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RAGE from Carmack...

Stop whining. I've been playing Rage on PC for 5 hours and haven't had this much fun with any PC game in a long time.
 
blunt_eastwood said:
Aren't id relevant from an engine design perspective? And even if they have lost some prominence for the UT3 engine, idtech 5 seems poised to potentially be very popular for licensing.

Also, isn't the whole COD series still running on the Q3A engine??
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Their engines never held prominence after Tech 3. From Tech 4 on, the engine has only been used in a handful of AAA games. Tech 5 is not likely to change that. As a tech demo, Doom 3 was great at showcasing the engine and it was still only used in a handfull of AAA games. Rage, is not nearly as good a tech demo, and the engine does not appear to offer much over anything else we have seen in the last few years. I don't honestly see Tech5 going anywhere except other Zenimax titles, and perhaps a a handful of others, just like Tech 4.
 
I see Carmack's point. Consoles are cheap to buy and no upgrades for their lifetime until the next gen is out.
Out of everyone I know, colleagues/nephews/friends I'm the only one that is a PC Gamer. Everyone else either owns a 360 or a PS3.
Take my nephews for example, you think their parents would spend 3 times the console worth on a PC only to have their kids ask for a video card upgrade 6 months down the road.
That idea would not even compute in their brain.
So they just went out and bought a PS3, two of my nephews have a PS3 and one has a 360.
So the console market is bigger and companies are here to make money first and foremost.
 
What I don't understand, and I'm sure Carmack understands this perfectly.

Is if you design your game to be bleeding edge, people will want bleeding edge. Doom and Quake back in the days took the PC into new territory. People seen it, people wanted it, people made Carmack rich because of it, and people bought computers which could play these games. It was the talk of everybody, those who played PC games, and those who played consoles. Quake on the PC was light years better than Quake on the Nintendo 64.

20 years later. We have the reversing happening... Companies do not make things bleeding edge, design for systems 6+ years old, sales suffer on the bleeding edge platform. Then they blame the PC "There is no market. Consoles have a much larger usebase. There is piracy. Whine whine whine."

Hello? Am I missing something? People would buy it on PC if it was worth buying on a PC. Nobody wants to buy a PC game with modern tech that was designed, scaled, built for a platform years obsolete. I'd pirate it too... (I don't pirate, but I can see why people do, whos going to pay $59.99 for something that should have come out in 2004)

I no longer buy video games from companies which do so. I only buy games that were designed for the PC in mind. I will buy BF3 even if I do not like it nor ever play it, just to tell EA the PC platform is still relevant.

Something Carmack knows. He knows its still relevant, and he knows the money made from BF3 will likely exceed any profits made from Rage.
 
nerdydesi said:
Why didn't these industry honchos like Carmack/Yerli/Blezinski, etc. crap all over the PC during the PS1/PS2 days?
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I think it's because AAA titles cost a lot more to develop these days. Back then you could make a big name game at a reasonable cost and make a lot of money on the PC. Nowadays with games costing 10s of millions of dollars to make, they need that console market to maintain their former profit margins.
 
I stopped caring what Carmack has to say since Doom3 was released. He is irrelevant to modern PC gaming IMO.
 
Magnus said:
"We do not see id as a leading company for games,"
FTFY
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exactly, carmakc's opinions mean nothing to me, i do not buy id games because they are just the same crap they were making 15 years ago with fancier visuals. ID has done nothing for gaming since quake 3 and I'm willing to bet the numbers on rage wont be nearly as high as they were hoping for any of the platforms they released it for simply because it is just another single player centric fps. The companies that talk about revolutionizing things are typically the ones that never do. Id's time is long since past and I really don't understand what all the fuss is about this guy, people regard him like another Gabe Newell but when was the last time Carmack did any thing that really changed the gaming landscape.
 
Carmack is just speaking the truth. The PC is not the leading platform for gaming. That's a big giant "duh" for everyone, including Captain Obvious.

If you had been following ID for the past 6 years and everything they were doing and saying in public, this should be no surprise to you. I gave up on ID years ago.

What is the last good game they've actually made for the PC? Quake II and Doom 3 weren't as great as people remember them. Q3: Arena was just a multiplayer tech demo for selling the engine. Why do people keep expecting ID to make a great PC game? They haven't done so for 13 years.
 
I think the biggest thing PC gamers have an advantage over consoles is eye-candy... and most people either don't see that much of an overall difference, or don't care, especially considering the amount of money it costs to buy three screens and a beefy video card and PC...

When Doom and Quake came out, they were not just revolutionary in terms of graphics, they were also providing relatively new GAMEPLAY experiences. You couldn't close to that on consoles. Nowadays the difference between pc and consoles aren't much different in terms of what kind of gameplay they can offer. Not to the normal every-day person anyways.

Simply put, id failed to bring much of anything new with Rage other then non-repeating textures which happen to NOT make all THAT much of a difference compared to other modern games, and in some huge cases actually looks worse... so of course it didn't do so well. No visual improvement and no new gameplay.
 
Oh, and take Crysis for example. That was relatively big jump in graphics, but did it make lots of folks go out and buy a PC and forget about consoles? No, not really... surely there are more examples of advanced pc games not delivering whatever many of us are hoping for... a console-killer app... I just don't see it happening anytime soon.
 
C'mon people, use common sense. Do you REALLY think they should make the 3rd best selling platform their first priority?
The PC version is still easily better than either console version.
There's nothing wrong with saying you didn't like the game, but the fact is - that's the game they clearly wanted to make and you just don't like it.
Their decision to focus on the platforms that will outsell the PC version is common sense.
 
It's much easier to develop for a console then port to P.C. than it is to develop for a P.C. and port to a console. In order to get acceptable framerates on a console, you have to work very closely with the low-level abilities of the specific hardware because of its inadequate nature.
 
Domingo said:
C'mon people, use common sense. Do you REALLY think they should make the 3rd best selling platform their first priority?
The PC version is still easily better than either console version.
There's nothing wrong with saying you didn't like the game, but the fact is - that's the game they clearly wanted to make and you just don't like it.
Their decision to focus on the platforms that will outsell the PC version is common sense.
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I appreciate you trying to bring people back to reality.

People in this forum have a really difficult time understanding the difference between lead revenue platforms and lead development platforms. Carmack admitted that with Rage, consoles were the lead in both those categories, but that it was a mistake to not use the PC as the lead development platform. Doom 4 is going to be much better graphically than Rage.
lobski2 said:
Don't worry guys, Kotick will save PC gaming soon.
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Oh you mean when they bring Diablo 3 to consoles and realize how much money they can make, then start making console games going forth?
NExUS1g said:
It's much easier to develop for a console then port to P.C. than it is to develop for a P.C. and port to a console.
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That's not true at all. Developers have always found it easier going PC->Console.
ZaC851 said:
then you've must not of played a pc game in a very long time.
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I think the obvious thing a PC gamer see's with it is the lack luster graphics. But another part that bothers me is the obvious disc swap scene. PC gamers are forced into a small, closed off world that is separated by cut scenes and disc swaps, in order to allow this game to fit on a console disc. At least though, PC gamers had access to 1-9 for weapons and F1-F4 for quick items, rather than forcing us into the 4 weapon limit that console has.
 
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I can't find the source, but wasn't he the one that said something along the lines of wishing they would have focused more on PC? Something about PCs being much more powerful than consoles and it was a mistake developing for consoles? Can someone find that?
 
bigdogchris said:
That's not true at all. Developers have always found it easier going PC->Console.
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It's not nearly that cut and dry. The difficulty of porting depends on the engine, the development tools, the expertise of the people involved, and many other factors.
 
I still feel that the PC gaming community is suffering from "older child syndrome". Face it, we've been "dethroned" and because of it, are getting more and more bitter.
 
NExUS1g said:
Anecdotal argument. Could you provide verifiable facts?
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I read a lot online. I've also read that some developers also believe starting on PS3, then porting to 360 is easier than the other way around. That's why many new console games use PS3 as the lead platform.

It's funny though that you feel it's important enough for me to provide evidence of the thing I claimed and read about, yet you did not do it for your claim in the original post. Is your word any better than mine?
 
bigdogchris said:
I read a lot online. I've also read that some developers also believe starting on PS3, then porting to 360 is easier than the other way around. That's why many new console games use PS3 as the lead platform.

It's funny though that you feel it's important enough for me to provide evidence of the thing I claimed and read about, yet you did not do it for your claim in the original post. Is your word any better than mine?
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I gave verifiable evidence in my argument. However, the comment, "Developers have always found it easier going PC->Console," is not verifiable evidence -- it's second-hand testimony with no facts to back it up.
 
SCSI-Terminator said:
I still feel that the PC gaming community is suffering from "older child syndrome". Face it, we've been "dethroned" and because of it, are getting more and more bitter.
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I think that the P.C. gaming community gets frustrated with controls and gameplay that doesn't feel natural using a mouse and keyboard, but at the same time they would put themselves at a disadvantage to use a console controller. Take Call of Duty: Black Ops as an example. Controlling the gunships and Huey are simply a pain using a mouse and keyboard, but a controller would put you at a distinct advantage in the rest of the game.
 
I don't give a shit if they develop on the console then port to the PC or the other way along as long as they put out a quality PC game. You console apologists need to STFU and go to the XBOX Live or PS3 forums to stroke your egos. If developers are going to create a game on the pc platform then I expect a fairly bug free game with higher quality graphics than consoles. They don't develop games for the PC to lose money so some publishers must think it's worth the effort. We all know consoles are were the money is at but that doesn't excuse a sloppy pc port...
 
Control issues and broken games are legitimate gripes. The thing is, threads like this rarely involve gripes like that.
It usually comes down to "developers should focus on the PC ahead of the consoles" which is simply just not smart when 75%+ of their sales and money will be coming from the consoles.
It doesn't excuse id's bungle of their config options on launch day, nor does it excuse stuff like Dead Island where the launch game wasn't even final.

What it does excuse is PC gamers getting the same content as the console version. Stop expecting extras, 500 menu options that have to be accounted for across a dozen different drivers, additional (exclusive) features, etc.
If they're looking to add extra features for a niche, at that point they might as well add Kinect, Move, and Wii-Mote extra features, too.

When you're getting a multiplatform game, we have the right to expect something that works, and delivers the same experience as the other versions. Our "bonus" is being able to run things at higher resolutions and our choice of controls. If it isn't actually broken, then your gripe is with the game itself.
 
Domingo said:
Control issues and broken games are legitimate gripes. The thing is, threads like this rarely involve gripes like that.
It usually comes down to "developers should focus on the PC ahead of the consoles" which is simply just not smart when 75%+ of their sales and money will be coming from the consoles.
It doesn't excuse id's bungle of their config options on launch day, nor does it excuse stuff like Dead Island where the launch game wasn't even final.

What it does excuse is PC gamers getting the same content as the console version. Stop expecting extras, 500 menu options that have to be accounted for across a dozen different drivers, additional (exclusive) features, etc.
If they're looking to add extra features for a niche, at that point they might as well add Kinect, Move, and Wii-Mote extra features, too.

When you're getting a multiplatform game, we have the right to expect something that works, and delivers the same experience as the other versions. Our "bonus" is being able to run things at higher resolutions and our choice of controls. If it isn't actually broken, then your gripe is with the game itself.
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Don't forget modding. That's a major contributor to the longevity, replayability and continued sales of legacy games, but the half-assed (if you'll pardon the expression) mod tools included with Black Ops was just another issue in a long line of failures proving that if you can't do it right, don't do it at all.
 
bigdogchris said:
Oh you mean when they bring Diablo 3 to consoles and realize how much money they can make, then start making console games going forth?
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I think he meant that sarcastically (look at what Activision has done to Call of Duty and Guitar Hero), and Kotick doesn't have anything to do with Diablo 3 -- He's the CEO of Blizzard-Activision and Pearce and Morhaime still very much run their own company in Blizzard Entertainment.
 
Gnasher said:
Truth or not, he is still a shallow sell out.
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For real, how are you going to turn your back on what made you what you are today.

$ That's how and its a sad sad fact we have to deal with more often than not.
 
Money talks. Simple as that. And anyone that says "i would never sell out" has never been offered a bunch of money lmao
 
SCSI-Terminator said:
I still feel that the PC gaming community is suffering from "older child syndrome". Face it, we've been "dethroned" and because of it, are getting more and more bitter.
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But consoles have always been king of the hill. When you were growing up which did you game on more, your Nintendo or your Commodore?

I don't own any of the new consoles now though. I might pick up a PS3 for Twisted Metal though.
 
Zero82z said:
Businesses trying to make more money? What is this world coming to?
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Hey making money is fine and dandy. Alienating your fanbase isn't cool and certainly isn't cool for Public Relations i.e this thread. But then again, I'm sure he has "new" fans now.

Which is kinda worse, in a sense he pretty much kicked his "doom fans" to the curb and forgot his humble beginnings. Large amounts of the green stuff makes you loose sight of where you came from and how you got to where you are today. At least for some.
 
Zero82z said:
Businesses trying to make more money? What is this world coming to?
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If every artist thought like that the only art we would get would be pretty flower water colors that match your living room decor. Fuck that shit. If money is your No. 1 priority then you are doing it for all the wrong reasons.
 
Ron1jed said:
Money talks. Simple as that. And anyone that says "i would never sell out" has never been offered a bunch of money lmao
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There have been plenty of people turn down money because it conflicts with their interest or integrity. Carmack is not one of them.
 
Krenum said:
But consoles have always been king of the hill. When you were growing up which did you game on more, your Nintendo or your Commodore?

I don't own any of the new consoles now though. I might pick up a PS3 for Twisted Metal though.
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i gamed on my computer more, i wasn't allowed to have consoles as a kid, and my uncle upgraded his computer once a year since he got free parts so i always got the hand me down stuff. first console i got was an SNES like 5 years after they had already come out. even then the only 2 games i played were donkey kong and mario brothers.
 
Judging by Rage, then it's no loss.

Very sad that the once godlike Carmack has fallen so low in my estimation.

I never thought I would say that about the creator of Doom and Quake!
 
Krenum said:
But consoles have always been king of the hill. When you were growing up which did you game on more, your Nintendo or your Commodore?
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For racing, sports, fighting, and platformer games you are absolutely right. But PC gamers are bitter because one of their traditional mainstays the FPS has shifted to console. PCs used to be dominant in that area. Fortunately strategy games suck with a controller so that genre has mostly stayed put to this point.
 
Still boggles my mind as to why they don't allow keyboard/mouse on consoles... obviously for multiplayer it would be an issue, but only if you allowed the two controller types to play against each other... this is the biggest reason I won't play console FPS games. That and of course the graphics, but they don't bother me nearly as much
 
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