RTX 3xxx performance speculation

Viper87227

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Nvidia announced today that they are holding off on their product reveal for GTC. While we don't actually know if there was going to be the 3080 announcement... This removes any chance of it. Bummer.
 

Snowdog

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Nvidia doesn't usually announce gaming cards at GTC. Wait for Gamescom in summer.
They might have been announcing some pro parts, that reveal the chips that will also be used in the consumer parts. Just like RTX pro parts were shown first. It would give us something to work from on the NVidia side. We have nothing at all. We don't know the process, the fab, the architecture, nothing....

At least on the AMD side you can see the XBSX Navi GPU RT HW and ~RTX 2080 performance, so you can expect AMD to go well beyond that for big Navi. The 80 CU rumors now have more credibility.
 

Viper87227

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They might have been announcing some pro parts, that reveal the chips that will also be used in the consumer parts. Just like RTX pro parts were shown first. It would give us something to work from on the NVidia side. We have nothing at all. We don't know the process, the fab, the architecture, nothing....

At least on the AMD side you can see the XBSX Navi GPU RT HW and ~RTX 2080 performance, so you can expect AMD to go well beyond that for big Navi. The 80 CU rumors now have more credibility.
I wonder if this means a delay across all Ampere products. If we end up with the global economic recession that many are expecting, seems like a good time to keep your existing product lines on the market and save your new items for when the economy recovers. I think it's going to be a lot longer than anticipated before we see new things from Nvidia.
 

Factum

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This video lifts the veil a bit about the performance of the new Xbox:
They talk about 1080p/30-60FPS for the new Xbox in DXR Minecraft

Compare that to Microsoft target of 1080p/60FPS for DXR Minecraft on a RTX 2060:
https://www.pcgamesn.com/minecraft/rtx-system-requirements

So we can deduce that the new Xbox will be below a RTX 2060 in performance in regards to Raytracing

That should keep peoples expectations in check...
 

Dayaks

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This video lifts the veil a bit about the performance of the new Xbox:
They talk about 1080p/30-60FPS for the new Xbox in DXR Minecraft

Compare that to Microsoft target of 1080p/60FPS for DXR Minecraft on a RTX 2060:
https://www.pcgamesn.com/minecraft/rtx-system-requirements

So we can deduce that the new Xbox will be below a RTX 2060 in performance in regards to Raytracing

That should keep peoples expectations in check...
Or it’s just bad at DXR.
 

Marees

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This video lifts the veil a bit about the performance of the new Xbox:
They talk about 1080p/30-60FPS for the new Xbox in DXR Minecraft

Compare that to Microsoft target of 1080p/60FPS for DXR Minecraft on a RTX 2060:
https://www.pcgamesn.com/minecraft/rtx-system-requirements

So we can deduce that the new Xbox will be below a RTX 2060 in performance in regards to Raytracing

That should keep peoples expectations in check...
The two Ray Tracing demos may not be comparable on an apples-to-apples basis

https://www.pcgamer.com/there-are-n...emos-but-no-word-on-when-it-will-be-playable/
 

Snowdog

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I don't think we can jump to conclusions on RT performance of RDNA 2, based solely on that video.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if NVidia maintained an edge in current titles. As the first mover, they will have had more input into APIs, and optimizations will automatically favor their architecture.

I also wouldn't be surprised if in a year from now when testing DXR/Vulkan RT games, that the results swing back and forth, some favoring NVidia, some favoring AMD at least on RTX 2000 HW. While AMD is late to the party, they will obviously have been able to benchmark against RTX 2000 and should have built HW capable of delivering similar RT performance, at least if the software was not NVidia optimized as all the original titles will be.

At least the anti-RT rhetoric should tone down, since it will be universal going forward.
 

reaper12

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Or it’s just bad at DXR.
Or that it's an unfinished game on a system that's still 8 months from release.

Nothing can be deduced about the final performance of Ray Tracing on consoles based on that video.

The one thing that caught my eye was the at end of the article. The guy said it looked better than the Minecraft demo using RTX.
 

Armenius

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Or that it's an unfinished game on a system that's still 8 months from release.

Nothing can be deduced about the final performance of Ray Tracing on consoles based on that video.

The one thing that caught my eye was the at end of the article. The guy said it looked better than the Minecraft demo using RTX.
They had Gears 5 running on the Series X at 45-50 FPS with ray tracing at 4K according to Digital Foundry.
 

Snowdog

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They had Gears 5 running on the Series X at 45-50 FPS with ray tracing at 4K according to Digital Foundry.
In Gears, I believe it was using Screen Space based RT like effects, and not actual Ray Tracing, nor RT HW.
 

noko

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Too early to really conclude much of anything, if we get more proper RT games then that will be a huge win going forward. What caught my eye in above article linked was that specific RTX versions which use specific Nvidia features may have to be modified to work with AMD features. Even being DXR does not mean it is universal in other words for ray tracing. I would expect current DXR, good selling titles to be updated as needed. What was missing from the video was any kind of reconstruction technique such as DLSS. Having a 30%-50% performance tap when needed with equivalent IQ gives RT usable legs.
 

IdiotInCharge

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Too early to really conclude much of anything, if we get more proper RT games then that will be a huge win going forward.
Not if, but when ;)
What caught my eye in above article linked was that specific RTX versions which use specific Nvidia features may have to be modified to work with AMD features. Even being DXR does not mean it is universal in other words for ray tracing. I would expect current DXR, good selling titles to be updated as needed.
This remains an open question in my mind. To reference Nvidia's 'Geforce FX' fiasco, ATi built the hardware reference for DX9 which worked only one way, while Nvidia came later with a more complicated solution. Nvidia was at least competitive when developers accounted for their hardware decisions, but if they did it the ATi way, Nvidia GPU performance tanked.

Both approaches were within DX spec.

In this instance, it's really up to AMD to have accounted for current developer targets. Either they're able to run current titles as-is, or they'll be lambasted upon release.

What was missing from the video was any kind of reconstruction technique such as DLSS. Having a 30%-50% performance tap when needed with equivalent IQ gives RT usable legs.
As a bit of a purist, I can't really state how much I dislike the overall idea of DLSS. In my mind, it's half-assing.

But on the other hand, looking forward, it's hard to deny that the output resolution of renders needs an effective and seamless means of being decoupled from displays. Whether on phones or on TVs or VR headsets or high-resolution monitors, with the advent of ray tracing we should expect hardware to fall short of display technologies. Developing smart methods of connecting the two while retaining essential detail and without introducing lag does seem prudent.

I do hope that Nvidia, AMD, Intel etc. continue to work on similar solutions. We're going to need them!
 

reaper12

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What caught my eye in above article linked was that specific RTX versions which use specific Nvidia features may have to be modified to work with AMD features. Even being DXR does not mean it is universal in other words for ray tracing.
I think the Article doesn't explain it very well or the author doesn't understand what he is talking about.

DXR is universal but the onus is on the Graphic card vendor to provide the hardware and software fallback layer for DXR to use.

There is nothing on the RTX side which has to be modified to work with AMD cards.

AMD will have their own suite of Libraries that DXR will use when it detects an AMD card.

I would expect current DXR, good selling titles to be updated as needed.
Yes of course, but how is that any different from what's happening now? Both Nvidia and AMD have driver updates for specific games with boosts and bug fixes.
 

Snowdog

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What caught my eye in above article linked was that specific RTX versions which use specific Nvidia features may have to be modified to work with AMD features. Even being DXR does not mean it is universal in other words for ray tracing. I would expect current DXR, good selling titles to be updated as needed.
This may be a case of the original RTX Minecraft being a NVidia demo, they did not give the code for it without strings attached. Strings being, no you can't use it as a demo for our competitors product in a console.

That being said, I have been saying all along, that NVidia is in the RT drivers seat. The RT landscape is being shaped around it's products that actually exist, and will be optimized for that HW, even the APIs. So the games that were designed when only NVidia products existed will likely be poorly optimized for AMDs solution. Since there are few RT games out there, AMD will probably work to get some AMD optimizations before RDNA2 card launch.
 

Nebell

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I'm still on my 1080Ti. Damn best card ever :)
According to the rumors, my prediction of 40-50% increase in the first post might have been just spot on.
That would put 3080Ti about 60-80% faster than 1080Ti + DLSS. Finally a worthy upgrade. And it's ok, I can wait until next year.
 

gigatexal

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I have no idea -- it'll probably be faster but also more expensive. The 2080TI doesn't need to be 1200 but it was because AMD had no real halo cards to compete and ray tracing was supposed to be amaze-balls (it's gotten better over time but at launch iirc it was a huge perf hinderance) but with RDNA2 perhaps AMD will be > 80% of NV and the consumer can win.
 

gigatexal

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I'm still on my 1080Ti. Damn best card ever :)
According to the rumors, my prediction of 40-50% increase in the first post might have been just spot on.
That would put 3080Ti about 60-80% faster than 1080Ti + DLSS. Finally a worthy upgrade. And it's ok, I can wait until next year.
I wonder what that will do to 2080TI prices -- I hope to scoop one up for 50% of retail launch price.
 

reaper12

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This may be a case of the original RTX Minecraft being a NVidia demo, they did not give the code for it without strings attached. Strings being, no you can't use it as a demo for our competitors product in a console.
No, You are talking exactly like those guys that think Ray Tracing is Nvidia only. It's not that complicated. The first Minecraft demo was done on a PC using DXR callling in Nvdiia's Ray Tracing Solution. The second minecraft demo was done on the console version of DXR calling in AMD's Ray Tracing solution.

That being said, I have been saying all along, that NVidia is in the RT drivers seat. The RT landscape is being shaped around it's products that actually exist, and will be optimized for that HW, even the APIs. So the games that were designed when only NVidia products existed will likely be poorly optimized for AMDs solution. Since there are few RT games out there, AMD will probably work to get some AMD optimizations before RDNA2 card launch.
DXR is not RTX. The RT landscape is been shaped around DXR and Vulkan, which are both open solutions. The games that are out there were designed using DXR and Vulkan. Will there be optimizations to be done per game? of course, but that's no different to what's happening now.

The advantage that Nvidia has, is the same advantage they have had for the last few years, their cards are just better and more powerful than AMD's.
 

Dayaks

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I'm still on my 1080Ti. Damn best card ever :)
According to the rumors, my prediction of 40-50% increase in the first post might have been just spot on.
That would put 3080Ti about 60-80% faster than 1080Ti + DLSS. Finally a worthy upgrade. And it's ok, I can wait until next year.
1.25*1.4 = 1.75
1.45*1.5 = 2.175

It’d be 75% to 117.5% faster than a 1080ti based on your 40-50% ;). Even better! Heh

Like the 2080ti, a lot will probably depend if you’re hitting CPU bottlenecks. It’s generally 25% for high Hz and 40-45% for 60Hz for the 1080ti -> 2080ti improvement.
 

Snowdog

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No, You are talking exactly like those guys that think Ray Tracing is Nvidia only. It's not that complicated. The first Minecraft demo was done on a PC using DXR callling in Nvdiia's Ray Tracing Solution. The second minecraft demo was done on the console version of DXR calling in AMD's Ray Tracing solution.



DXR is not RTX. The RT landscape is been shaped around DXR and Vulkan, which are both open solutions. The games that are out there were designed using DXR and Vulkan. Will there be optimizations to be done per game? of course, but that's no different to what's happening now.

The advantage that Nvidia has, is the same advantage they have had for the last few years, their cards are just better and more powerful than AMD's.
You seem to be missing your own point.

A DXR implementation of Minecraft, shouldn't need a second implementation. You should just be able to reuse the first one.

So why have a new second implementation?
 

Factum

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You seem to be missing your own point.

A DXR implementation of Minecraft, shouldn't need a second implementation. You should just be able to reuse the first one.

So why have a new second implementation?
AMD/Console Lite RT'ish? ;p
 

Nebell

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I wonder what that will do to 2080TI prices -- I hope to scoop one up for 50% of retail launch price.
I don't think 3080Ti will sell for 2080Ti price.
I think the price for it will be around $1000. Not $1400 (2080Ti price here in Sweden).
AMD will put some pressure on Nvidia, but I think real pressure to lower the price will come from next gen consoles.
 

gigatexal

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I don't think 3080Ti will sell for 2080Ti price.
I think the price for it will be around $1000. Not $1400 (2080Ti price here in Sweden).
AMD will put some pressure on Nvidia, but I think real pressure to lower the price will come from next gen consoles.
I hope so as I have to pay EU premiums, too, but 1k for a GPU is still ridiculous imo

Man it sure would be nice to have a customs union between the US and the EU for tech stuff so but that's a whole different thread and rant against VAT

Here's to hoping RDNA2 for us DIY kids is compelling against the 3XXX Nvidia line if nothing else but to keep prices competitive
 

reaper12

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You seem to be missing your own point.

A DXR implementation of Minecraft, shouldn't need a second implementation. You should just be able to reuse the first one.

So why have a new second implementation?
It's a console version of the game using console hardware/software.
 

Factum

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It's a console version of the game using console hardware/software.
Hardware = AMD RDNA2 SKU (The same architechture is coming to PC...so calling it "console hardware" is kinda misleading)
Software = Direct 12 Ultimate (The API is now IDENTICAL between Xbox and Windows 10....so calling it "console software" is misleading...at best.)

This indicates for me that AMD it not up to par with NVIDIA in DXR....
 

Snowdog

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It's a console version of the game using console hardware/software.
A console that is a basically a standard x86 PC, running a version of Windows DX12 and DXR.

Edit: not fully awake yet. Missed that Factum already addressed this.
 
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imsirovic5

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Does anyone think there is a chance they introduce 3080ti first followed by rest of the lineup? Really do not want to wait until 2021 to replace my 1080ti :(
 

gigatexal

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Does anyone think there is a chance they introduce 3080ti first followed by rest of the lineup? Really do not want to wait until 2021 to replace my 1080ti :(
Nah. I think they continue with the 3080 and then wait to see what RDNA2 does and then counter with the halo card
 

IdiotInCharge

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Does anyone think there is a chance they introduce 3080ti first followed by rest of the lineup? Really do not want to wait until 2021 to replace my 1080ti :(
Nvidia has lead with big-chips plenty of times, and there's plenty of reasons to support them going either way this time.

I'll give one of each.

Big reason for: get top-end upgrader revenue (those that buy top end every generation), as well as convince upgraders that skipped the 2000-series, especially those of us with 1080Ti's

Big reason against: it'll be the first release for them on TSMC 7nm, so it's a bit risky

but I think real pressure to lower the price will come from next gen consoles.
Nvidia would likely have a higher margin / more profit if they kept the price the same, however, with consoles making the case for RT to the masses, pricing more accessibly means shipping significantly more units. The case for them backing off on pricing just a bit seems to carry merit here.
 

5150Joker

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Does anyone think there is a chance they introduce 3080ti first followed by rest of the lineup? Really do not want to wait until 2021 to replace my 1080ti :(
With coronavirus its almost guaranteed you won't see 3080 ti till 2021.
 

Snowdog

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With coronavirus its almost guaranteed you won't see 3080 ti till 2021.
Depends how much lag CV19 itself causes and whether NVidia is launching their big die first as a Titan (Like Pascal and many previous generations), or it will launch first as a 3080ti (like Turing).

If they go back to the old pattern. We will see a Titan first and 3080Ti Months later. New pattern a 3080Ti will be among the first Amperes launching.
 

DooKey

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Depends how much lag CV19 itself causes and whether NVidia is launching their big die first as a Titan (Like Pascal and many previous generations), or it will launch first as a 3080ti (like Turing).

If they go back to the old pattern. We will see a Titan first and 3080Ti Months later. New pattern a 3080Ti will be among the first Amperes launching.
I'm hoping for the latter. Give me my new Ti!
 

Armenius

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We'll see. Both Sony and Microsoft said they're not delaying the launch of their new consoles. TSMC still has its foundries open and running at this time.
 

whateverer

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Yeah, after AMD's investors day on the fifth of march, they guaranteed a release in this year. That's not horseshit, that's normal operating procedures. As long as TSMC doesn't get hit hard by Covid 19, they will be fine.

https://www.patentlyapple.com/paten...ction-of-5nm-processors-remains-on-track.html

They are already planning on shipping Apple's 5nm phone chip starting next month. They have only had a single reported case of Corona. To think that a well-run country like Taiwan would look at China's obvious fuckups with anything less than "we can do much better" attitude is pure idiocy.

They build finished products in China, but those can be shifted elsewhere. You can't move TSMC chip production, so you have to take a smart approach to prevention. It will lower their margins enforcing 2 week isolation for any company travelers, but it's worth it to keep the lines up and running.
 
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Armenius

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Yeah, after AMD's investors day on the fifth of march, they guaranteed a release in this year. That's not horseshit, that's normal operating procedures. As long as TSMC doesn't get hit hard by Covid 19, they will be fine.

https://www.patentlyapple.com/paten...ction-of-5nm-processors-remains-on-track.html

They are already planning on shipping Apple's 5nm phone chip starting next month. They have only had a single reported case of Corona. To think that a well-run country like Taiwan would look at China's obvious fuckups with anything less than "we can do much better" attitude is pure idiocy.

They build finished products in China, but those can be shifted elsewhere. You can't move TSMC chip production, so you have to take a smart approach to prevention. It will lower their margins enforcing 2 week isolation for any company travelers, but it's worth it to keep the lines up and running.
There was a report I saw a few days ago saying one worker at TSMC tested positive and that their response was to take extra strict precautionary measures to ensure it won't spread far. I haven't heard anything negative about TSMC's response, so I guess that's a good thing.
 
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