Regular Cars Getting Black Boxes?

Fail comparisons are made of fail.
I would support such a device, too many people simply cannot drive properly. If this device could possibly result in lower insurance rates I would support it even more. I am sick of paying ridiculous insurance premiums simply because I belong to some arbitrary risk group.
 
vengence said:
Would your privacy feel threatend if I were to sit and watch you while you were on the toilet? I mean your not doing anything wrong, so what would be wrong with that? Or how about if I watched you and your girlfriend/wife have sex? There isn't anything wrong with that, so what is the problem if I watch you?
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Even with such poor examples, I still cannot understand the core point or threat a majority of you feel. Taking a shit is taking a shit, having sex is having sex, driving a car is driving a car. Try not to play semantics.

All I have gathered is, fear of information being used in a manipulative way via insurance company's or taking things out of situational circumstances, leading to you being found unfairly judged. The latter is an issue thought from many perspectives though; the black box is not an ultimatum or answer.

I'm afraid I have no choice but to agree to disagree, I do not have the wit nor calibur to continue beating this dead horse. /sweet surrender?
 
I don't like it either!!!
I even turned down a job offer in such company that develops in car black box technology.
I simply told them that they wouldn't want to employ someone like myself.
 
This isn't new, a lot of cars have had black boxes in them since the late 90's.

My 98 was the only 4th gen LS1 based Camaro that didn't have the black box data recorder. It's one of the main reasons I ended up with this particular year.

I can see it being a double edge sword to some drivers. In the case you caused the accident, odds are it'll speak volumes about the moments of what you did before the crash. IF you are the victim, you will WELCOME it as it can prove your innocence as well as the other driver's guilt in one shot. It's one less hassle in the battle with insurance companies during settlement.

Seriously, dealing with insurance and settlements SUCK and the more evidence on your side, the better. I speak from experience on this one case dragged out 4 years.

Personally, I don't really care. Most cars have this now.
 
Paperstar said:
Forgive me for being a little naive on the details; driving 60 is a good way to get yourself killed? Is this on a freeway of some sort?
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I assume he means 60 is too slow. Here in Atlanta, the speed limit on highways inside the perimeter is 55, but most people drive about 80. I've tried driving 55 before and it was downright terrifying with all the cars coming up that fast behind me and having to swerve around at the last second.
 
MichiganTeddyBear said:
While the technology isn't new at all, its application to passenger cars is. I fully condone these devices in public transportation vehicles (bus, cab, train, ect).

what many people fail to realize is that the modern computers in cars now, can, and do to some extent already monitor all this crap. all it would take is a firmware update to enable it to actually act like a black box as well.
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you would not even need a firmware update...you would be surprised at the amount of data that is currently available from any of the onboard modules.

vehicle speed, throttle angle, brake inputs,steering angle inputs and many more are already monitored and stored.
 
Most cars computers already record stats for a crash, they record throttle position, braking force, and other stats. And once the insurance company "buys" your car after a crash it is theres to do with as they wish. Even use it against you in court.

I don't see why honest people object to things like this. its the people out there committing insurance fraud that should be worried.
 
It's not just insurance, but warranty support as well. Most dealers have clauses against "racing", should a part in your car fail. Now, few will actually quantify racing for you. Let's say your black box record you going 0-60 in <5 seconds 10 times in the last week. Suppose you also have a problem with your engine or transmission around that time and have it taken in to the dealer. They check out the box, saw your acceleration, and said, "Nope, you busted it, you pay for it." Now you may have been responsible and just were accelerating to highway speeds from on-ramp stoplights, but that doesn't matter, because you're a racer now. And you have no warranty on the engine/drivetrain of your car.
 
So after reading all 3 pages I will sum the whole thread up for you:

Insurance Companies are the Devil.
 
Paperstar said:
It's not the equivalent of Batman's sonar. It cannot record audio or video, rest assured.
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Not yet : - however its only a matter of time before it happens. If the people in this forum represent the current mindset of U.S. citizens with an alarmingly lack of concern for there increasing lack of privacy and civil rights - then consider it a certainty it will happen eventually because no cares enough to stop it.
 
The logs in the computer do not keep data for more than an hour of driving.

Accelerating from 0-60 in 5 sec or WHATEVER the time may be still falls within the normal use of the car. That's why rev limiters and speed limiters are there to prevent you from damaging it under conditions that are possible for the car. What if you needed to pass a car on the highway and you floored it and hit redline? How does that constitute racing? It doesn't and it's something that does happen on a regular basis. Heck my Accord will redline not because I want to but because I have no choice in getting a decent amount of acceleration. Is it bad for the car? No. What good is a car sold by a manufacturer that if pushed to the limits once in awhile will break? Common sense prevails here.

Even GM's changed the warranty of the vette to allow it to "break" on track. It's encouraged that you report it to them not only for repair, but to learn of any potential weaknesses or defects.

For most cars though, you will NOT exceed the limitations made by the manufacturer unless modded.
 
Diablo2K said:
Most cars computers already record stats for a crash, they record throttle position, braking force, and other stats. And once the insurance company "buys" your car after a crash it is theres to do with as they wish. Even use it against you in court.

I don't see why honest people object to things like this. its the people out there committing insurance fraud that should be worried.
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You say this like you don't know that insurance is a fraud in it of itself. Honest people get screwed day after day by their insurance companies. Even if they aren't at fault in the accident. The insurance company will be more than happy to increase your premium because now you're high risk. High risk for not even doing anything wrong. But, you're right they are soooo innocent those insurance companies. The operative word being company. They are out to make money, and as much of it as possible.
 
Slade said:
Accelerating from 0-60 in 5 sec or WHATEVER the time may be still falls within the normal use of the car. That's why rev limiters and speed limiters are there to prevent you from damaging it under conditions that are possible for the car. What if you needed to pass a car on the highway and you floored it and hit redline? How does that constitute racing? It doesn't and it's something that does happen on a regular basis. Heck my Accord will redline not because I want to but because I have no choice in getting a decent amount of acceleration. Is it bad for the car? No. What good is a car sold by a manufacturer that if pushed to the limits once in awhile will break? Common sense prevails here.
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It tends to be a dealer thing and not a manufacturer thing (unless you figure that dealers of a particular manufacturer are shadier than those of another).
 
My car has one...and to me it's useless. In fact, the only purpose it COULD serve, which it currently does not, is to provide me a datalogger I could examine at my own will to determine what my car is doing and allow me to improve on it's weak points.

So, barring the ability to use it for myself, I think it's a total waste of my money since I paid for the damn thing by buying the car.
 
Methadras said:
I would not under any circumstance have a black box in my car or otherwise. If I was buying a new car that would be the first thing I would ask about and if it did, I would ask the dealer to remove it or lose a sale.
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So you are never going to buy a modern car?
 
Well since I work in the auto industry, If you own a car thats has air bags then you have a car with a black box. It's intergrated into the airbag module itself and it monitors all data that would be important in a crash. It monitors 1 minute before and 1 minute after impact.

You need special software that is only available to the auto manufactures, dealers have no access to this data. It's simply used to prove the manuafacture is innocent when a consumer tries to sue us, claiming a defect caused the crash. Most people will lie their ass off cause a lawyer wants to make big bucks and promises the people big bucks. I had one guy claim the brakes didnt function and thats why he hit a tree. In reality he was still accelerating right up until the impact .4 seconds of brake application before impact.

I hope this helps you guys understand what they are used for, we dont use it to spy on your daily driving habits, well less you sue us.
 
Well, with all of the idiots that are licensed to drive, then good. If you are not breaking the law, then what do you have to worry about. I am sure these are used to help when an accident occurs anyway.
 
Corvettes have these also, been there for years, a lot of rental companies are putting these also in there.
 
Slade said:
The logs in the computer do not keep data for more than an hour of driving.

Accelerating from 0-60 in 5 sec or WHATEVER the time may be still falls within the normal use of the car. That's why rev limiters and speed limiters are there to prevent you from damaging it under conditions that are possible for the car. What if you needed to pass a car on the highway and you floored it and hit redline? How does that constitute racing? It doesn't and it's something that does happen on a regular basis. Heck my Accord will redline not because I want to but because I have no choice in getting a decent amount of acceleration. Is it bad for the car? No. What good is a car sold by a manufacturer that if pushed to the limits once in awhile will break? Common sense prevails here.

Even GM's changed the warranty of the vette to allow it to "break" on track. It's encouraged that you report it to them not only for repair, but to learn of any potential weaknesses or defects.

For most cars though, you will NOT exceed the limitations made by the manufacturer unless modded.
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Just my oppinion, but if you are driving a GTR and you have to floor it past another motorist to pass him... you are most likley going dangerously too fast already ;) :D
 
I'm sorry, but if you sit on waiting list for GT-R for 3 years and then when its about to ship discover a documented feature and decide that you dont want it anymore, well than you're just a moron. I'd kill for a GT-R and I'd get even if it recorded my in-car convos, because they'd all sound the same "I LOOOOVE THIS CAR".
 
Slade said:
This isn't new, a lot of cars have had black boxes in them since the late 90's.
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+1, I thought people already knew this. The airbag controllers in most (if not nearly all) cars record data leading up to, during, and immediately after the crash. I remember my local news channel did a special on it with Ford showing all the things it records. I can tell when you pressed the gas, how hard you pressed it, how you steered, when you braked, etc.
 
It's nothing new. If you've bought a car in the last 10 years there's a descent chance it already does this to one extent or another.
 
Paperstar said:
All I have gathered is, fear of information being used in a manipulative way via insurance company's or taking things out of situational circumstances, leading to you being found unfairly judged. The latter is an issue thought from many perspectives though; the black box is not an ultimatum or answer.
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But in the hands of an insurance company, it will be used exactly for that end, with that intent. They already employ statistics just to screw more money out of people who are under 25 on car insurance, no matter how clean their record may actually be since obtaining their license, no matter how careful of a driver they may actually be. Hell, even if you're not at fault for an accident, YOUR RATES STILL GO UP! Someone breaks into your car in your driveway? Rates go up. Tree falls on it? Rates go up. Speeding ticket? Rates go up. Get carjacked? Rates go up. Drive safe for x years? Lowered premium.

Yet all of a sudden if you get married, you're magically this super-responsible adult now and thus your rates drop? Statistics may show that married people tend to be more responsible drivers, but the numbers don't show how many people still remain stupid even with a ring on their finger. My car insurance company can adjust how much you pay based on what kind of security system you have on the car. No matter what, however, a car I'm still paying for will in the end get stolen by a criminal determined enough. Yet if I have the next best thing to a starving, steroid-junkie guard dog chained up to my car and a self-destruct system that turns the car into a 4-wheeled crater when it can no longer detect my keys in a certain radius, I magically get lower rates just because I tried harder than the guy parked next to me to keep a criminal from boosting it?

And you seriously entrust these companies, with this kind of logic they possess, to not use the black box as a means of screwing you over even further?
 
It really depends on if law enforcement has access to the information.

I would even like to have a camera in my car. If the other driver is at fault, I'll be the first person to send the tapes to my insurance/police.

If I'm at fault, I'm not against doing whats right, but I would not release the tapes, and possibly destroy them.
 
u guys are completly missing the point of this black box in the GT-r. its for warranty issues. they can say look.. it looks like you been drag racing or you been to the track. or you driving 120+mph is what cause the gasket to blow.

why do you think theres very little aftermarket support for this gt-r. its cause nissian had to lock the car down hard to get it approved from the japanse goverment to release a car with over 300hp advertised.

basically nissian had to cut off all the aftermarket companines from developing parts for this car. look how hard it is to chane the rims on this car with out pissing the car off.
 
Paperstar said:
You've made it clear that this offends you, but what logical explanation is there behind why it is so offensive? Is it perhaps the higher ups don't trust you and you feel like big brother is watching you?

If that's the case, why don't you perhaps do the right thing, turn around and tell Big Brother to go fuck himself and try and catch you doing something bad? I'm still waiting for someone to explain why their privacy feels threatened if they aren't the type to do anything wrong.
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Maybe because the point is, nobody wants to take that first dark step into having to say "I'm a law abiding citizen, therefore I'm willing to give up my right to privacy!"

I mean, that's the first step into fascism is it not? Sure, this technology might be benign, but how long will that last? I don't think people want to have a car in the future that constantly monitors them and spits out tickets from the dashboard every time it detects a law "broken".

That might sound outrageous now, but I've been around long enough to know that, what sounds outrageous and considered the realm of the paranoid at one time, can become perfectly accepted and seemingly normal at a later time.
 
vengence said:
Oh, and one more thing. Because of the data it is taking (accelerometers in particular), you could reconstruct where someone has been so long as you know thier final position (or initial, or any point with a given time in the data).
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:rolleyes:

The accelerometers, rate gyros, and signal processing needed to make an accurate inertial navigation system are prohibitively expensive to be installed in a normal consumer automobile. You would be lucky to find the exact postion of the car 10 seconds prior using acceleration data from the sensors in a car which are most likely inexpensive Analog Devices ADXL accelerometers.
 
The black boxes aren't for warranty issues.

A car that will break at 120mph??? Please... find me a normal car today that can't do 120mph. I'm not saying 120mph in 15 sec, but seriously.

Manufacturers have no love for the speed limit. When they make a car they know full well what they are selling and how fast it can go. Only here in north america are we obsessed with the concept of regulating speed and punishing for it.

I have a car that breaks all inner city speed limits in 1st gear and will land me a hefty fine in 2nd and probably have me towed at the top of 3rd. I still have 4th, and 5th and if 6th could be used to accelerate, then 6th as well.

Speed doesn't break a car. Acceleration will not break it. It's driving like an idiot that will break a car. Doing stupid stuff like in an auto and neutral dumping. You fully deserve to have your car break and warranty voided for such dumb moves.

Gotta re-think your glass house concept of today's cars if you think accelerating to 120mph will break one...
 
I have an 07 Monte SS as well that's been back to warranty for a few minor issues here and there. I've taken it to the track numerous times to see how it stacks up to my Camaro. It's a pig but for a daily driver type car, its fun. It also wheel hops like a bitch sometimes, so I have to ease it off the line. If I was a "dumb" driver, then I'd always let it wheel hop and eventually break the driveline. To make that happen though requires extraordinary conditions.

With a GT-R, already you have a car MEANT to be driven. The manufacturer knows that you will NOT baby it off the light, you will NOT hold the speed limit and you will NOT accelerate like an accord. That's a given for the type of car you are buying. You WILL drive the car HARD. The car is made to handle far better than what the average driver THINKS he can do in his car. Unless you are running 10 years of racing experience constantly pushing to the edge of technology limits, you will HIT your limit and skill capability far quicker than the car's limit. Reality check, you and most of the people of these forums are normal drivers. Few people really know what a real race car feels like.
 
Slade said:
The black boxes aren't for warranty issues.
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Then what else are they for? They are not designed for law enforcement, they are also not designed for insurance companies, however, both those agencies have long been pushing to get into that data (and some has).

They are designed for warranty purposes and claims against manufacturers, also, the EDR doubles as an air bag triggering mechanism, it logs the information on your driving habits and decides when it's appropriate to fire the airbags, this information can be later retrieved for claims against a automotive company or for an investigation probe (remember the ford explorer rollovers due to bad tire design?).
 
phalanx said:
:rolleyes:

The accelerometers, rate gyros, and signal processing needed to make an accurate inertial navigation system are prohibitively expensive to be installed in a normal consumer automobile. You would be lucky to find the exact postion of the car 10 seconds prior using acceleration data from the sensors in a car which are most likely inexpensive Analog Devices ADXL accelerometers.
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Nice try, but wrong. Coupled with the real time velocity data, the fact you have a very discrete and limited number of possible paths (assuming he isn't off roading in his GT-R), it is very easy to do.
 
Vorazan said:
I'm sorry, but if you sit on waiting list for GT-R for 3 years and then when its about to ship discover a documented feature and decide that you dont want it anymore, well than you're just a moron. I'd kill for a GT-R and I'd get even if it recorded my in-car convos, because they'd all sound the same "I LOOOOVE THIS CAR".
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Nice to know your price is so low.
 
How many of you didn't see all those privacy advocates going up in arms about this? *raises hand*

You guys complain about anything these days. Didn't it occur to you that maybe this black box was designed to HELP? Does everything have to have evil intent in order for it to exist? Hey look, you're on the internet. Chances are someone's invading your privacy right this moment! Quick, hide!

Lordy.
 
Azhar said:
How many of you didn't see all those privacy advocates going up in arms about this? *raises hand*

You guys complain about anything these days. Didn't it occur to you that maybe this black box was designed to HELP?
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The question is, help who?

To provide insurance companies data with which they can deny insurance claims, or LEO's data with which to prosecute you with?
 
My 2003 F150 does this already. Might not be for days I think it holds the last hours worth of information such as speed, engine speed, etc. And the sales guys up here (canada) are legally bound to inform the car buyer that this information can be used against you in accident situations...
 
Monkey God said:
The question is, help who?

To provide insurance companies data with which they can deny insurance claims, or LEO's data with which to prosecute you with?
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Most insurance agencies and law enforcement don't have access or the rights to access your black box information. Some states have actually passed laws prohibiting this and others have provided access only for law enforcement, some have outlined it in more detail in that it has to be a court order, a death has to result, or it has to be only in relation to the accident but can't be used in courts.

The reality of this is that there is nothing we can do about it... if you don't want a black box... then don't buy a car with airbags.
 
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