series TV (0.05 cdm/2 with 140 cdm/2 white brightness). Also weird that they used digital darkening below 15 brightnes....

    Is it possible that using a PS3 with it, and not using full range HDMI would "fix" the loss of shadow details (albeit at the cost of black level)?

    Lostman

    Contrary to popular belief, black crush is not necessarily an S-PVA characteristic, and I haven't seen anything specifically mentioned about the Dell 2408WFP concerning this. S-PVAs suffer a "washout" effect off-angle where dark details lighten up when viewed from the side, but viewed dead on they don't.

    I know my Dell 2709W doesn't have a black crush issue at all, but the typical horizontal gamma shift is there, albeit noticeably less than past PVA/S-PVA screens I've seen, but not nearly as consistent as IPS screens.
     
  37. psyside

    psyside 2[H]4U

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    Another good review in few hours,nice good job ;)
     
  38. perra

    perra n00bie

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    Thx ToastyX, so sad I was like Lostman hoping this would the monitor to use until OLED.....
    How can Samsung do such a bad job..? Ghosting like really old screens and black crush so bad calibrated...?

    Was there any noise from the monitor when lowered the brightness..?
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2009
  39. Lostman

    Lostman [H]Lite

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    Thanks 10e; I'm still thinking about getting a PVA, with IPS being rare and expensive. I thought about Eizo S2242W, but there is not a single review in sight and price is rather high. 2408WFP looks good, especially on sale. I guess I'll give it a go and hope it won't burn my eyes ;-)
     
  40. fss69

    fss69 Gawd

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    Wow, I'm surprised to see ghosting this bad on a modern lcd you can buy on the market today.