• Some users have recently had their accounts hijacked. It seems that the now defunct EVGA forums might have compromised your password there and seems many are using the same PW here. We would suggest you UPDATE YOUR PASSWORD and TURN ON 2FA for your account here to further secure it. None of the compromised accounts had 2FA turned on.
    Once you have enabled 2FA, your account will be updated soon to show a badge, letting other members know that you use 2FA to protect your account. This should be beneficial for everyone that uses FSFT.

Rare Expensive Water Block?

D

DangerIsGo

2[H]4U
Joined
Apr 16, 2005
Messages
3,000
eBay Linky

Found this off ebay while seeing how much the swiftech storm went for. Never heard of it before and it seems his description is a little, how you say, vague? Not much info just saying its prob the best block ever. Anyone ever hear of it?
 
As an eBay Associate, HardForum may earn from qualifying purchases.
That actually is the best performing waterblock ever (for high-flow, high-pressure systems). It is made by Cathar/Little River Waterblocks Link and is basically custom made. The price on the eBay item is around how much it is brand-new. Edit: Procooling Review This is the review he is referring to on the eBay page.
 
It's like buying a piece of art, it's not just about the results, it's also about the work that goes into it.

That block represents the pinacle of waterblock design. That and the fact that it's not something that's turned out by the hundreds makes it more than a simple piece of cooling equipment, it's an investment.

You can pretty well bet that it's not going to go down in value.
 
madmat said:
It's like buying a piece of art, it's not just about the results, it's also about the work that goes into it.

That block represents the pinacle of waterblock design. That and the fact that it's not something that's turned out by the hundreds makes it more than a simple piece of cooling equipment, it's an investment.

You can pretty well bet that it's not going to go down in value.
Click to expand...

That's certainly why I bought my Cascade SS. Any block made by Cathar is a work of art, and the silver based ones are even more spectacular.

Its also nice that he produces the highest performing blocks on the market :p
 
Cathar said the G5 is .05-.08C lower than the G4 Storm. Yes its art, but not all of us can afford such things...
 
i don't know if the G5 counts as history yet, since i don't believe that the G7 is finished prototyping and available for sale.

all the same, it's the best performing block that you can buy right now.

and, since no one has yet pointed it out explicitly: the swiftech storm is a liscenced production version of the little river G4, with the G5 out performing it by a small margin.

is the performace gain proportional to the price increase? hell no. this is only for those who want and can afford the best, regardless of the premium price.
 
Silver is nice but the extra cost far outweighs the slight advantage it provides over Copper.

But if you want to pay through the teeth for a "piece of history" then go for it. :D
 
Susquehannock said:
Silver is nice but the extra cost far outweighs the slight advantage it provides over Copper.

But if you want to pay through the teeth for a "piece of history" then go for it. :D
Click to expand...
i've said something similar in the past regarding some silver waterblocks, but there are two things that you are not realizing in this particular instance:

1) the machining cost of that block is way more than the raw materials cost. it's part of cathar's stated design that that is the case. if you don't want to take his word on it, just think for a moment about the fact that there are 59 pits drilled into the metal base of that thing, with 59 nozzels in the middle plate to direct a stream of coolant into each pit. not only are the machined cuts really small, the structure of the two pieces have to line up with one-another. there's quite a lot more to the block as well, but the tollerancing required for the aspect that i mentioned is pretty harsh and therefore expensive to build.

2) unlike a few other silver designs (like the silver TDX or silver cuplex) this is not simply a design optimized for copper built out of silver. the block is designed from the ground up to get the most out of the fact that it is made out of silver, and therefore performs a bit better than the silver material alone accounts for.

there's no denying that it is expensive, but i don't think that you should be trashing the performance of this block, or attrubuting what it can do to the fact that it is made out of silver.
 
^^^ - as a metalsmith & retired master machinist I can respect the design & machine cost.
Yet I don't understand what you are trying to say about taking full advantage of the Silver since it's
thermal conductivity is so close to that of Copper.
Unless you are saying the block is specifically designed to compensate for Silver's lower
specific heat capacity (vs. copper). Then I can understand.
 
yes, such would necessitate a consideration of the difference in thermal capacitance
I am aware of no model for such
 
Susquehannock said:
^^^ - as a metalsmith & retired master machinist I can respect the design & machine cost.
Yet I don't understand what you are trying to say about taking full advantage of the Silver since it's
thermal conductivity is so close to that of Copper.
Unless you are saying the block is specifically designed to compensate for Silver's lower
specific heat capacity (vs. copper). Then I can understand.
Click to expand...
as far as the heat capacity vs thermal conductivity optimization goes, cathar says that he tweaks base thickness to optimize for that: balancing raw cooling power against ability to deal with local hot spots flaring up.

as for just how small the difference in thermal conductivity is: the added structural complexity to get equivalent cooling out of a copper block outweighs the added cost of the silver material with a somewhat simpler design, as i understand it.

i'm not saying that the performance difference is anything other than small, however when you're looking to make something that performs better than the best performing copper block on the market......even if the conductivity is only a little better, silver allows you some added head room.
 
BillA said:
yes, such would necessitate a consideration of the difference in thermal capacitance
I am aware of no model for such
Click to expand...
so.....any attempt to deal with this would requre shoot and see proto-typing, would it not?

or, would you say that it can't really be done even then?
 
BillA said:
eh ?
Stew is doing so repeatedly
empirically
Click to expand...
that's what i kind of thought myself......i just wanted you to clarify if you were saying that such optimization can't be done vs. saying that it can't be modeled.

it was my understanding that the prototype stage was to deal with issues like thermal capacity and related considerations, but i'm willing to admit that i could have been mistaken as to what those tests to and do not allow the designer to optimize for.
 
modeling really requires parametric testing to develop specific convection coefficients
 
{NcsO}ReichstaG said:
eh..paying so much money just to get a couple of degrees lower does not make sense imo :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Better than the AquaComput^H^H^H^H^H people that pay so much more money and get a couple of degrees higher temperatures :)
 
No bids yet.
So, what was the price of the Silver Storm G5 anyway? The reason I'm asking is because the
FAQ page (now outdated) said final cost would be around $150-160usd. The eBay auction starts at $225.

And here is a question ... as we all know galvanic corrosion is a problem when Copper & Aluminum
are used in the same loop. But what about Silver?
 
I bet that's "theseeker's" auction. remember the guy that drives an aston martin....
 
According to the procooling review the Storm G5 block was to cost 185 bux.
 
270.00 AUD I don't know what the current exchange rate is
Susquehannock said:
No bids yet.
So, what was the price of the Silver Storm G5 anyway? The reason I'm asking is because the
FAQ page (now outdated) said final cost would be around $150-160usd. The eBay auction starts at $225.

And here is a question ... as we all know galvanic corrosion is a problem when Copper & Aluminum
are used in the same loop. But what about Silver?
Click to expand...
 
^^^^ - Thanx :)

Back to galvanic corrosion (aka - dissimilar metal corrosion) ........
Since Silver is even lower on the "Anodic Index" than Copper I would suspect it would react
with Aluminum even more.

Gold & Platinum = 0.00V
Silver = 0.15V
Copper = 0.35V
Aluminum = 0.75V
Zinc = 1.25V

From what I have read there should be no more than 0.15V between the two metals in a
"harsh environment". A PC cooling loop should more than qualify. Given that I would be sure not
to use Aluminum in the same loop as this expensive but well designed waterblock.
 
cracking my first year chem text indicates that the galvanic potnetial between silver and copper is much less than that between copper and aluminium.

standard reduction potentials are:
Ag = 0.800
Cu = 0.340
Al = -1.676

an anti-corrosion additive would be a very good idea, but the mix ratios used in systems mixing Al and Cu would be overkill. i don't really want to estimate the minimum necessary, but the standard 90% water 10% additive mix should work fine, i would think.
 
No doubt. Yet my concern wasn't Silver/Copper but Silver/Aluminum.

Thanx for checking your chemistry books BTW. :) :cool:
Checking my metallurgy books, isn't the "Anodic Index" what we need to look
at here when talking about galvanic corrosion?
 
Susquehannock said:
Thanx for checking your chemistry books. :) :cool:
However, checking my metallurgy books, isn't the "Anodic Index" what we need to look
at here when talking about galvanic corrosion?
Click to expand...
both systems measure a similar quality.

regardless of what measuring system you use, i don't think that anyone will argue that the Cu in the loop will dissolve in preferance to the Ag.

however, if you add an anti-corrosive additive to the coolant mixture, you should be able to mix Ag and Cu without any problems.

i'm not saying that mixing galvanically active metals in the loop is optimal, however the auto industry has been mixing Al, Fe and Cu in the same cooling loop for years, and has developed coolant additives that can deal with the problem.

given that people are able to mix Al and Cu in the same loop, using a suitable coolant additive, withough a problem; i don't see the problem with using Cu and Ag in the same loop, if yout include a anti-corrosive coolant additive.

anything that is dex-cool rated should do the trick.

edit: i started typing my previous post before you post showed up. i'm not trying to pit galvanic potential against anodic potential. if you're thinking of picking up the block, and are THAT worried about corrosion, just stick an Al or Mg sacrificial anode in the loop and call it done.
 
Regarding corrosion... galvanic corrosion can only occur if there is a path for current to flow. It flows one way through the water, and presumably through the computer case to complete the circuit. Isolate the parts from the case and you break your circuit, thereby (in theory) preventing galvanic corrosion.
Also, aluminum is notorious for corroding in such systems because it has a penchant for pitting. Kind of the same way rust spreads - pitting and spalling. Some systems will passivate or form a solid layer of oxide which prevents further corrosion. I can't say right now if this will happen in the Ag-Al or Ag-Cu systems, but it's possible.
By the way, I wouldn't recommend using a sacrificial anode in a cooling loop, namely one where you have fluid passing through restrictive orifices which are prone to clogging. You wouldn't want chunks of your components entrained in the coolant, I don't think chunks of sacrificial anode would be much better.
 
DFI Daishi said:
both systems measure a similar quality.

regardless of what measuring system you use, i don't think that anyone will argue that the Cu in the loop will dissolve in preferance to the Ag.

however, if you add an anti-corrosive additive to the coolant mixture, you should be able to mix Ag and Cu without any problems.

i'm not saying that mixing galvanically active metals in the loop is optimal, however the auto industry has been mixing Al, Fe and Cu in the same cooling loop for years, and has developed coolant additives that can deal with the problem.

given that people are able to mix Al and Cu in the same loop, using a suitable coolant additive, withough a problem; i don't see the problem with using Cu and Ag in the same loop, if yout include a anti-corrosive coolant additive.

anything that is dex-cool rated should do the trick.

edit: i started typing my previous post before you post showed up. i'm not trying to pit galvanic potential against anodic potential. if you're thinking of picking up the block, and are THAT worried about corrosion, just stick an Al or Mg sacrificial anode in the loop and call it done.
Click to expand...

Well ... the "Anodic Index" is simply a galvanic series with the numeric values adjusted not
to a standard electrode, but to gold which = 0.00 volts.

Again, my concern wasn't the difference in potential between Copper/Silver but Silver/Aluminum.
Many people use Aluminum radiators afterall. If so a corrosion inhibitor would definitely
be advisable as you said.

In any event ... that block won't fit on my system - clip on heatsink. The reason this
thread interests me is because I intend to make my own waterblock eventually.
So any exchange of info here is a help. :cool:
 
Susquehannock said:
Well ... the "Anodic Index" is simply a galvanic series with the numeric values adjusted not to a standard electrode, but to gold which = 0.00 volts.

Again, my concern wasn't the difference in potential between Copper/Silver but Silver/Aluminum.

Many people use Aluminum radiators afterall. If so a corrosion inhibitor would definitely be advisable as you said.

In any event ... that block won't fit on my system - clip on heatsink. The reason this thread interests me is because I intend to make my own waterblock eventually. So any exchange of info here is a help. :cool:
Click to expand...
well, i'm glad that we are in agreement when it comes to the potential for corrosion when it comes to different metals in the same cooling loop.

in spite of what you have said, though, the rads most commonly used for computer water cooling are made using copper and brass, meaning that there is little, if any Al in the loop, depending on what waterblocks you choose to use.

the anti-corrosive additives are usually for people using aluminium topped waterblocks, rather than rads.

i'm pretty sure that the G5 mounting bracket is compatible with s462, even if the seller is not listing the block that he is selling as being so. most s462 boards have 4 retention holes surrounding the socket, which the storm uses for mounting.

if you really want to get some help with designing your block, you should fire up procooling forums.
 
zer0signal667 said:
By the way, I wouldn't recommend using a sacrificial anode in a cooling loop, namely one where you have fluid passing through restrictive orifices which are prone to clogging. You wouldn't want chunks of your components entrained in the coolant, I don't think chunks of sacrificial anode would be much better.
Click to expand...
jacket the sacrificial anode then?
 
zer0signal667 said:
Regarding corrosion... galvanic corrosion can only occur if there is a path for current to flow. It flows one way through the water, and presumably through the computer case to complete the circuit. Isolate the parts from the case and you break your circuit, thereby (in theory) preventing galvanic corrosion.
Click to expand...
Huh?! Not sure I understand your line of thinking there.
Galvanic corrosion occurs because two metals with dissimilar potentials are placed
within an electrolyte. In this instance coolant in the loop. How would isolating the parts from
the case effect that?

Also, aluminum is notorious for corroding in such systems because it has a penchant for pitting. Kind of the same way rust spreads - pitting and spalling.
Click to expand...
Are you saying Aluminum would corrode in a vacuum? It doesn't corrode just because it
has a "penchant for pitting"? ... A catalyst is required.

Hmmm, let's see if I can explain this galvanic corrosion issue correctly ......

In our imaginary cooling loop (which has Copper and Aluminum) the less noble
Aluminum becomes the anode(-), & the more noble Copper becomes the cathode(+).
And since we know electrons are negatively charged they flow toward the positively
charged material - copper.
Along with any negatively charged ions. Which is why the Aluminum corrodes faster in our
imaginary galvanic loop than it would all by itself.

DFI Daishi said:
jacket the sacrificial anode then?
Click to expand...
Seems to me a jacket would negate the desired effect.

Been a great discussion so far. And thanks for the advice on the ProCooling forums.
Have been registered there for some time so I know it's great resource for this stuff.
:cool:
 
Susquehannock said:
Huh?! Not sure I understand your line of thinking there.
Galvanic corrosion occurs because two metals with dissimilar potentials are placed within an electrolyte. In this instance coolant in the loop. How would isolating the parts from the case effect that?
Click to expand...
even if the two metals are withing the electrolyte, if there is no path by which the two metals can equalizer their electrical charge, electrostatic attraction in the anode-cathode pair will eventually counterbalance the electro-chemical potential between each metal part and the ions in the fluid.

if you start with a fluid that has very few ions which could potentially serve as charge carriers between the two metals, and make sure that the two metals are electrically isolated from each other, there is no long term galvanic reaction.


Susquehannock said:
Are you saying Aluminum would corrode in a vacuum? It doesn't corrode just because it has a "penchant for pitting"? ... A catalyst is required.

Hmmm, let's see if I can explain this galvanic corrosion issue correctly ......

In our hypothetical cooling loop (which has Copper and Aluminum) the less noble Aluminum becomes the anode(-), & the more noble Copper becomes the cathode(+). And since we know electrons are negatively charged they flow toward the positively charged material. Along with any negatively charged ions. Which is the Aluminum corrodes faster in our galvanic loop than it would all by itself.
Click to expand...
the penechant for pitting relates to the fact that some active metals (including Al in a air) form a coating of galvanically resistive oxide, as a result of electrostatic attraction. without the protection of an oxide coating, most any common metal will corrode away to nothing in shot order when exposed to earth's atmosphere.

the coolant in a cooling loop provides an ion-exchange path that is far more permittive than the of earth's atmosphere. if the coolant or an alternate electrical path provides a current path between the cathode and anode, the reaction will proceed as you have outlined.

if there is no current path, electrostatic potential will eventually stall the reaction that is electro-chemically favourable.


Susquehannock said:
Seems to me a jacket would negate the desired effect.

Been a great discussion so far. And thanks for the advice on the ProCooling forums.
Have been registered there for some time so I know it's great resource for this stuff.
:cool:
Click to expand...
make it a porous jacket, and it's all good.

i'm thinking something like the gold mesh that is used for reusable coffee filters.
 
CAD OC'er said:
I bet that's "theseeker's" auction. remember the guy that drives an aston martin....
Click to expand...

That is "theseekers" G5 he bought off eBay a few months ago. He bought it to see how it worked and has come up with a similar design that works considerably better.

I can see I have to get a hold of Cathar about my pure nickel topped G7. :D
 
Top Nurse said:
That is "theseekers" G5 he bought off eBay a few months ago. He bought it to see how it worked and has come up with a similar design that works considerably better.
Click to expand...
LMFAO :rolleyes:
 
nikhsub1 said:
LMFAO :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

So why do you say that? Do you believe that there aren't ways to make things better? Perhaps the design isues may be coming to the law of dinishing returns, but there may be other materials that work better than what is currently used, like say exotic materials?
 
Susquehannock said:
Huh?! Not sure I understand your line of thinking there.
Galvanic corrosion occurs because two metals with dissimilar potentials are placed
within an electrolyte. In this instance coolant in the loop. How would isolating the parts from
the case effect that?


Are you saying Aluminum would corrode in a vacuum? It doesn't corrode just because it
has a "penchant for pitting"? ... A catalyst is required.

Hmmm, let's see if I can explain this galvanic corrosion issue correctly ......

In our imaginary cooling loop (which has Copper and Aluminum) the less noble
Aluminum becomes the anode(-), & the more noble Copper becomes the cathode(+).
And since we know electrons are negatively charged they flow toward the positively
charged material - copper.
Along with any negatively charged ions. Which is why the Aluminum corrodes faster in our
imaginary galvanic loop than it would all by itself.
Click to expand...


My line of thinking comes from the definition of galvanic corrosion. Link here, and for the lazy:
A galvanic cell requires three elements:
* Two electrochemically dissimilar metals,
* An electrically conductive path between the two metals, and
* An electrolyte to allow the flow of metal ions.
Click to expand...


And what I was saying about aluminum is not that it will pit/corrode in any environment, but that in a corrosive environment, it has a tendency to pit (versus other corrosion mechanisms). I'll have more time later for explanation if needed, but now I'm off to work...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top