RTX 3xxx performance speculation

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I read on some forum that availabilty of RTX 3090 will be so low ,that chances i will get new card is new year. Trust that opinion?
 
Bees said:
Waiting for Big Navi to come is up to whether you need to upgrade now or can wait several months for a product and stock to materialize. A 3070 with claimed performance will be great, it's up to AMD to present something which will make nvidia's products easier to pass on. Right now though? Sure is a lot of silence going around on team red...
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Part of the reason we don't see Big Navi leaks, is because AMD doesn't work with AIBs until just about he reveal. According to Igor, they are only getting BOM now, and he expect there will be NO Big Navi AIB cards this year. Or maybe a couple of rush jobs in time for Xmas.

So, it back to AMD reference cooler for anyone that Wants Big Navi this year, and AMD doesn't exactly have a history good references cooler design.
 
mgty23 said:
I read on some forum that availabilty of RTX 3090 will be so low ,that chances i will get new card is new year. Trust that opinion?
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Aren't you the same guy or gal that asked if thr 12 pin would be safe?

I heard that Big Navi will start on fire and maybe burn your house down. Not going to say where, but I just heard it.

Stop spreading fud for something g that didn't even come out yet.
 
Snowdog said:
Part of the reason we don't see Big Navi leaks, is because AMD doesn't work with AIBs until just about he reveal. According to Igor, they are only getting BOM now, and he expect there will be NO Big Navi AIB cards this year. Or maybe a couple of rush jobs in time for Xmas.

So, it back to AMD reference cooler for anyone that Wants Big Navi this year, and AMD doesn't exactly have a history good references cooler design.
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Dis-information. FUD. Not lies, but not the whole story.
 
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Edit:

Here is the Video (German):


Here is translation of the section covering the AMD AIB situation:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/imk1jr/igorslab_big_navi_between_3070_and_3080_with_275w/
The AIB part starts at 15:10min He says the AIBs do not yet have a bill of material for the Big Navi cards. It takes roughly 3 month from the bill of material to product on the shelfs so every Big Navi card this year will come directly from AMD. He says if there somehow will be AIB cards this year then these will be rush jobs and come around christmas.
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The AIB part starts at 15:10min He says the AIBs do not yet have a bill of material for the Big Navi cards. It takes roughly 3 month from the bill of material to product on the shelfs so every Big Navi card this year will come directly from AMD. He says if there somehow will be AIB cards this year then these will be rush jobs and come around christmas.
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This is a much more complete statement. However I would suggest "rush jobs" is not correct.
 
All he is suggesting, is similar to what we see at most AMD launches.

You only get AMD reference designs initially, and a significant wait to get AIB designs. Though he does seem to suggest that wait would be longer this time.
 
I would think that you could just look at aib cooler design and that by and large they don't varry much generation to generation. They largely just change some of the mounting and design to match the new pcb apart from some halo products.

How hard do people think it is to adapt say, the msi trio from the 1080, to the 2080, and now to the 3080?
 
Aireoth said:
I would think that you could just look at aib cooler design and that by and large they don't varry much generation to generation. They largely just change some of the mounting and design to match the new pcb apart from some halo products.

How hard do people think it is to adapt say, the msi trio from the 1080, to the 2080, and now to the 3080?
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Yet, how long did we wait for AIB 5700XT? Those are bog standard, GPU and VRAM, relatively moderate power GPUs.

This time, they might be HBM, and 300W parts, which will probably take a bit more engineering precision for the cooler over the HBM, and handling the higher power load.
 
Snowdog said:
Yet, how long did we wait for AIB 5700XT? Those are bog standard, GPU and VRAM, relatively moderate power GPUs.

This time, they might be HBM, and 300W parts, which will probably take a bit more engineering precision for the cooler over the HBM, and handling the higher power load.
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Coolers have been being worked on by AIBs for quite a while already.
 
Snowdog said:
Yet, how long did we wait for AIB 5700XT? Those are bog standard, GPU and VRAM, relatively moderate power GPUs.

This time, they might be HBM, and 300W parts, which will probably take a bit more engineering precision for the cooler over the HBM, and handling the higher power load.
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All your posts make you sound like a salesman for nVidia.

I'm sure it'll be fine, some products not withstanding, like hydrocooled 3090's will be sometime 6-9 months late.
 
Aireoth said:
All your posts make you sound like a salesman for nVidia.

I'm sure it'll be fine, some products not withstanding, like hydrocooled 3090's will be sometime 6-9 months late.
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I understand how facts can appear biased, to the biased.

This is historically how it has played out in recent history for AMD.

All the initial card sales have been AMD reference designs. That is just a fact.

In the case of both Vega, and Navi (still fresh in my memory), AMD coolers were undesirable, and you had to wait a month or more to get a better AIB design. With lots of people urging that.

The speculative part about why this happens. A reasonable hypothesis is AMD doesn't let AIBs in early to avoid leaks.

NVidia OTOH seems to leak info like a sieve, but it has AIB designs much earlier.

Time will tell if Igor called it correctly. But given AMD recent history, and the lack of AIB leaks, it seems the Vega and Navi board pattern will repeat again.
 
Snowdog said:
I understand how facts can appear biased, to the biased.

This is historically how it has played out in recent history for AMD.

All the initial card sales have been AMD reference designs. That is just a fact.

In the case of both Vega, and Navi (still fresh in my memory), AMD coolers were undesirable, and you had to wait a month or more to get a better AIB design. With lots of people urging that.

The speculative part about why this happens. A reasonable hypothesis is AMD doesn't let AIBs in early to avoid leaks.

NVidia OTOH seems to leak info like a sieve, but it has AIB designs much earlier.

Time will tell if Igor called it correctly. But given AMD recent history, and the lack of AIB leaks, it seems the Vega and Navi board pattern will repeat again.
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You whole defense of the FE cooler post comes to mind, no fact, no tests, just bias speculation in favor of nVidia and some very dubious understanding of thermodynamics and airflow.

I am going off of facts, nVidia launched the 2000 series at an unheard of price point. Now they are rolling all of that back, and it isn't out of the goodness of their little hearts, its out of competition.

AMD has a vested interest in achieving, they've recently done so in the cpu market, Lisa Su seems incredibly competent, and now their Navi refinement comes. I'm no amd fan, their driver issues drove me nuts on the HD5900, but all indications from nVidia is that Navi 2 is a competitor, not just a card that only tops nVidia's last gen.
 
Aireoth said:
You whole defense of the FE cooler post comes to mind, no fact, no tests, just bias speculation in favor of nVidia and some very dubious understanding of thermodynamics and airflow.
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I am biased in favor of good engineering. I don't care who is doing it. It's the knee jerk, "intuitive" response to the airflow diagram thinking it's going to overheat the CPU, that shows dubious understand of thermodynamics.

That "intuition" about airflow heating the CPU more, would apply if you were running that cooler on an open air bench, or if you are only concerned about the short time before you heat up the case.

But I was very clear. I am talking about the situation in a normal Tower case with the exhaust right behind the CPU cooler, and my concern is about after you heat up the case.

In this situation you are pretty much going to exhaust the same amount of heat out this one location anyway, doing similar heating to the CPU.

The worse thing you can do for cooling in a box like PC case is slow/trap air and heat it more, that just raise temperatures everywhere. You want easy fast moving unobstructed airflow. That is what this design fosters.

Trapping/Delaying heat longer in the lower half of the case longer only short term delays it getting to the CPU, and raises temperatures of the whole box higher while it heat soaks. Moving it faster to the top section is ultimately neutral for the CPU, and clearly beneficial for the GPU.

So, long term their design would essentially be neutral to the CPU (and Win for the GPU), in these conditions, if that was all it did.

But because one of the GPU fans acts as a blower, a significant portion of GPU heat will exit case directly through the slots. This will shift the balance, moving the design from neutral to the CPU, to favorable to the CPU. So it becomes Win-Win.

Before this I often wondered why no one did a half blower design, to get some of the advantage of blower and some of the open air coolers.

Sorry if NVidia involvement in this design blinds you to the benefits.
 
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Are you qualified to understand engineering, because I highly doubt it. speculation, in favor of nVidia, with no real word data, thats why your post is junk.

Could it work? maybe, but you are completely ignoring the downside to say 'but more air ejected from case!' which is not the case if you have properly designed your cases airflow anyway. My msi trio doesn't leave air recitculating in the case to increase ambient temp, and blowing hot air directly over the cpu and its cooler is very, very likey to have an impact on cpu temp and effeciency.

I get it, your a fan, reality bends to your will and all else is blind (you drink the koolaid and marketing slides). I for one will be wise and a skeptic until real word data is out.
 
Aireoth said:
Are you qualified to understand engineering, because I highly doubt it. speculation, in favor of nVidia, with no real word data, thats why your post is junk.

Could it work? maybe, but you are completely ignoring the downside to say 'but more air ejected from case!' which is not the case if you have properly designed your cases airflow anyway. My msi trio doesn't leave air recitculating in the case to increase ambient temp, and blowing hot air directly over the cpu and its cooler is very, very likey to have an impact on cpu temp and effeciency.

I get it, your a fan, reality bends to your will and all else is blind (you drink the koolaid and marketing slides). I for one will be wise and a skeptic until real word data is out.
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*raises hand* I am an engineer and agree with snowdog AMD has a terrible history with stock cooler designs. 290x turbine, Fury X pump failures (that they tried to cover up), the horrid Radeon VII design, ect. They absolutely mess up high end card cooling.

Maybe they’ll get it right this time, but wouldn’t surprise me at all if they mauled it.

nVidia’s FE design is pure sex. Half the heat exiting the case and the other half aimed at the exhaust? Given they are using quite large fans I am not worried about CPU temps (which generally aren’t even close to max in real world gaming) or noise. Overall it’s way better than the typical AIB design that recirculates air in the case.
 
Dayaks said:
nVidia’s FE design is pure sex. Half the heat exiting the case and the other half aimed at the exhaust? Given they are using quite large fans I am not worried about CPU temps (which generally aren’t even close to max in real world gaming) or noise. Overall it’s way better than the typical AIB design that recirculates air in the case.
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It's too bad we can't discuss the merits of this design without people assuming you are biased, or showing their own biases.

I do think there is one dubious feature on the FE cooler design.

The fan on the back. I see no functional reason that this couldn't be push fan on the front with the exact same result. I have seen test results on flow through coolers, push on the front, or pull on the back has no significant difference.

I think it's there for the marketing splash. The fan on the back, is an attention grabber. Put the fan on the front, and it looks like a normal cooler.

Thoughts?
 
Snowdog said:
I think it's there for the marketing splash. The fan on the back, is an attention grabber. Put the fan on the front, and it looks like a normal cooler.

Thoughts?
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Cheaper heatsink design with fan on the back for the same performance.
 
Meeho said:
Cheaper heatsink design with fan on the back for the same performance.
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How does the fan on the back make it cheaper?

AFAICT, the 3070 FE cooler is a flow through design as well, but with the fan on the front, and presumably it's the cheapest cooler of the FE line shown so far.
 
Snowdog said:
How does the fan on the back make it cheaper?

AFAICT, the 3070 FE cooler is a flow through design as well, but with the fan on the front, and presumably it's the cheapest cooler of the FE line shown so far.
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g9A8EHQLvQHUDndG6v4ScX-1024-80.jpg.webp



It seems like fan in front would require additional heatpipe bends and a stepped heatsink to keep the same surface area, instead of a solid straight "brick". Not sure if the added complexity reflects on price, but this would be my first guess. Also, airflow direction control (more air towards the CPU area) could be better this way.
 
Meeho said:
g9A8EHQLvQHUDndG6v4ScX-1024-80.jpg.webp



It seems like fan in front would require additional heatpipe bends and a stepped heatsink, instead of a solid straight "brick". Not sure if the added complexity reflects on price, but this would be my first guess. Also, airflow direction control could be better this way
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It seems more likely with the fan in front, they would be flatter than they are on the new FE, as front fan flow through, is just like all the conventional designs with the fans in the front.

Instead for this new FE design, they had to be bent out from the board to make space for the back fan.

In fact there are few of the AIB models with conventional open air heat sinks that are flow though, and all they have to do, is remove back plate in that area, and use a short PCB, on an otherwise conventional design. Like Sapphire has been doing for years:
PNIzFkJ.jpg

You are helping to make the case that it's more expensive to put the fan in the back.
 
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Snowdog said:
It seems more likely with the fan in front, they would be flatter than they are on the new FE, as front fan flow through, is just like all the conventional designs with the fans in the front.

Instead for this new FE design, they had to be bent out from the board to make space for the back fan.

In fact there are few of the AIB models with conventional open air heat sinks that are flow though, and all they have to do, is remove back plate in that area, and use a short PCB, on an otherwise conventional design. Like Sapphire has been doing for years:
View attachment 276560

You are helping to make the case that it's more expensive to put the fan in the back.
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We would have to see both heatsinks from the side to draw conclusions. 3080's heatpipes bend before the fan for the PCB components already (but again for the fan so you're right there), and the heatsink fins don't have to be be indented in the front and extended to the rear to keep the same surface area.
 
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FrgMstr said:
Most expensive cooler ever produced by nvidia for production cards.
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I get that, no need to make it needlessly more expensive though. Again, maybe it would be a meaningless price difference, which would leave either airflow reasons or marketing cool factor.
 
Gideon said:
I have a feeling these coolers became necessary once they got a idea of where RDNA2 was going to land. Their wattage's scream of a process being pushed to the limit and I have a feeling these will not overclock well.
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nV's probably never been so far ahead. Judging by the thought and design that's been put in that cooler I seriously doubt it was something decided far in developement (ie changed in reaction Big Navi).
I want AMD to succeed as much as the next guy, and they did pull Ryzen out of their hat. They might do it again. I just believe a lot of people are going to be disappointed (those expecting 3080 levels of performance (or even 3090 LOL)).

3070 should have some fierce competition though.
 
Gideon said:
I have a feeling these coolers became necessary once they got a idea of where RDNA2 was going to land. Their wattage's scream of a process being pushed to the limit and I have a feeling these will not overclock well.
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Not really. Huge package wattages, past experience for the FX coolers, and Nvidia simply has to have FE stand out.
 
Gideon said:
I have a feeling these coolers became necessary once they got a idea of where RDNA2 was going to land. Their wattage's scream of a process being pushed to the limit and I have a feeling these will not overclock well.
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We have no idea of the overclocking, so not sure what your feeling on an unreleased/untested card is all about. Based on how they are scaling with wattage, i don't see how they wouldn't be good overclockers, plus I saw a leaked slide/vid cap that showed the 3080fe running at 19xx mhz in game. Last gen we were mostly limited by the caps imposed by Nvidia themselves, but look at the presentation for the 2080 release, we have an fe card that could oc pretty well for a launch item. With the massive throughput of all these double cuda cores, even a little overclocking should yield pretty substantial results. Regardless, soon we will all get to see it first hand if lucky enough to score on launch day.
 
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