Replacing my 50" Samsung Plasma with a 65-75" TV. I'm lost.

Discussion in 'Displays' started by DoubleTap, Mar 13, 2019.

  1. DoubleTap

    DoubleTap [H]ard|Gawd

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    I bought one of the last gen Samsung 50/51" Plasma TVs back in 2010. It's been great and we love the picture, but for the last 2 years, it's been slowly showing this pink/purple patch in the top/center of the screen. I can probably have it repaird and plan to keep it.

    But I have no idea what TV to get.

    1. Would like good contrast.
    2. Would like it to be a good gaming platform (low latency)
    3. Will use external video sources and audio.
    4. I kind of like the Samsung flush/flat mount TVs.
    5. OLED seems to spendy and burn-iny for us (change my mind)
    6. Would prefer something less reflection sensitive than the glass front of my plasma

    My main issue is that I don't know what I'm getting for my money. They sell 65" TVs for $498 at Walmart now.

    Budget:
    $900-1200 (could stretch higher, prefer not to) and while I'd like a 75, my wife would probably prefer a 65

    Usage:
    70% is TV viewing (streaming)
    25% is gaming (XB1/Switch/??)
    5% is movie watching (streaming, but I may buy more Blu-Rays)
     
  2. cybereality

    cybereality [H]ardness Supreme

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  3. sharknice

    sharknice [H]ard|Gawd

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    Oled is not burn-iny, especially if you're coming from a plasma.
    But at that budget you aren't going to get one. 65" are 2500 on sale
     
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  4. DoubleTap

    DoubleTap [H]ard|Gawd

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  5. cybereality

    cybereality [H]ardness Supreme

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    You can read the reviews here, it might help your decision.

    https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/nu8000
    https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/nu7100

    Basically the NU8000 supports higher refresh rates at lower resolution (e.g. 1440p @ 120Hz) as well as FreeSync. The 7000 model does not. I think the HDR picture is also better on the 8000.

    I haven't used either display, so I'm just going on what I read online. The one I'm using is the 55" Q7F, which is great, but it was much more expensive.
     
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  6. kasakka

    kasakka [H]ard|Gawd

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    Image quality is nice on the Samsungs but the smart TV functionality is a bag of rubbish if that matters. I got tired of the constantly crashing apps or having them stuck in states that required resetting the Smart Hub software which logs you out of all streaming services. Typing anything into search boxes is also awkward on the remote and support for peripherals is a veritable mess where some apps support a keyboard and others don't. Chromecast Ultra has worked far better for me.

    I would look for last years LG OLEDs as they can be had for pretty good prices.
     
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  7. Armenius

    Armenius I Drive Myself to the [H]ospital

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    An OLED would be the only direct replacement to a plasma. The 2019 LG models are coming out soon, so you may be able to find some good deals on the 2018 models if you're patient. I picked up a 55" C8 last month for $1400. As mentioned earlier, there is far less burn-in risk with an OLED than there was with a plasma. Just don't keep it on CNN all day and use a screensaver if you connect a PC or laptop to it.
    The 8000 has better peak brightness, more dimming zones, better color reproduction, and better response time as well. The input lag at 4K on the 7100 is atrocious compared to the 8000.
     
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  8. dvsman

    dvsman 2[H]4U

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    I've had good luck with the higher tier Vizio TVs before I switched to my LG OLED. The new Smart TVs are really convenient with built in apps and chromecast. Plus if you have a Google Home some of the stuff you can control using your voice, which is always cool to show off to your non-geek friends and family.
     
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  9. MaZa

    MaZa 2[H]4U

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    Burn-in on LG OLED is not any worse than Plasma really. Do not be fooled by smartphone AMOLEDs which burn in easily. They work in different principle than Oleds used in LG TV's. LG Oled can burn-in but it requires some abuse which I am sure you have learned to avoid with your Plasma.
     
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  10. DoubleTap

    DoubleTap [H]ard|Gawd

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    Thanks. My expectation is that most TVs with built in apps are going to be terrible. We use a Roku 3 right now - I might get a new external Roku and either a Fire TV or NV Shield for some flexibility.

    I'm continually annoyed and surprised at how many platforms and stations seem oblivious to their logos being a burn in risk - I get that CNN might like to have their logo etched into your TV, but I think Roku and such could do a better job...

    Leaning toward a 65" OLED - if I can get it for close to 1500 or so...
     
  11. Armenius

    Armenius I Drive Myself to the [H]ospital

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    Yes, I forgot about the P-series Quantum. If you can find it, this would be an excellent TV to get. It's a 65" for around $1500 and it has one of the best HDR FALDs in the business right now. B&H has it in stock right now for $1530. Or you can buy it direct from Vizio.

    https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1439029-REG/vizio_pq65_f1_p_series_quantum_65_class.html
    https://www.vizio.com/pq65f1.html
    https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/vizio/p-series-quantum

    Note that the 2019 version is supposedly being downgraded to make room for the Quantum X at the top-of-the-line. The 2018 model can hit 2000 nits peak brightness, but they said the 2019 model will only hit 1000 nits. The Quantum X coming out this year is said to hit 2900 nits with 480 zones.
     
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  12. DoubleTap

    DoubleTap [H]ard|Gawd

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    Thanks for the heads up. This, a good sammy and an OLED are the leading candidates...
     
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  13. QuiteSufficient

    QuiteSufficient Sufficiently [H]ard

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    I currently own in different rooms in my house Samsung 6000 7000 and 8000s

    The color of the 8000 is better in all ways and the OS loads and runs faster. Quality control is also better.

    I spent about a month researching this in January before buying yet another Samsung and wound up with the 55" NU8000. I came to the conclusion it is very hard to beat for the price.

    The Vizio is attractive but I've had bad long-term success with them in the past.
     
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  14. sharknice

    sharknice [H]ard|Gawd

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    I'm not sure what you do with your Roku, but if you're able to get an LG OLED the built in apps are quite good. The Netflix and Amazon apps are good, and the LG Smart Share works well as long as you have a PC to host the files.
     
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  15. DoubleTap

    DoubleTap [H]ard|Gawd

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    My wife sits where she would be at about a 45 degree angle to the TV. I've heard that the Samsungs don't have great off angle performance but I'm not sure how severe it is.
     
  16. MaZa

    MaZa 2[H]4U

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    That is a problem with all VA panels, nothing to do with Samsung itself. VA panels have good contrast ratio and deepish blacks when viewed straight on but has poor viewing angles on horizontal angle that shifts the gamma towards brighter when you move sideways way from center. IPS panels have good viewing angles in every direction but piss-poor blacks and contrast.

    VA panels are great (especially if combined with FALD backlight) if you can view the picture straight on, but if you cannot then definetly get OLED. I never recommend IPS panels for TV use, contrast and blacks are too important for movies especially if you want to watch the TV in darkened room.
     
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  17. Sancus

    Sancus Gawd

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    Lowest price on 65C8 OLED in recent memory is 1800, 1699 for B8. You have to keep an eye out for these deals but there should be a couple more chances at those prices still this year as the 2019 models haven't rolled out quite yet.
     
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  18. DoubleTap

    DoubleTap [H]ard|Gawd

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    Woa, is the 55" 1099 sometimes? I'd prefer the 65, but for that price, I might settle...
     
  19. Sancus

    Sancus Gawd

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    Yep, the 55B8 has been 1099 a couple of times. Of course, no guarantees this will happen again, B8 sales seem a bit less common than C8 sales, the 55C8 hasn't been that cheap. Also, as always, with deals you have to be patient, keep an eye out, and be ready to buy immediately when they pop up. So there is an inconvenience factor.
     
  20. Meeho

    Meeho [H]ardness Supreme

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    Anything but OLED would be a significant downgrade.
     
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  21. QuiteSufficient

    QuiteSufficient Sufficiently [H]ard

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    If it is a true 45 it should be fine, but for example our family room tv is more like 60-70 degrees viewing from our kitchen table (not its intended purpose) and it's a strain to watch.

    Sitting at a 30-45 degree I once again prefer the 8000 over the 6 and 7s I believe because it is brighter, or at least more consistently bright across the panel, and contrast is better.

    As mentioned an IPS is better for hard viewing angles, but I dont think you will mind it at 45.
     
  22. Burticus

    Burticus 2[H]4U

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    I've seen 75" Samsungs and LGs at Sam's club for a grand. They look pretty good, at least on the 4k demo reel. The brightness and clarity will probably dazzle you into forgetting about the nice plasma black levels. Which to be honest, only matter on super dark content (movies).

    OLED talks a good game but I don't think you can score a 65" oled for 1500. Unless it's older model closeout. Burn-in isn't as huge an issue as people think unless you leave your TV on a PC desktop or on CNN/ESPN all day (corner logos and text crawler sprawl). And there is a difference between burn in and image retention that people can't seem to grasp. Image retention goes away, it's not permanent. And that's mostly what you're dealing with on the big 4k sets, OLED or otherwise.

    RTINGS.com is a fantastic site for honest reviews.
     
  23. Sancus

    Sancus Gawd

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    Only if you watch them under bright flourescent store-like lighting. These cheap edge lit LCDs look poor in normal living room low light, and just disgusting in the dark imo. They also won't correctly display HDR highlights or colors.
     
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  24. Armenius

    Armenius I Drive Myself to the [H]ospital

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    Just be aware that the B8 uses the older α7 processor while the C8 and above has the newer α9. Only major differences between the two is that smart apps run a bit slower on the α7, while the α9 has far better noise reduction and HFR handling making picture quality on those equipped with it slightly better.
     
  25. DoubleTap

    DoubleTap [H]ard|Gawd

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    Newegg has the B8 65" for $1699 - no tax no shipping.

    Expires on Monday which sucks because I have a nice bonus that drops the following Friday.
     
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  26. DoubleTap

    DoubleTap [H]ard|Gawd

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    We went to Bestbuy in person to compare and contrast the different sets.

    1. I thought that the LG B8 55" had a lot of motion smoothness / soap opera look compared to the Samsungs - I tried to get the store guy to turn it off - not sure if this is just a property of OLEDs but I really hate that effect.

    2. My wife was looking at a bunch of the Samsungs and noticed the drop in brightness even when standing in front of set A and looking at set B right next to it.

    3. The most dramatic thing about the OLED was the off angle brightness, but I think I like the (brighter) Samsung picture better.

    4. A lot of the online reviews slam the Samsungs due to their ad insertion. I'm assuming you can avoid that completely by using your own external Roku/FireTV box

    5. I had a hard time telling the Samsung models apart in the store. Maybe it was the demo/content they were using, but I thought the 65" Q6 looked great and it's in my budget. The Samsung SME guy was telling me about all the differences and I'm sure you can notice them, but I think the Q6 would be great.

    6. My wife prefers the OLED 55 because she thinks any 65 will be too big and she likes the viewing angle but she said it's my call (it's a TRAP!)

    7. Q6 Samsung 65 is in the lead for now. Q8 would be preferred, but it's 2200ish.
     
  27. cybereality

    cybereality [H]ardness Supreme

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    Samsung has MotionPlus as well, but you can adjust it or turn it off if you prefer (though having it on will help with judder on 24p content).

    The SmartTV features show suggested movies when you turn the TV on (even if using external devices). It's not a big deal, but you can turn it off (however, then the panel is just blank, it actually looks nicer with the suggestions).

    Samsung TVs get BRIGHT, that is nice, I like bright sets.
     
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  28. elvn

    elvn 2[H]4U

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    OLED avoid most burn-in risk by cutting their brightness down to 600nit with ABL. They also use WRGB pixels with an additional W = white pixel per group to "cheat" higher brightness levels. That means they can't be calibrated accurately past 400nit and they cut their HDR color volume height to 600nit, which is only about +350 nit height over SDR. OLED's black depth is phenomenal though and it's side by side per pixel contrast is amazing. Considering most content is still SDR, and much of HDR content still falls within the SDR range, this makes them appear as a solid option for now as long as you aren't unlucky enough to get burn in. The fact that the manufacturer doesn't even provide a 1 yr burn in warranty is suspect to me. I wouldn't get one expecting high HDR color volume heights considering their ABL vs burn in limitations.

    A bright , high end Q9Fn tier Samsung can do nearly 2000nit HDR color volume height and 19,000:1 contrast ratio but edge and point brightness and contrast side by side will suffer a dim or a bloom offset area even with its 480 zone direct lit LED FALD array. The samsung's current firmware last I checked errs on the side of dimming rather than blooming.

    So you choose one tradeoff or another. ABL color brightness limitation or FALD blooming/dimming "outside of the lines".

    NVsBTV1.png

    Going forward, more material with high color volume heights of HDR 4000 and HDR 10,000 will be available, and more games should support HDR. OLED won't ever be able to show those colors with it's current limitations and likely never will.

    2d color gamut
    VR6gxX2.png

    3d color gamut aka "HDR color volume"

    3r1M8aR.png



    -------------------------------------

    Dual layer lcd

    Dual layer lcd tech might help bridge the gap in 2020+ I'm hoping, until someyear that microled is available to consumers without astronomical pricing.
    Dual layer LCD uses a monochrome LCD layer as a backlight and as a 2nd light filter to give 1000 to 3000nit HDR color volume and inky .0003 black depth.

    https://hardforum.com/threads/dual-layer-lcd-display-info-thread-mono-lcd-as-backlight.1976079/

    --------------------------------------

    For now I'd say pick your poison between OLED and FALD. Just be aware that HDR 400 isn't really going to get you much HDR color heights since it's practically SDR range, and OLED will show some improvement but is safety-capped at 600nit. Anything edge lit won't do a real HDR mplementation either. That and take a look at what HDR 1000, 4000, and 10,000 content is available so far and also consider how long you want to keep your display.

    HDMI 2.1

    Also be aware that HDMI 2.1 will start showing up in TVs and monitors this year, enabling 120hz 4k with 4:4:4 chroma, Variable Refresh Rate (VRR), QFT (quick frame transport for low input lag gaming), QMS (quick media switching w/o being stuck on blank screen), and dynamic HDR among other things.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2019
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  29. XoR_

    XoR_ Gawd

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    Given your wife sits at large angle and is used to plasma's excellent viewing angles where image is the same from any angle getting any LCD at this point would be suicide... for you XD
     
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  30. cybereality

    cybereality [H]ardness Supreme

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    Samsung QLED panels have great viewing angles.

    I just checked, I'm not noticing any problems, even at a 90 degree angle.
     
  31. DoubleTap

    DoubleTap [H]ard|Gawd

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    HDR was always a "nice to have". A nice bright SDR / low end HDR would be fine.

    I've been wanting to upgrade the audio in that room as well, so if I pull back and go with a midrange samsung like the 8000 or Q6, it will be easier to replace the receiver and I think everyone will be fine.
     
  32. sharknice

    sharknice [H]ard|Gawd

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    Do you normally watch during the day or with the lights on? If you have a dark room the oled picture will absolutely destroy any LCD. That's something the stores don't showcase.
     
  33. DoubleTap

    DoubleTap [H]ard|Gawd

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    I don't know what qualifies as light or dark.

    We have blinds on the left side of the living room (relative to the TV) and while they block most light, a little light gets through the slats and you see it on the plasma TV as a reflection.

    We also have kitchen lights behind the viewing area. The ceiling recessed lights are not bad, but the dining room light just glares right in the center of the plasma from where I usually sit (I'm always turning it off, but people are often eating when I have time to watch TV)

    So it's not a dark room per se, but also not really a sun lit room - just a lot of relatively small and annoying sources of reflection.
     
  34. Armenius

    Armenius I Drive Myself to the [H]ospital

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    1. If I remember correctly there are like 4 separate options you need to turn off to completely disable the motion smoothing. The content being shown may have also been smoothed before being processed on the TV, which is not uncommon.
    2. All Samsungs use a VA panel, which suffer from contrast shift on off angles. It makes the image appear darker even from shallow angles. Same panels are as bad as the gamma shift with TN when it comes to viewing angles. The backlighting QLED uses helps to mitigate the issue, but it's still there.
    3. Yes, there should be no visual anomolies with OLED no matter how you view it.
    4. You can keep the TV disconnected from the internet. For what it's worth, my 2017 model Samsung TV is connected to the internet and I have never seen an ad on it. It is a 49" KU6500.
    5. Biggest difference among the Q series is the type of backlighting, otherwise picture quality is pretty consistent between them. The Q6 and Q7 are edge-lit with the same number of zones on each, but with peak brightness on the Q7 being nearly twice as high as the Q6. The US version of the Q8 uses a 24- or 32-zone FALD, while the Q9 uses a 480-zone FALD.
    6. Between a rock and a hard place :banghead:.
    7. The Q8 is $1,759 on Amazon right now.
      https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-QN65Q8F-Flat-QLED-Smart/dp/B079Z5FCH8
      Check that. Didn't notice it was a third-party seller.
    In a normally lit room like you're describing the picture will be fine. I don't know if it's the coating they use or what, but I've never noticed glare on mine. The light gets diffused, but the picture quality isn't negatively affected like displays using a matte coating.
     
  35. Verge

    Verge [H]ardness Supreme

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    Seconded, have one in my game room and it looks great. Vizio has always done the best with the FALD(at least on the p series, i guess m sucks this year). Blacks look really good, and HDR highlights will burn my retina's when it's completely dark in there.
     
  36. DoubleTap

    DoubleTap [H]ard|Gawd

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    So once I got the lay of the land and started to understand the product line differences, I realized that OLED is out for sure - regardless of motion issues. I'm confident that if it was just me, I could avoid burn in, but my kids love Mario and all his games and that crap is going to wreck an OLED.

    My original position was a 55" OLED for around 1100.

    Then I decided an edge lit would be fine in 65, but wife was pushing back on the 65 (too big). Now she's saying she'll be OK with a 65 but I don't think edge lit is going to work.

    From what I've seen from actual owners of the Q8s, I think that would work well for me.

    I'm trying to decide what I can do / get away with: I need to get a new receiver as we're just using a basic SMSL Q5 Pro right now so I could go Q8/55 and a receiver or I could probably just go bold and do the Q8/65 (or the Vizio Quantum, but that brand makes me nervous)

    Q8 looks great in a 55, but I'm wondering how the FALD works on the larger panel - maybe the larger area makes the FALD not work as well...?

    Also - with the Q8 65 being possibly in the 1600-1700 range, Massdrop has the Q9 65 for 1999.99 delivered. That kills my budget, but the Q9 seems to be another big jump... maybe.
     
  37. lightsout

    lightsout Gawd

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    I have heard these are great but panel lottery is a big issue. QC is not super high on these so you may be returning a couple until you get what you want.

    Whatever you do I would go 65". I also came form a 50" plasma and got a 55" LCD over black friday. I have regretted not jumping up to 65". Also don't forget about TCL, they make some great TV's, probably the best bang for your buck out there. The 65" 6 series is popular and under a G. Also you can get a 75" for under 2 grand.
    https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B07M8D8JDK/ref=twister_B07C9FDHMW?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

    But if you are able to swing a 65" OLED I would do that all day.
     
  38. Verge

    Verge [H]ardness Supreme

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    edge-lit sucks. If you are going to get an edge-lit, buy a cheapo 65 from walmart and save up for a bigger OLED in the future.
     
  39. DoubleTap

    DoubleTap [H]ard|Gawd

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    OLED is completely off the table.

    I'm down to the Q8FN 55" for about $1250 at a minimum to the Q8FN 65" for about $1700 to a 65" Q9FN for $2k if I'm feeling bold.

    Those all have local dimming and very high HDR brightness of well over 1000nits...
     
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  40. Nenu

    Nenu [H]ardened

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    I have the Samsung Q9FN, it is a wonderful TV and gaming display.

    2000 nits HDR is truly awesome and along with the great colour volume throughout the brightness range, those are the main reasons I didnt go OLED, they are no match.
    HDR gaming and movies really pop, everyone who has seen it is amazed.

    Side angle viewing will be the only Achilles heel.
    Within around 15 degrees from centre it looks at its best.
    Beyond that the colour washes out a bit but its still watchable.

    My favourite trick with this TV is turning on HDR+ for none HDR TV/movies/games.
    It gives that CRT boost to image quality I have been missing for 10 years. Even my old Panny plasma cant compete with this.
    For best effect I set HDR+ backlight strength to the same as normal viewing so it doesnt appear much brighter. Then it only highlights things that should be very bright and does a great job.
    I leave it on all the time except when watching an HDR movie/game, then its better to have true HDR :)

    Gaming is extremely low latency. I dont even enable gaming mode because its good enough without (and lets me still use HDR+)
    I game at 1440p 120Hz, the dogs danglies. Even lower lag, ultra smooth and wonderful image quality.

    I am in awe of this TV.
    Look at the side viewing angles in a store to be sure you are ok with that.

    edit
    forgot to mention it has a better anti glare coating than other TVs in the QLED range.
    It works very well.
    There is no glass on the LCD you are seeing the panel directly through the anti reflective coating.
    The colour quality is superb.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2019
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