Rare Expensive Water Block?

No need for explanation 'zer0signal', I understand where you are coming from. This thread has morphed
toward the technical anyway.

What I was getting at is combining Ag & Al in a loop is bad for the same reason as
combining Cu & Al. Safe to say we can all agree on that? (i hope :D )
 
Ag + Al + Zn = no problem ;)

of course you have to replace the sacraficial anode regularly and clean up after it :p
 
Susquehannock said:
No need for explanation 'zer0signal', I understand where you are coming from. This thread has morphed
toward the technical anyway.

What I was getting at is combining Ag & Al in a loop is bad for the same reason as
combining Cu & Al. Safe to say we can all agree on that? (i hope :D )
Click to expand...

I agree that it's possible :D Practical application of theory would be needed for me to agree that it's a problem in reality, though. If I can get my hands on some silver, I'll try it...
 
Ice Czar said:
Ag + Al + Zn = no problem ;)

of course you have to replace the sacraficial anode regularly and clean up after it :p
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nope, only pure mg will work as an anode I believe
 
zer0signal667 said:
I agree that it's possible :D Practical application of theory would be needed for me to agree that it's a problem in reality, though. If I can get my hands on some silver, I'll try it...
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Sounds like fun to me. A silver block would be nice.
Unfortunately the motherboard I chose for my platform (soltek frn2) lacks the mounting holes around the
CPU socket. Otherwise I would have gone to water long ago.
 
Bill, why pure mg only? They used to use zinc sheets (still do?) as sacrificial anodes in ships/boats, and galvanized steel is zinc coated. Does it require a very harsh environment for zinc to be effective?
 
Just don't use aluminium. Forget the sacrificial anode business. A whole world of compatible high performing radiators, and we have to go and make life difficult by working out sacrificial anodes that will cause deposit buildups on the silver all to save $50 or so for the sake of an aluminium radiator?
 
believe it has to do with the galvanic difference, google it

as Cathar stated, better to not use aluminum
there are no sacrificial anodes in WCilg (other than aluminum) because the corrosion product itself is unacceptable
 
CAD OC'er said:
I bet that's "theseeker's" auction. remember the guy that drives an aston martin....
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BINGO! Yes it is mine and yes it is expensive. I actually own two of them, the Storm that is. I bought it to reproduce one myself and try some different materials. I found that you can copy it and improve it by using a metal that we use in blades for gas turbines, however, the cost for the end user would be prohibitive. In any event it is an exceptional block and I am still using the other one.
If you do not believe me, you can ask TN as I out bid her on the second one I purchased!
 
theseeker said:
Inconel 738
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Interesting. Improved performance by replacing the silver base-plate material (being the metal with the highest known thermal conductance in the physical world) with a metal alloy composition with ~1/5th the thermal conductivity.

Who would have thought?
 
Cathar said:
Interesting. Improved performance by replacing the silver base-plate material (being the metal with the highest known thermal conductance in the physical world) with a metal alloy composition with ~1/5th the thermal conductivity.

Who would have thought?
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Cathar, It was not my idea, but it appears to work well. Having said that, it was your design. My understanding is that Inconel works better has it gets warmer? BTW, we changed more than the base plate and we made it a little smaller in height.
 
theseeker said:
Cathar, It was not my idea, but it appears to work well. Having said that, it was your design. My understanding is that Inconel works better has it gets warmer? BTW, we changed more than the base plate and we made it a little smaller in height.
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Sugarland Texas FTW!!!!


Do you have any numbers?
 
and ?
wanna tell us about diamond next ?

you are a bullshitter, when you make a better wb post the results
words are cheap, whiskey costs money
 
theseeker said:
Cathar, It was not my idea, but it appears to work well. Having said that, it was your design. My understanding is that Inconel works better has it gets warmer? BTW, we changed more than the base plate and we made it a little smaller in height.
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Inconel will work better above 1732*F at which point the silver block would be turned to liquid... other than that, I doubt it ;)
 
BillA said:
you are a bullshitter, when you make a better wb post the results
words are cheap, whiskey costs money
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pretty harsh words to say about someone you have zero knowledge of......
 
R1ckCa1n said:
pretty harsh words to say about someone you have zero knowledge of......
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i've found this little exchange to be interesting so far, but this is a bit messed up.

when one of the top waterblock R&D minds in the world notes that the alloy has a lower degree of thermal conductivity than the silver material used in the original.......

and a second top mind chimes in that there is no way that a spoofed design using an alloy that has lower thermal conductivity could outperform the original.......

when these are people who often quarrel with each other online you respond that the second indivdual might not know what he is talking about in making such a comment, and they acutally agree on a given point, you actually bother to express a dissenting viewpoint.

fine and good that theseeker is rich as sin and has access to a machine shop and super-alloys, but does he have even half the knowledge regarding thermal management that these two have?

do you seriously think that he can build a better block than these men are capable of making? do you think that the opinions expressed by these two are baseless?
 
DFI Daishi said:
do you seriously think that he can build a better block than these men are capable of making? do you think that the opinions expressed by these two are baseless?
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No I don't, at least on purpose. That doesn't mean it can't happen. If I remember, his goal was to make one for himself and not go into mass production.
 
I suspect its more than that,
was a wb of similar design actually made in that alloy ?
an e-penis thing more likely

what is being claimed is not possible here, middle earth possibly ?
 
BillA said:
I suspect its more than that,
was a wb of similar design actually made in that alloy ?
an e-penis thing more likely

what is being claimed is not possible here, middle earth possibly ?
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What you fail to realize is anything is possible, given enough money.

If it was for e-penis sake he would have posted long ago regarding his creation.
 
Well, while Bill and I bicker about the finer points of what exactly is required to assess and establish waterblock performance for bare die and IHS scenarios, it seems that both of us are stooges in the "real world".

All that is needed is some $$$, an unproven claim involving random exotic metal alloys, and that's good enough to depose years of research that's been backed in independently verified results.

The issue, as always, is the vast burden of proof. When people are willing to accept absence of proof as good enough, then is it any wonder why we see these endless debates that rival religion vs science, or rather, faith vs proof.
 
Cathar said:
Well, while Bill and I bicker about the finer points of what exactly is required to assess and establish waterblock performance for bare die and IHS scenarios, it seems that both of us are stooges in the "real world".

All that is needed is some $$$, an unproven claim involving random exotic metal alloys, and that's good enough to depose years of research that's been backed in independently verified results.

The issue, as always, is the vast burden of proof. When people are willing to accept absence of proof as good enough, then is it any wonder why we see these endless debates that rival religion vs science, or rather, faith vs proof.
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Oh come on now...... He posted months ago that he was doing this so its not like this is a surprise. Some people, such as theseeker, are in it for themselves. He has the money and the means to do it so why not? Does that mean it performs better than a regular version? Way too hard to say. I did not see any mention of\ overclocking increases so it means nothing to me.
 
R1ckCa1n said:
No I don't, at least on purpose. That doesn't mean it can't happen. If I remember, his goal was to make one for himself and not go into mass production.
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Thanks RC, What I did is quite simple. I took the best performing block known to man and tried to make one that would work better, if possible. I am not going to mass produce it or produce it any fashion. It was simply a "hobby" thing. Cathar knows much more about H20 blocks than I could ever hope too! I just had the resources at my fingertips and I wanted to play around.
Some people in here take this stuff way too seriously.
 
If there's a way to make it better, I'd certainly like to know about it.

First I'd like to know if it really was better though.

Of course it's all taken seriously. Good things don't come from being flippant about what is being undertaken. Part of the pathological problem of being a perfectionist.
 
theseeker said:
I am not going to mass produce it or produce it any fashion. It was simply a "hobby" thing. Cathar knows much more about H20 blocks than I could ever hope too! I just had the resources at my fingertips and I wanted to play around.
Some people in here take this stuff way too seriously.
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I figured that out a few months back when you told me what exotic alloy you were using. That shit is really difficult to machine unless you use specially ground tools. I am curious as to how you put the jets in? Some kind of EDM process?

BTW, quite often it is someone playing around that discovers something that many others have missed for one reason or another. I remember back in the 70's kicking around an idea in school that everyone thought was worthless: Passing a laser tube through a radioactive isotope casing to see if it would help with output. Talked with a friend who is a laser physicist a few months ago and he says that is now being done in experimental laser research. Not taking credit for this idea as it was just beer and pretzels talk for me. Nonetheless it is important to remember that many great scientific advances have come from hobbyist's and others who have accidently stumbled on some rather interesting stuff. ;)
 
Cathar said:
Less romance, more of the real stuff, okay?
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LOL..... It would be fun to have the block sent to procooling for testing. Never know what might result.

on a side note, cathar: i removed my IHS this weekend because of all this talk. :)
 
Cathar said:
Less romance, more of the real stuff, okay?
Click to expand...

The machine used is a 5-way from Germany, the cost of which is $500k US. The process is quite simple, we take a picture with a 3d camera, which cost about $25k US and once the 3d info is procesed by the 5-way it produces a solid blade which lasts twice as long and it is 200-300% than a cast blade. Fortunately we had enough material left over to produce a G5. Needless to say, the tolerances of this machine are extremely low, almost non existent. Obviously, this process is great for turbine blades but the economics do not work for water blocks.
Just an example of a 40 yr old man using very expensive equipment to produce an extremely expensive toy!
Lastly, just remember that we used Cathars block for a refrence design and I am an AC guy.
 
theseeker said:
The machine used is a 5-way from Germany, the cost of which is $500k US. The process is quite simple, we take a picture with a 3d camera, which cost about $25k US and once the 3d info is procesed by the 5-way it produces a solid blade which lasts twice as long and it is 200-300% than a cast blade. Fortunately we had enough material left over to produce a G5. Needless to say, the tolerances of this machine are extremely low, almost non existent. Obviously, this process is great for turbine blades but the economics do not work for water blocks.
Just an example of a 40 yr old man using very expensive equipment to produce an extremely expensive toy!
Lastly, just remember that we used Cathars block for a refrence design and I am an AC guy.
Click to expand...
okay, now that we have some gross details established, how do you account for an alloy that cathar has previously pointed out has a much worse degree of thermal conductivity that the silver used in the original block producing an end product that you claim performs better?

did you use the top and middle plates from the original, or did you machine a complete block from start to finish?
 
DFI Daishi said:
okay, now that we have some gross details established, how do you account for an alloy that cathar has previously pointed out has a much worse degree of thermal conductivity that the silver used in the original block producing an end product that you claim performs better?

did you use the top and middle plates from the original, or did you machine a complete block from start to finish?
Click to expand...

I'm still waiting on pictures, and, you know, TESTING DATA.

I find it odd that someone went through all the trouble to create a block that allegedly performs better than one of, if not the best on the market, and it isn't plastered over every forum and watercooling site in the known world. Hell, even I was only making one or two I would ship one off to procooling asap.
 
endscape said:
I'm still waiting on pictures, and, you know, TESTING DATA.

I find it odd that someone went through all the trouble to create a block that allegedly performs better than one of, if not the best on the market, and it isn't plastered over every forum and watercooling site in the known world. Hell, even I was only making one or two I would ship one off to procooling asap.
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it's pointless to ask for hard data from the A-C crew.

i can honestle say that, were i truely loaded, i would not bother to send a custom block off to a review site. the only thing that matters to me is how well that my system performs for me. i don't really care what a reviewer has to say about the matter.

that does not generate good test data and does not tell the rest of the community where the bleeding edge is pointed, however i'm not really going to comment negatively on how theseeker is doing things.

about the only thing that i really think that he might acknowledge is that if he is simply going by what his computer's temp diode is telling him, there is no way to distinguish the G5 from a spoofed design from the background noise of testing with a live CPU using it's internal diode reading.
 
I love how the unknown creates discontent. :rolleyes:

Maybe DFI should put up the 575k required to do this so he can test? If not, give it a rest.
 
R1ckCa1n said:
I love how the unknown creates discontent. :rolleyes:

Maybe DFI should put up the 575k required to do this so he can test? If not, give it a rest.
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would you please not shorten my handle to DFI? i'm asking you super-nice. i have no problem if you want to use daishi, DD, or even brad. please don't use DFI.

however as for the rest of it: i believe that i just expressed understanding with regard to theseeker's decision not to build and send a waterblock off for testing purposes.

i'm not going to give it a rest, and i hope by now that you realize as much, and know the reasons why.

please address some point of the current discussion as to why this block can or cannot possible put up the performance that is being attributed to it, rather than simply asking what is plainly absurd: a student footing the bill for testing that would knock most small buisnesses flat on thier asses.
 
DFI Daishi said:
it's pointless to ask for hard data from the A-C crew.

i can honestle say that, were i truely loaded, i would not bother to send a custom block off to a review site. the only thing that matters to me is how well that my system performs for me. i don't really care what a reviewer has to say about the matter.

that does not generate good test data and does not tell the rest of the community where the bleeding edge is pointed, however i'm not really going to comment negatively on how theseeker is doing things.

about the only thing that i really think that he might acknowledge is that if he is simply going by what his computer's temp diode is telling him, there is no way to distinguish the G5 from a spoofed design from the background noise of testing with a live CPU using it's internal diode reading.
Click to expand...

I can dream cant I? :p
 
DFI Daishi said:
would you please not shorten my handle to DFI? i'm asking you super-nice. i have no problem if you want to use daishi, DD, or even brad. please don't use DFI.

however as for the rest of it: i believe that i just expressed understanding with regard to theseeker's decision not to build and send a waterblock off for testing purposes.

i'm not going to give it a rest, and i hope by now that you realize as much, and know the reasons why.

please address some point of the current discussion as to why this block can or cannot possible put up the performance that is being attributed to it, rather than simply asking what is plainly absurd: a student footing the bill for testing that would knock most small buisnesses flat on thier asses.
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The person CLEARLY stated his objective of making ONE block. Knowning the cost to machine this block makes it completely impossible to mass produce and sell below I'm guessing a 500.00 range. Will people spend that much for 1 or 2c?

Like he stated, he is getting better temps with this respin. By how much is unknown and is irrelevant as there is only ONE on this earth.

My bad on quoting your sn. If I were you I'd change it to Daishi as it won't get you so worked up ;)
 
glib does not equal true, all that $ and no numbers ?
still bullsh*t

he said better; put up proof or be known as a liar
 
if its an e-penis thing thats cool for him
he claims to have bested the Storm, I asked for numbers
to date there is no photo (remember, 'other' changes too), nor any numbers

"Why is it that everyone is a liar or a cheat to you?"
TN, how do you distinguish between true and false ?
I am 60 years old and do not believe in Santa Claus or god.

I did a parametric analysis of the Storm and improved it, prior to receiving Stew's suggestions. Interestingly my changes and Stew's were very similar. So I certainly agree that this wb could be improved as I have done so. BigBucks claims to have spent money using a metal that cannot work to best a product the design of which he is manifestly ignorant. The guy is a liar and you all are gullible.

A snake oil salesman; you all believe that with lots of $$$ anything is possible. BigBucks convinced you that he had $$$, then claimed to have spent some $ (??) using unknown engn skills with a piss poor metal.

TN
why do you believe claims w/o any evidence whatsoever ?
 
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