R600 Date

[drizzt81]

wait what exactly is that proving? that AMD bought ATI?

It's not proving anything. I am merely providing the means for people to find the numbers that are frequently demanded from a somewhat reliable source. While both sides are certainly going to post biased information on their financial situation, they both are bound by the limits set by Sarbanes-Oxley. A person in this thread asked for "proof" and I made accessible to both arguing parties the means to provide said proof.

I did not take any sides. Nor did I provide proof, since I did not make any arguments about either AMD or nVidia's performance. To be honest, I just don't have the free time to make a sound argument. And since I don't want to be caught making some wild statments about either companies' performance based on my skewed and incomplete view of the industry I'd rather not say anything.

 

[That's_Corporate]

just bc the high end cards don't produce the most money, they project an image. faster cards makes the company appear to have a better range... having the best performance card is a marketing thing as well as a money thing =)

I hope you realize that not many people are like us (video cards are our pr0n). Very small amount of people do what we do (go to every review site the moment the press gets their hands on a card). The people at [H] and other forums are few and far in between when you talk about the consumer populus. Therefore not many people even know which is the absolute fastest. Many buy due to brand loyalty.

And, you know what? I don't blame them one bit.
Think about it. Even if one card beats another by 5 fps (55 vs. 60 fps), you think that consumer really cares? He/she wouldn't even be able to tell the difference.

 

[phide]

I think the money they're making from the 8800GTX/GTS is actually quite small when you compare it to the sheer size of a company like nVidia. I don't think the sheer performance crown for 1-2 enthusiasts cards actually helps the company significantly financially.

I think the current goal of the 8800 series is to get the G8x project, as a whole, into profitability by recouping costs spent on R&D. Because there's a strong lack of direct competition in this area, NVIDIA has the ability to leverage this lack of direct competition by setting prices to AIBs high. It's still possible that NVIDIA is stipulating MSRPs as well.

The ultra-high end market isn't supreme, but it's still a good market, I think. The high end units are typically the gateway to more profitable markets. The design of G80 as a whole determines how well NVIDIA can feasibly do in this market without excess spending.

To assume that the 8800 series is not "hurting" AMD in the high end market is completely nonsensical. AMD may be feeling very little pain, but your own summarization of the relative lack of importance of the high end market is the catch-22 of your argument. The "crown" is advantageous from both a corporate image perspective and from a profitability perspective, even though profitability is never directly tied to the crown. The crown gives NVIDIA a spotlight, and investors follow spotlights. If you think that AMD doesn't want a part of this market, just look at the X1950 Uber Edition packages. To me, that product is indicative of ATi's attempt to grab a portion of that market away from the 8800 series.

Like you said, the best money's in the low end, but that doesn't mean the high end is altogether worthless.

 

[That's_Corporate]

Like you said, the best money's in the low end, but that doesn't mean the high end is altogether worthless.

No. But people here (some anyways) equate absolute high end enthusiast cards with company superiority.

ie. ATI has the absolute faster card so it means that ATI is 'pwning' nVidia.

Which is of course, false.

People put the most weight on the segment which matters the least.

 

[That's_Corporate]

To assume that the 8800 series is not "hurting" AMD in the high end market is completely nonsensical. AMD may be feeling very little pain, but your own summarization of the relative lack of importance of the high end market is the catch-22 of your argument. The "crown" is advantageous from both a corporate image perspective and from a profitability perspective, even though profitability is never directly tied to the crown.

Why? I'm not arguing FOR ATI and AGAINST nVidia. I'm simply stating facts. High end may matter to us, cause the zealots get to say that 'their' company is the best, but respective companies could actually care less about the video card forum wars.

 

[phide]

I agree, but you're putting a lot of emphasis on the consumer perspective. The investor perspective is, in many ways, more important than the consumer perspective. I won't pretend to understand why most investors make the decisions they do, but I'm fairly certain that having dominant niche products is fairly important in the eyes of a potential investor. I think it's almost akin to nations having a strong and technologically advanced military. Even if zero soldiers are out on the front lines, it still projects a strong image.

Right now, you could say NVIDIA is "pwning" AMD, but there is a long string of qualifiers that you have to put after that statement. AMD is also "pwning" NVIDIA in some ways, but you need an equally long string of qualifiers to make that statement somewhat accurate. If you want to drop all the qualifiers, you really end up saying that both NVIDIA and AMD are doing pretty well. That's about as finely you can slice it without making it complicated.

High end may matter to us, cause the zealots get to say that 'their' company is the best, but respective companies could actually care less about the video card forum wars.

It really isn't about competitors. It boils down predominately to stock prices. If it matters to consumers, it matters to investors, and it's beneficial for stock prices. If the competitor doesn't have a competitive product in the market, it's impactful, albeit possibly on a small scale. The forum wars are also fairly irrelevant. We certainly don't dictate the status of the market, and the products don't change if we should suddenly vanish.

 

[That's_Corporate]

I agree, but you're putting a lot of emphasis on the consumer perspective. The investor perspective is, in many ways, more important than the consumer perspective. I won't pretend to understand why most investors make the decisions they do, but I'm fairly certain that having dominant niche products is fairly important in the eyes of a potential investor. I think it's almost akin to nations having a strong and technologically advanced military. Even if zero soldiers are out on the front lines, it still projects a strong image.

Right now, you could say NVIDIA is "pwning" AMD, but there is a long string of qualifiers that you have to put after that statement. AMD is also "pwning" NVIDIA in some ways, but you need an equally long string of qualifiers to make that statement somewhat accurate. If you want to drop all the qualifiers, you really end up saying that both NVIDIA and AMD are doing pretty well. That's about as finely you can slice it without making it complicated.


It really isn't about competitors. It boils down predominately to stock prices. If it matters to consumers, it matters to investors, and it's beneficial for stock prices. If the competitor doesn't have a competitive product in the market, it's impactful, albeit possibly on a small scale.

I invest, and I would not invest in the company with the best high end segment. I would invest in the company with the best low end segment.

 

[That's_Corporate]

It really isn't about competitors. It boils down predominately to stock prices. If it matters to consumers, it matters to investors, and it's beneficial for stock prices. If the competitor doesn't have a competitive product in the market, it's impactful, albeit possibly on a small scale. The forum wars are also fairly irrelevant. We certainly don't dictate the status of the market, and the products don't change if we should suddenly vanish.

Correct. If it matters to consumers, it matters to inevestors. And there are more consumers in the low end, than in the elite enthusiast range. You're exactly right.

 

[Anarchist4000]

What do you think matters more to investors? Having the performance crown with a product or actually selling those products? It could almost be argued that the 8800's are in the middle of a paper launch because the drivers are leaving something the be desired and the OEMs(likely because of the drivers) won't even touch the cards. How much market penetration and pressure could be put on AMD when most of the major OEMs don't sell the G80? Investors would be much more concerned with any problem they hear of with the products than how they actually perform. With the lack of drivers and OEM sales I'd say investors would be rather worried right now. More so because if the benchmarks are ran on Vista they likely just lost the performance crown.

 

[Jodiuh]

Very small amount of people do what we do (go to every review site the moment the press gets their hands on a card).

I hear we're getting our own island soon!

In all seriousness, I normally upgrade once a year or whenever the "card du jour" pulls a 50%-100% increase in performance over my previous card. For the most part is equates to selling my old guy for $250-$300 and throwing in another $300 per year to keep the framerates up. It's been working since I sold off my xtra 1MB VRAM chip from a Cirrus Logic chipset on a Packard Bell...for some Glide action.

 

[theystolemyname]

What sort of performance advantage do you all think justifies the R600 coming out a good 4 months after G80?

Personally, I'd sell off my 8800gtx if the flagship R600 card could manage 25% better performance in real world conditions in games at a res of 1680x1050.

 

[quadnad]

What sort of performance advantage do you all think justifies the R600 coming out a good 4 months after G80?

Personally, I'd sell off my 8800gtx if the flagship R600 card could manage 25% better performance in real world conditions in games at a res of 1680x1050.

It needs to outdo G80 obviously, but more importantly must arrive with relatively competent drivers.

 

[Shinryu]

In my oppinion the most important thing for either AMD or Nvidia is the low end market cards, as everyone said, they make the most money, BUT what makes alot of money today is the hype about climate change.

The R600 using 250 watts just for the GPU alone is ludicrus, the R600 has to do 50% more better imo to even up the extra power usage it uses.

And Nvidia are doing better in the low end market imo, in the UK laptops and PC's mostly have Nvidia GPU's due to less power requirments meaning either cheaper CPU's for pc's and longer lasting battery for laptops.

 

[Anarchist4000]

Where was the power usage of R600 ever mentioned. I know there were some max usage scenarios given what the power connectors are capable of but that doesn't mean it will use that much power. Plus given that the R600 die is roughly the same size as G80, uses a smaller processes and has GDDR4 I'd guess power usage could be equal if not less than G80. Any significant difference would likely come from the differences in memory.

 

[GoldenTiger]

In my oppinion the most important thing for either AMD or Nvidia is the low end market cards, as everyone said, they make the most money, BUT what makes alot of money today is the hype about climate change.

The R600 using 250 watts just for the GPU alone is ludicrus, the R600 has to do 50% more better imo to even up the extra power usage it uses.

And Nvidia are doing better in the low end market imo, in the UK laptops and PC's mostly have Nvidia GPU's due to less power requirments meaning either cheaper CPU's for pc's and longer lasting battery for laptops.

Yea-bu-wha??? I don't believe I have ever seen these power figures anywhere.

Unless the R600 doubled the G80's performance (which is *my* standard criteria for switching cards), I'm not buying it. However, anyone who hasn't already jumped on a G80 by that time would basically want to buy it unless it stunk driver-wise if it was roughly even with or better than the G80. I just don't think waiting is worth it in computers really, as there's almost always something much better "just around the corner".

 

[ManicOne]

All I can say is well done to GoldenTiger for completely derailing this thread. This is an R600 thread, in the ATI subsection. There is no mention of R600 vs 8800 in the title. Argue with me all you want, but its pretty obvious you have a pro-NV agenda.

I hope a mod is looking at this (and every other R600 related) thread. You need to be gagged.


EDIT: Final response on the matter too. You can keep arguing, but you'll be arguing with others.

 

[Jodiuh]

...as there's almost always something much better "just around the corner".

And yet we torture ourselves w/ interweb soaps.

Normally, the 2x perf increase takes close to a year, but the 7800GTX-->X1900XT had that w/ FEAR only 6 months in.

 

[Caffeinated]

Why? I'm not arguing FOR ATI and AGAINST nVidia. I'm simply stating facts. High end may matter to us, cause the zealots get to say that 'their' company is the best, but respective companies could actually care less about the video card forum wars.

I'm not going to debate points here, but I will say in all honesty, That's_Corporate, it's a little late now for you to be saying that you aren't arguing for ATI.

That's completely acceptable since this is the ATI forum and this is the R600 thread, but let's at least put our reality hats back on when posting.

Again though, this *is* an R600 thread, in the ATI forum, so it is to be expected that there will be people posting in here that favor ATI products.

 

[Caffeinated]

What sort of performance advantage do you all think justifies the R600 coming out a good 4 months after G80?

Personally, I'd sell off my 8800gtx if the flagship R600 card could manage 25% better performance in real world conditions in games at a res of 1680x1050.

It needs to outdo G80 obviously, but more importantly must arrive with relatively competent drivers.

Right now, to be honest R600 needs to work in Vista, as all of you have pointed out, for it to thrash the Geforce 8800 GTX. A lot of Vista Geforce users are very unhappy right now, particularly the owners of high end cards like the GX2, which has no SLI drivers, 7 series SLI owners, and Geforce 8800 series owners that have paid a premium for hardware with less than stellar drivers.

If the R600 actually has working stable drivers, well they have won the race where it matters - functionality.

DX9 is a totally different story. DX9 is going to still be with us for quite a while, and is equally important that the R600 be hellishly fast in DX9.

 

[Trimlock]

I think my "lost ground" comment struck a rather ... strange debate.

To me having the flagship out is important, alot of people make their entire judgement off of the faster card, if their flagship cards beat out the competitions flag ship cards then their mid range beats out their mid range, so lets go with company X, to me it seems logical, with past competition between ATI and Nvidia it obviously isn't.

I'm not going to say ATI (AMD) is hurting from this, they're doing well in sales, and have no complaints, infact thats probably the reason why they aren't doing a rush to the market tactic that ATI typically did with their high end and offer a rather small amount of product. THIS does hurt the company in the long run, I'm no specialist when it comes to a companies revinue earnings, and I will not pretend to, how ever if we look at 3DFX and how it effected them in the long with no real attempt to strike at competition early and be the first to market their shining cards we can see competition dwindle and be stuck with releases that only offer 20-30% speed increases.

When ATI came serious to the game and offered solid 2nd choices such as the 8500, it forced a whole new era of GPU speeds upon us, we saw a release of 50% speed increases with a much more emphasis on image quality, ever since then new GPU released since then have steadily increased, the R420's and NV40's were about 60-70% more capable then previous, the R520 and G70's were more then that, and look at the G80.

What I want is the card to be released, if it has the driver problem at the same time they share the doubt and blame for that, it would later then be shrugged off and forgotten, if it's released late it better be one hell of a gem, not for sales but for their public image and thats what matters, if that goes then the company will eventually go as well

but this is all speculation from an arm chair Quarterback, I just like ATI because it seems every new release we get something new and exciting and they always try something new, Nvidia does the same thing but the topic always goes into OC'ing and "imagine that"

 

[Manny Calavera]

To assume that the 8800 series is not "hurting" AMD in the high end market is completely nonsensical. AMD may be feeling very little pain...

Nvidia isnt the one causing the real pain here,they are merely holding AMDati in a 'headlock' of sorts,the real pain thats being felt by AMDati is coming from the school bully that is Intel. And between the two of them,they will send AMDati to
the hospital.Its a dirty fight !

The Conroe was the baseball bat to the back of the head,just before summer break of 06,the 8800 was Nvidia bringing a howitzer to what ATI thought would be a fist fight.

 

[Shinryu]

Yea-bu-wha??? I don't believe I have ever seen these power figures anywhere.

Unless the R600 doubled the G80's performance (which is *my* standard criteria for switching cards), I'm not buying it. However, anyone who hasn't already jumped on a G80 by that time would basically want to buy it unless it stunk driver-wise if it was roughly even with or better than the G80. I just don't think waiting is worth it in computers really, as there's almost always something much better "just around the corner".

Ah there was some other post on the forums saying it uses that much power, I would hope it doesent but from the look of the specs of it I wont be surprised.

 

[That's_Corporate]

I'm not going to debate points here, but I will say in all honesty, That's_Corporate, it's a little late now for you to be saying that you aren't arguing for ATI.

That's completely acceptable since this is the ATI forum and this is the R600 thread, but let's at least put our reality hats back on when posting.

Again though, this *is* an R600 thread, in the ATI forum, so it is to be expected that there will be people posting in here that favor ATI products.

Oh really?
I'm a business man more than anything, and as a business man, i'll fully admit that even if R600 performs EXTREMELY well and blows G80 out of the water (which it won't), I'll still say that it will do little for ATI/AMD's success.

Don't believe me? Feel free to PM me, but I'm not discussing your opinion of me in a public thread where it has no place.

 

[spaceman]

his point is an old one. the high end cards are a niche market whose sales have little impact on the overall health of the company. the important sales are in the mass production units.

so yeah, ati is probably being smart if they are really trying to get it right and releasing the card when it's ready for prime time.

me? I just hope it drives prices down so that I can afford a dual card config of some sort. I know my 8800GTS isn't sufficient for next gen games at 1920x1200.

 

[GoldenTiger]

Ah there was some other post on the forums saying it uses that much power, I would hope it doesent but from the look of the specs of it I wont be surprised.

Looks like it's all but confirmed now . This is not a good thing for the market.

 

[GoldenTiger]

All I can say is well done to GoldenTiger for completely derailing this thread. This is an R600 thread, in the ATI subsection. There is no mention of R600 vs 8800 in the title. Argue with me all you want, but its pretty obvious you have a pro-NV agenda.

I hope a mod is looking at this (and every other R600 related) thread. You need to be gagged.


EDIT: Final response on the matter too. You can keep arguing, but you'll be arguing with others.

Personal attacks noted, but not really cared about.

As far as your ACTUAL points, they're called *DISCUSSION* forums for a reason, not "preach to the choir" sessions. Even if I did have an "agenda" one way or the other, what would it matter so long as it's my own opinion? (I don't, despite what you may interpret it as, but some might interpret you as having a pro-ATI agenda in the same way you view my thoughts). No, the *title* doesn't have G80 vs. R600, but the thread's content on the very first page begins making comparisons to it, and since it's talking initially about whether people should wait or buy now (when's the R600 coming out, R600 date?), it is 100% valid. Have fun steaming for absolutely no reason over a friendly discussion on an internet forum, though !

 

[That's_Corporate]

Personal attacks noted, but not really cared about.

As far as your ACTUAL points, they're called *DISCUSSION* forums for a reason, not "preach to the choir" sessions. Even if I did have an "agenda" one way or the other, what would it matter so long as it's my own opinion? (I don't, despite what you may interpret it as, but some might interpret you as having a pro-ATI agenda in the same way you view my thoughts). No, the *title* doesn't have G80 vs. R600, but the thread's content on the very first page begins making comparisons to it, and since it's talking initially about whether people should wait or buy now (when's the R600 coming out, R600 date?), it is 100% valid. Have fun steaming for absolutely no reason over a friendly discussion on an internet forum, though !

Why are you even looking at a R600 thread when you already said you're not interested in buying one?

 

[GoldenTiger]

Why are you even looking at a R600 thread when you already said you're not interested in buying one?

I have already explained that, and even if I hadn't, one could assume that I was doing it to keep up with tech (which I like to do as well). The real reason I am though is because I want to see when it is coming and how it shapes up, as I have a 90-day step-up on my eVGA 8800GTS... if the R600 turns out well, yippee, I get a nice card to step-up to when nVidia refreshes. If not, well, I know not to expect that. No need to get so defensive over my "sacrelige of the precious R600 thread" .

 

[That's_Corporate]

I have already explained that, and even if I hadn't, one could assume that I was doing it to keep up with tech (which I like to do as well). The real reason I am though is because I want to see when it is coming and how it shapes up, as I have a 90-day step-up on my eVGA 8800GTS... if the R600 turns out well, yippee, I get a nice card to step-up to when nVidia refreshes. If not, well, I know not to expect that. No need to get so defensive over my "sacrelige of the precious R600 thread" .

So... shouldn't you be posting in a thread about the nVidia refresh then? You won't find any information about that here I'm afraid.
Just trying to help you out, bro. You seem lost.

 

[Caffeinated]

Oh really?
I'm a business man more than anything, and as a business man, i'll fully admit that even if R600 performs EXTREMELY well and blows G80 out of the water (which it won't), I'll still say that it will do little for ATI/AMD's success.

Don't believe me? Feel free to PM me, but I'm not discussing your opinion of me in a public thread where it has no place.

I'm not looking for an argument, nor to make any personal attacks. I didn't think suggesting that you favor ATI products over nVidia products in the R600 thread in the ATI forum was an insult, but if it did insult you in some way, my apologies. That was not my intent whatsoever.

I took the opportunity to apologize publicly in this public thread because for the most part, I try to avoid offending people. If this wasn't an acceptable action to you, then yes, we can discuss it via PM.

 

[That's_Corporate]

I'm not looking for an argument, nor to make any personal attacks. I didn't think suggesting that you favor ATI products over nVidia products in the R600 thread in the ATI forum was an insult, but if it did insult you in some way, my apologies. That was not my intent whatsoever.

I took the opportunity to apologize publicly in this public thread because for the most part, I try to avoid offending people. If this wasn't an acceptable action to you, then yes, we can discuss it via PM.

No, it's not acceptable.
I need you to apologize to me, over PM, using nothing but consonants.

 

[Caffeinated]

ygpm

Don't make me mad, or I'll send vowels next time

 

[Silus]

Why are you even looking at a R600 thread when you already said you're not interested in buying one?

I won't buy it either, but I'm interested in it, just like I was in the 8800 cards when they were released.
Being this a forum, I would think anyone can give their opinion about an upcoming product. Being a "rumor" thread, we can only speculate and you, me, GoldenTiger or anyone else, is no different.

 

[That's_Corporate]

I won't buy it either, but I'm interested in it, just like I was in the 8800 cards when they were released.
Being this a forum, I would think anyone can give their opinion about an upcoming product. Being a "rumor" thread, we can only speculate and you, me, GoldenTiger or anyone else, is no different.

Funny how you never see people do the same in nVidia threads though. Probably cause ATI owners tend to be more mature and older and wiser and have cooler hair and more successful in life so they don't need 'trade up' programs cause saving money is for the poor.

 

[That's_Corporate]

ygpm

Don't make me mad, or I'll send vowels next time

LOL

 

[Silus]

Funny how you never see people do the same in nVidia threads though. Probably cause ATI owners are more mature.

If you really believe that, you're no different than any other !!!!!!. ATI, NVIDIA or any other company's !!!!!!s are the same and they are the exact opposite of "mature".

 

[That's_Corporate]

If you really believe that, you're no different than any other !!!!!!. ATI, NVIDIA or any other company's !!!!!!s are the same and they are the exact opposite of "mature".

Can you link me to an ATI guy crapping on an nVidia 8900 thread then?

PS: Please edit your quote of my post. I edited to fully reflect the truth.

 

[spint3]

heh, saving money is for the poor. that made me chuckle.

 

[That's_Corporate]

heh, saving money is for the poor. that made me chuckle.

It's kinda true

 

[GoldenTiger]

It's kinda true

Not at all, if you're wasting all your money like water, you're not going to accumulate any no matter how much your income is .