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Regular Cars Getting Black Boxes?

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Black box flight recorders are common on airplanes but what about in your next car? Other than trouble codes and such, why would your car have to record and store how you drive unless it was to use it against you at a later date? Maybe I’m just paranoid but I don't like it, do you? Blame forum member Vengence for the link.

Florida attorney Scott Weires was eagerly awaiting delivery of his new Nissan GT-R. But in late August, Weires canceled his order--not because he doesn't want the $82,000 Super Silver supercar he has lusted for since it was first unveiled as a concept seven years ago. Weires says he's uncomfortable with the fact that every GT-R has a recording device strapped to its chassis, an electronic black box that monitors how each owner drives his or her GT-R.
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Yea completely unnecessary. Physics pretty much does the speed calculation at a crash. Thats the only benifit I could see to having one of these. Plus the added cost, and not to mention the invasion of privacy. Yea so what I cant drive 55...lol...
 
As a man who is personally a car enthusiast and frequents the track with a classic. I must say, I wouldn't have a problem with a black box strapped to my car. What's it going to do apart from the obvious? Steal my credit card details?

If I happen to crash the car in the future on a public street, in a fatal accident for myself or others, then this black box may be able to explain what exactly happened in those few moments, from G's, to acceleration, braking time, RPM, everything. The black box would most likely show a side of facts never before seen on the road. Whether it was my fault or another person's fault, the black box is showing another side to a story of what may have happened and since I'm speaking theoritically, we''ll go with this theoritical point of view.

Those who aren't confident in there ability to keep in their pants on the road, are most likely the same kind of people who choose to not want the black box in their car.
 
I am the last person to have some big brother speech, but the only use for one of those boxes is to tell on you. Be it in an accident, for tickets, etc. SOME privacy still somewhere would be nice.
 
Paperstar said:
Those who aren't confident in there ability to keep in their pants on the road, are most likely the same kind of people who choose to not want the black box in their car.
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Are you saying that people that don't want this are those that check on their boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse...?
 
Also this invasion of privacy, is also in my opinion, a load of shit. What privacy is there to invade? Where you live? That's okay, I saw a R35 parked in a driveway, must be your house. I'll steal your car tomorrow early when I wake up and eat my weet-bix.

Added cost? It's a premium car at $82k, which consumes more fuel than a RB25DET. That's the same as buying a Bugatti-V and saying you care about petrol prices going up.

Let's face it, the average joe just wants to drop gear in a R35 at the end of his street without the fear that if he hits someone; pole; car, they'll be hard evidence agaisnt him.
 
Is this "black box recording device for insurance claims" - as talked about by some UK insurance companies. (They reduce your premiums if you have it fitted) Yes - rather dodgy as you have no control over the data. Even dodgier as the UK Government started thinking of using the idea for taxes!!!


Or is this the old thing the Nissan GT-Rs have had for years. These cars are computer geek cars which log everything in minutest detail just like a Formula One race car. You can then upload this telemetry data to your laptop when you get home to see how fast you did the commute from office to home. :) All for the manic tuners.

I remember seeing a GT-R at the Brighton Speed Trials a few years back. The owner had it lashed to his laptop and was revving the engine from there while tuning it. That is a proper [H] car with overclocking potential :D

I am no expert, but I believe this logging would be controllable by the owner.
 
Paperstar, and when your insurance company uses the information from the past two days to show that your average speed when you were in 6th was 65, and the fastest speed limit for a 50 mile radius is 60... so you obviously have a problem with speeding... and they're going to jack your rates...

you don't have a problem with that?

Cause I dunno about you, but around here driving 60 is a good way to get yourself killed.
 
On a sports car like the GT-R I think it is actually more to aid in the refinement of tuning, etc. for how you drive vs. it being an accident investigation device.

That being said, I dont think it would be a bad thing if cars did have a black box for accident investigation. So many stupid ass drivers out there (almost get hit almost everyday by idiots just doing stupid things) that if they thought they were being watched they might think before doing things. In reality though I would see it as something like airplane black boxes where they are only accessed upon an issue (like an accident) and are not full time wireless monitoring...
 
While the technology isn't new at all, its application to passenger cars is. I fully condone these devices in public transportation vehicles (bus, cab, train, ect).

what many people fail to realize is that the modern computers in cars now, can, and do to some extent already monitor all this crap. all it would take is a firmware update to enable it to actually act like a black box as well.
 
BlueMeanie said:
Is this "black box recording device for insurance claims" - as talked about by some UK insurance companies. (They reduce your premiums if you have it fitted) Yes - rather dodgy as you have no control over the data. Even dodgier as the UK Government started thinking of using the idea for taxes!!!


Or is this the old thing the Nissan GT-Rs have had for years. These cars are computer geek cars which log everything in minutest detail just like a Formula One race car. You can then upload this telemetry data to your laptop when you get home to see how fast you did the commute from office to home. :) All for the manic tuners.

I remember seeing a GT-R at the Brighton Speed Trials a few years back. The owner had it lashed to his laptop and was revving the engine from there while tuning it. That is a proper [H] car with overclocking potential :D

I am no expert, but I believe this logging would be controllable by the owner.
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I'm not too sure of the internals of most skylines, but apart from the ECU and few other computers inside the car, the black box could also be used for tuning on the track? Might be something interesting to look up while having a cup of tea and some biscuits. :p
 
I think recording devices like this should be mandatory on every car sold. The reason is simple, there are too many stupid drivers these days. So when some idiot has an accident, this "black box" should be checked to see how they drive. The other circumstance this can help with is determining when mechanical failure was a contributing factor in the accident. It's just that I'd guess "most accidents" aren't caused by "mechanical failure", they're caused by driver error.
 
Khanmots said:
Paperstar, and when your insurance company uses the information from the past two days to show that your average speed when you were in 6th was 65, and the fastest speed limit for a 50 mile radius is 60... so you obviously have a problem with speeding... and they're going to jack your rates...

you don't have a problem with that?

Cause I dunno about you, but around here driving 60 is a good way to get yourself killed.
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Forgive me for being a little naive on the details; driving 60 is a good way to get yourself killed? Is this on a freeway of some sort?
 
Cannydog said:
I think recording devices like this should be mandatory on every car sold. The reason is simple, there are too many stupid drivers these days. So when some idiot has an accident, this "black box" should be checked to see how they drive. The other circumstance this can help with is determining when mechanical failure was a contributing factor in the accident. It's just that I'd guess "most accidents" aren't caused by "mechanical failure", they're caused by driver error.
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I agree they could be good for mechanical failure reasons, but even if your brakes go out and you rear end someone its still your fault for failing to maintain your vehicle. If they do it this way and the box notifies you of nearing failure you could be given a negligent driving ticket since you knew the part was bad...
 
Killa_2327 said:
Just another thing to take away our privacy...
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PRIVACY!?! Um... I hate to break it to you. But you don't own the roads you drive on, they are Public Property. That means that when you chose to pull out of your driveway, you're giving up part of your "right to privacy". And there isn't anything in the Law that guarantees the "right" for you to Drive like a Maniac and have that be "private".
 
I'm pretty sure current cars already do this. It will record if you had your seatbelt on, plus it shows if the airbag module was working or not.
 
Cannydog said:
PRIVACY!?! Um... I hate to break it to you. But you don't own the roads you drive on, they are Public Property. That means that when you chose to pull out of your driveway, you're giving up part of your "right to privacy". And there isn't anything in the Law that guarantees the "right" for you to Drive like a Maniac and have that be "private".
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It's no ones business whether I drive slow or if I drive fast unless I'm endangering others. Sorry, but when I get off work at midnight and theres no one on the highway, it is not your business whether I'm going the speed limit or not. Why the hell should that be?

So apparently everyone that doesn't want a black box in their car must be an idiot that drives like a maniac?
 
Cannydog said:
PRIVACY!?! Um... I hate to break it to you. But you don't own the roads you drive on, they are Public Property. That means that when you chose to pull out of your driveway, you're giving up part of your "right to privacy". And there isn't anything in the Law that guarantees the "right" for you to Drive like a Maniac and have that be "private".
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Unfortunately there are those that think it is 'cool' to be invulnerable and heel-toe around corners on public streets.

If this is the intention of the 'black box' ultimately in the R-35, then that won't effect those crashing into walls on a race track. That's the only legal place you can go crash and kill yourself realisitically speaking; and if you don't kill yourself, don't expect to be going back anytime soon to the track.
 
Killa_2327 said:
It's no ones business whether I drive slow or if I drive fast unless I'm endangering others. Sorry, but when I get off work at midnight and theres no one on the highway, it is not your business whether I'm going the speed limit or not. Why the hell should that be?

So apparently everyone that doesn't want a black box in their car must be an idiot that drives like a maniac?
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Yes. I will say it bluntly, you're an idiot.

Speed limits exist for a reason, for the small percentage of something out of the norm occuring, causing you to brake suddenly and spin/flip/fly off the road. You may not care about what happens to your own life, but others do, someone has to pull the steering well out of the gouged out portion of your intestines when you've slammed a solid object at well over 100km/h (60mp/h).
 
..and at the middle of the night more especially, where vision is limited. This should be common sense? Why are you lacking this, for goodness sake.
 
Steve said:
Other than trouble codes and such, why would your car have to record and store how you drive unless it was to use it against you at a later date? Maybe I’m just paranoid but I don't like it, do you? Blame forum member Vengence for the link.
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Maybe next time I submit a link it'll be less depressing. :(
 
Seems to me certain Ford SUV have had the ability to replay 2-3 minutes or telemetry prior to a crash for a while now. I remember seeing this arguement back in 2001 or so.
 
I seriously doubt this is anything like what is in emergency service vehicles, which have had boxes that record the top speed the vehicle has been driven during the employee's shift, among other information, for quite a while now.

"These warranty issues are a little unsettling," said Weires. "That was a huge part of my decision."
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So.... He's admitting that he's going to void the warranty, and going into the future kicking and screaming.

Today, every 2009 Nissan sold in the United States is fitted with an EDR, and along with nearly every automaker selling EDR-equipped vehicles, Nissan re-cords or will be able to record the 30 data points that the federal government will require of all EDR-equipped vehicles by 2012.
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He can cry about it all he wants, but it's happening.

[/QUOTE]U.S. automakers remain at the forefront of EDR proliferation, which isn't surprising given that General Motors pioneered EDRs in race cars in the 1970s and '80s and installed the first rudimentary black-box recorders in passenger cars in its 2000-model-year vehicles. GM vehicles equipped with OnStar tap into onboard black boxes to diagnose operating systems. With the owner's permission, OnStar will use that data to notify the owner of pending service needs.[/QUOTE]

OnStar being able to tap into this information is an invasion of privacy. I believed it was from it's inception, and I will never buy a vehicle with it.
 
MrMike said:
OnStar being able to tap into this information is an invasion of privacy. I believed it was from it's inception, and I will never buy a vehicle with it.
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It is this invasion of privacy that I can not understand. Could you perhaps shed some light from your perspective on the subject?

I propose that it's a ridiculous notion, what private information can they obtain of you? That perhaps you are 55, own three children, earn 78k per annual, your CC details are XXX-XXX-XXX-XXX-XXX and you start your car at 5:30am and stop by starbucks at 6:00am and park it at 6:30am and then park.

From there you start your car at 5:30PM, make your way home. Etc.. etc..

Want I want to know, apart from where you go, to and from being slighted recorded, is what exactly is this invasion of privacy? Is it perhaps that they're selling the information that you goto Mcdonalds instead of KFC? or that you drive down a certain street more than the next one? (Which in turn might lead to traffic lights on that street).

I try to see this invasion of privacy from many different perspectives and I cannot seem to see the light on the subject, someone--anyone, educate me.
 
I think this is a good thing. But it breaks down to one issue for me.

1)Black box records data and has to be torn out of the wreckage to get the data off of it. It has no real link to the outside world. GOOD THING

2)Black Box can be accessed wirelessly or has any other easily accessible way to get the data off of it. BAD THING

Most cars will already record everything when the airbags deploy, but IIRC they basically have to rip the computer out of the car and pull a chip off the board to get the data. So unless they have to have it, they don't do it. I am just going off of memory about this, so I could be totally wrong.
 
az_max said:
Seems to me certain Ford SUV have had the ability to replay 2-3 minutes or telemetry prior to a crash for a while now. I remember seeing this arguement back in 2001 or so.
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My 2005 Ford Expedition had this ability. It recorded the vehicle's speed, braking information and can even tell if you were in a skid or out of control prior to the crash sensors being set off. (Fortunately I never used this feature.) I believe the 2007 and newer Chevrolet and GMC SUV's have this ability now as well.
 
I own a GT-R and almost canceled because of the black box. Because I primarily drive my car at the track I decided to get it. I find it offensive that this be made a requirement. What is next, black boxes for bicycles and shoes?
 
I guess I'm okay with it provided it doesn't try to phone the authorities, insurance carriers, or anyone for that matter. Not saying that I want to do any illegal activities, it just seems ripe for abuse. It should just be a black box that doesn't have any connections to the outside world that might help in accident investigations or performance tuning.

Of course, if the box actually records audio and video of what goes on in or around the car then I don't want anything to do with it.
 
jnmunsey said:
I own a GT-R and almost canceled because of the black box. Because I primarily drive my car at the track I decided to get it. I find it offensive that this be made a requirement. What is next, black boxes for bicycles and shoes?
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You've made it clear that this offends you, but what logical explanation is there behind why it is so offensive? Is it perhaps the higher ups don't trust you and you feel like big brother is watching you?

If that's the case, why don't you perhaps do the right thing, turn around and tell Big Brother to go fuck himself and try and catch you doing something bad? I'm still waiting for someone to explain why their privacy feels threatened if they aren't the type to do anything wrong.
 
az_max said:
Seems to me certain Ford SUV have had the ability to replay 2-3 minutes or telemetry prior to a crash for a while now. I remember seeing this arguement back in 2001 or so.
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Yeah, the difference is this is a few days worth, not a few minutes. I have no problem with something that holds a 2-3 min cache and then records that data if a crash occurs. That's fine. But there is no reason to record 2-3 days worth.
 
SockMan! said:
Of course, if the box actually records audio and video of what goes on in or around the car then I don't want anything to do with it.
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It's not the equivalent of Batman's sonar. It cannot record audio or video, rest assured.
 
I would not under any circumstance have a black box in my car or otherwise. If I was buying a new car that would be the first thing I would ask about and if it did, I would ask the dealer to remove it or lose a sale. I don't want anything recording how I drive, where I drive because the box records raw physics data of the car, not the circumstances or context. Once insurance agencies start using this as an excuse to not pay out on claims then you have a different animal on your hands. No fucking way.
 
Oh, and one more thing. Because of the data it is taking (accelerometers in particular), you could reconstruct where someone has been so long as you know thier final position (or initial, or any point with a given time in the data).

This isn't about doing wanting to get away with doing illegal activites. It's just more information that could become public or hacked to be used against you. Look at all the people on myspace who give out thier personal info then have it used against them at school. It's 100% legal to go to a strip club or a church, but depending on what group you run with, that may be something you don't want someone else to know you did. There is nothing WRONG with having an expectation of privacy.

And for all those who say you don't have anything to hide, does that mean I can come install a camera in your living room, your bedroom, how about your bathroom? See there is a limit to how much your willing to put up with. How about if it was a camera instead of a black box? Or a GPS tracking unit? Would that still be ok with you?
 
Paperstar said:
I'm still waiting for someone to explain why their privacy feels threatened if they aren't the type to do anything wrong.
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Context and circumstance. It's not about doing anything wrong. It's about what the device records in terms of raw data and for how long. What it doesn't record is the context and/or the circumstances by which that data was derived. You can't paint a picture without getting the overall big picture and if a device like this just gives you the inside baseball of what the car is doing and not the whys then it's a device solely to impugn you as the driver. In a court of law this is bad. For an insurance agency to not pay out to you because they deem the data not in your favor regardless of the circumstance or context, this is bad. It gives details, not the big picture. That is important.
 
Paperstar said:
I'm still waiting for someone to explain why their privacy feels threatened if they aren't the type to do anything wrong.
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Would your privacy feel threatend if I were to sit and watch you while you were on the toilet? I mean your not doing anything wrong, so what would be wrong with that? Or how about if I watched you and your girlfriend/wife have sex? There isn't anything wrong with that, so what is the problem if I watch you?
 
Scream And Fly said:
I'm positive they'll be countermeasures to this.
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there already is, here's mine

sledgehammer.jpg
 
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