Pounce or wait for Nehalem?

S

shaden79

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how much longer until i will be able to order a Nehalem processor? i mean i think i can stand 2 or 3 more months on my 3.0 Ghz p4 but just barely. nor do i really want to buy a new processor and mother board right now to find myself with an outdated processor on an outdated motherboard in matter of months. ever since i switched out my nvidia 6600 for a ATI 4870 and my old crt for a nice new 24" monitor, i have been just watching my cpu climb to 100% over and over and over again. how much longer till i can get some relief? what should i do? buy or wait?

all your help is extremely appreciated,

Shaden79

P.S. my 3+ year old case is beginning to deafen me as well so do you happen to have any recommendations on a really sleek and simple looking case that would cool really well and at the same time be totally silent? my current computer will actually heat my room during the winter months if i over clock it slightly.
 
I think it depends on two factors in your case:

1. Are you willing to pay a premium for a Nehalem CPU and Motherboard when released?
2. Can you wait 3 months?

If not for either of these, then I suggest just buying now. I hear these new Nehalem CPUs will have at lease a 20% increase from current Intel processors. Also, if you bought now and you wanted to upgrade to Nehalem later you will need to buy a new motherboard.
 
I was under the impression it was going to be notably more than a 20% increase. This isn't a die-shrink, this is a architectural evolution.

I'd heard 80% faster, based on early numbers. Of course, the problem then becomes "um...what's out now that I'll even notice major gains in performance with this chip on?".

~S
 
silent hero said:
I think it depends on two factors in your case:

1. Are you willing to pay a premium for a Nehalem CPU and Motherboard when released?
2. Can you wait 3 months?

If not for either of these, then I suggest just buying now. I hear these new Nehalem CPUs will have at lease a 20% increase from current Intel processors. Also, if you bought now and you wanted to upgrade to Nehalem later you will need to buy a new motherboard.
Click to expand...

If this is the case, then that's slightly disappointing, considering how big of a performance difference was between P4's and C2D's.
 
Bloomfield (Nehalem) is truly a new architecture, so unlike Kentsfield -> Yorkfield (Penryn), the improvements will be staggered, depending on task.
In some tasks Bloomfield might be 50% faster clock for clock, in others 5% faster or even the same or slower, clock for clock, for all we know at this point. So it will probably be a mixed bag. From previews there should be a very decent improvement in gaming clock for clock with current games.

Heavily multi-threaded, heavily memory intensive apps will probably see the biggest boost, if memory issues are fixed before launch (intels very good about that kind of thing, usually.) Memory bandwidth should be probably much improved, and in the 'tock' part of the intel tick-tock cycle, i.e. the die shrink / re-spin of the Nehalem, I expect we will see even more memory performance improvements, as the launch Bloomfields are intels first CPU-integrated memory controller designs. Some of the other improvements should be related to the new SSE instructions, including text handling improvements now being built into SSE, which will probably improve database and OS performance more than gaming performance, but who knows, down the line. A few other architectural improvements will help with video encoding, etc. Based on the earliest previews there is at least a 30% improvement in 3dmark vantages CPU score.

Best case, we will see a $300 low end 2.66Ghz Nehalem at launch. THis will likely be 20-50% faster than a stock Q9450 as far as CPU performance goes in games (and remember that there is much more to game performance than your CPU). So it's not like Nehalem will make your Yorkfield pc obsolete, especially if you overclock. Who knows what overclocking will be like on a non-XE Nehalem at launch - all we know is the XE chip, probably a $1000+ chip, will have overlocking capabilities at launch, likely through an unlocked multi. QPI overclocking might be hard or impossible on the 'low end' models. After that long wait, you may decide that for all the money you spent on a launch non-XE Nehalem, you got a locked platform.

Also don't forget, to get the most out of a Bloomfield you may need a triple channel DDR3 kit. That's going to cost a pretty penny for decent performance, although its possible performance 3 X 1GB DDR3 kit may be "reasonably priced" - i.e. under $300. X58 mobos will probably cross the $300 barrier too, especially those with SLI. On the positive side, SLI and XFire on a non Skulltrail priced platform and with intel chipsets will be nice.

The mainstream dual channel Nehalem platform will be launched next year and a couple of previews have hinted that dual channel may not be a huge step down.

I went through the same thought process as you and decided that rather than work through the *inevitable* teething problems of Nehalem at launch time this year with extra early adopter tax added, I'll buy a new Yorkfield platform for now, and there are decent X48 and P45s mobo deals, excellent DDR2 deals, nice CPU deals now and in the very near future, and I plan to ebay the lot at a bit of hit once I feel Nehalem is stable and worth it - whenever that is.

If you really wait till next year that might work out cheaper than buying now, upgrading to Nehalem within 4-12months, but I couldn't wait - too many things I've been putting off until I got a new platform.
 
I would rather just get a Q6600 and be good for a couple for years, gaming wont benefit from Nehalem that much.
 
Wow I feel a little dumber now by my post. I had no idea Nehalem was that much more powerful. Amazing.

But I do agree that you may just be better off just buying now.
 
here is a quote from anandtech, who had 2 nehalems to fool around with and benchmark a month or so ago.

" And if you're curious, this quad-core Nehalem running at 2.66GHz is within 20% of the performance of an eight-core 3.2GHz Skulltrail system. Equalize clock speed and we'd bet that a quad-core Nehalem would be the same speed as an 8-core Skulltrail ".


so that pretty much sounds to me like a 100% bump. this was in the valve map compilation section.

but of course, there is that little thing about intel locking fsb overclocking on the non xe cpu's.
 
Tri Channel isnt needed. You can run it in Single, Dual, or Triple channel perfectly. Most will go Dual as Triple is not looking to be such a hit.

I say wait. Yes whats currently available will be fine for you but if you buy now your investing into a technology that will die within a year. If you buy at the beginning of the Nehalem life cycle youll have 3 years of continual new products coming out that you can upgrade to. If you buy now your stuck with what you got because your basically buying almost the best of whats out right now at the end of its life cycle.
 
Look at it this way. Buying a cheap but overclockable dual core CPU, a cheap but reliable motherboard, and some cheap DDRII now and waiting a year to get a Nehalem system will cost the same as keeping what you have now and upgrading right when Nehalem hits.

With current prices you should do a cheap core upgrade keeping in mind that you will replace it in a year. Then you can wait until Nehalem prices have had a price drop or 2 and DDRIII triple channel kits drop in price before you buy. Everyone wins. :cool:

Just stop by the FS/FT forum. You can get a good deal on a cpu & motherboard with a known overclock listed for it.
 
What brom42 said: Get a cheap dual-core CPU, cheap motherboard, and decent amount of RAM to tide you over for a year or so and then go with a Nehalem build. By then, faster Nehalem CPUs will be out for the same or lower prices than launch Nehalem CPUs, DDR3 RAM will be significantly cheaper and faster, and any potential motherboard quirks or Nehalem quirks should be worked out.

Here's a quick idea of what you can get now that will outperform your current setup:
Intel Pentium Dual Core E2180 CPU - $70
Gigabyte GA-G31M-S2L Intel G31 mATX Motherboard - $60
G.Skill F2-6400CL5D-2GBNQ 2 x 1GB DDR2 800 RAM - $45
---
Total: $175 plus tax and shipping

If you plan on overclocking, add this HSF:
Xigmatek HDT-S963 92mm Rifle HSF - $25

So for about $200 now, you'll get a significantly faster rig than your current P4 and the capability for 3.0+Ghz OC. That should definitely last you for a whole year. $175 to $200 is a pretty decent investment.

Oh and the case isn't the 100% absolute factor that determines the quiet/silence of case. You have to factor in what fans are used, what HSF is being used, whether or not there's a fan controller, and other hardware that could make noise like hard drives and video cards.

With that said, this case was built with quiet/silent computing in mind:
Antec P182 ATX Case - $135
 
i went with a rampage formula and a q9450 with 4gb of ram for $600 shipped.

the only reason I even bothered to upgrade was to sell my friend my old computer, so upgrading to this only cost me $200, and I get a quad core and twice the ram, and a much better motherboard.

gaming these days is so GPU based spending tons of $$$ on a new nehalem system doesn't make sense...unless you really want to winrar faster, and convert your entire music library to another format.... I'll wait til Nehalem is cheap and all the quirks are worked out, and spend more money on my graphics card... and games to actually play.
 
Danny Bui said:
What brom42 said: Get a cheap dual-core CPU, cheap motherboard, and decent amount of RAM to tide you over for a year or so and then go with a Nehalem build. By then, faster Nehalem CPUs will be out for the same or lower prices than launch Nehalem CPUs, DDR3 RAM will be significantly cheaper and faster, and any potential motherboard quirks or Nehalem quirks should be worked out.

Here's a quick idea of what you can get now that will outperform your current setup:
Intel Pentium Dual Core E2180 CPU - $70
Gigabyte GA-G31M-S2L Intel G31 mATX Motherboard - $60
G.Skill F2-6400CL5D-2GBNQ 2 x 1GB DDR2 800 RAM - $45
---
Total: $175 plus tax and shipping

If you plan on overclocking, add this HSF:
Xigmatek HDT-S963 92mm Rifle HSF - $25

So for about $200 now, you'll get a significantly faster rig than your current P4 and the capability for 3.0+Ghz OC. That should definitely last you for a whole year. $175 to $200 is a pretty decent investment.

Oh and the case isn't the 100% absolute factor that determines the quiet/silence of case. You have to factor in what fans are used, what HSF is being used, whether or not there's a fan controller, and other hardware that could make noise like hard drives and video cards.

With that said, this case was built with quiet/silent computing in mind:
Antec P182 ATX Case - $135
Click to expand...


good advice man.

To the OP:
There's no point buying Core i7 the day it comes out. The driver, motherboards need atleast a month or 2 to get stable. As a rule I usually wait at least 3months after a chipset is launched just to understand which board is the most popular after reading reviews.

For the mobo : instead of the G31 I would buy the gigabyte DS3 (p35 chipset) which is 90 bucks. (Its more powerful and has better features than the G31 board. and cost 90 bucks) Pair it with some G.Skill PC2-6400 ram and you've got yourself a winner). The system will last you a year and a half comfortably. I'll reiterate : there's plenty of Nehalem to come and its not going anywhere soon. Take your time and till then get a temp. system. Besides you can buy stuff such as the casing and PSU and hard drives (you already have a good video card) fans etc. basically everything other than the mobo and the processor for your new build now. and when core i7 comes out wait a while and drop those into your system when its ready for ya.

My 2 cents; hope its worth a lot more to you.
 
Man, good recommendations. Im kinda in the same boat as OP but my P4 is on AGP :(

Im looking at what Danny Bui posted plus HD4870 and upgraded cpu to E7200, you guys think that would be good for gaming at 1680x1050 ?
 
Im in the process of upgrading my whole rig. I have been out of the game the last couple years so I decided to forget Nehalem for now and let the prices settle and I just bought a new mobo/ram/Q9550/GTX260. I'll probably upgrade sometime later next year when the prices settle down.
 
I too was planning on upgrading from my FX-53 this summer, but decided to wait. If I was just upgrading cpu and motherboard I would do it. However I am doing a complete system rebuild and I would hate to buy now with a brand new chipset around the corner.
 
dezertrat said:
Im looking at what Danny Bui posted plus HD4870 and upgraded cpu to E7200, you guys think that would be good for gaming at 1680x1050 ?
Click to expand...

Yes it will be good enough for gaming at 1680x1050.
 
Danny Bui said:
What brom42 said: Get a cheap dual-core CPU, cheap motherboard, and decent amount of RAM to tide you over for a year or so and then go with a Nehalem build. By then, faster Nehalem CPUs will be out for the same or lower prices than launch Nehalem CPUs, DDR3 RAM will be significantly cheaper and faster, and any potential motherboard quirks or Nehalem quirks should be worked out.

Here's a quick idea of what you can get now that will outperform your current setup:
Intel Pentium Dual Core E2180 CPU - $70
Gigabyte GA-G31M-S2L Intel G31 mATX Motherboard - $60
G.Skill F2-6400CL5D-2GBNQ 2 x 1GB DDR2 800 RAM - $45
---
Click to expand...

Danny Bui gives good advice. I bought an E2200 and GA-EP35-DS3L for $164.99 at Fry's based more or less on some slight modifications from his recommendations. I'm pretty happy with it. The performance at stock clocks is slightly better than my opteron overclocked to 2.6, but with way less heat and noise, plus the ability to overclock to 3.0 when I get around to it :D

(or a round tuit) :D

[edit] I'm also running a 4850 which I got for $150 shipped on the [H] forums a few weeks ago, works great.
 
I agree with that the video card plays the biggest role in how well you want to play your games. It may be better in your case to buy now for cheap with a decent video card and wait a while after Nehalem launches to buy it much cheaper.
 
Keep in mind the cheapest i7 will be a $300+ Quad core that will require DDR3. They are only going to be 15% faster than existing chips. You're better off waiting until the end of 09 when the CPU and memory prices are down to reasonable levels
 
No one knows for sure how much it will all cost when i7 (nehalem) launches. But I don't think it will be to outrageous, unless you go with the extreme processors, the ddr3 prices are starting to drop.
 
bigdogchris said:
Keep in mind the cheapest i7 will be a $300+ Quad core that will require DDR3. They are only going to be 15% faster than existing chips. You're better off waiting until the end of 09 when the CPU and memory prices are down to reasonable levels
Click to expand...
Also assuming that folks will be able to overclock the CPU and the system is running optimally, that percentage "should" be higher. Enough to make me spend the cash to invest in one possibly.
 
I am waiting for Core i7 because I have the need for SPEED...... and dont mind the extra $$'s at launch to have the best.
 
BF-2 said:
I am waiting for Core i7 because I have the need for SPEED...... and dont mind the extra $$'s at launch to have the best.
Click to expand...

QFT. It is all about what a person is willing to spend. I got my X2 4400+ when it was $660. I got my Q6600 when they were around $450. So when people talk about launch i7's costing $300+ I am thinking it is a deal. :D Hell, I got my 8gb of ram when 4gb kits were $350+ each.

I have $1000-$1500 budgeted for my i7 core (mobo, cpu, ram) upgrade, and I am still waiting several months until all the reviews for the chipsets come back. I only use Intel chipsets and their drivers are always awesome, even right at launch.

Because I tend to be an early adopter, I have had my Q6600 for over 2 years now. (I think) It is just feeling long in the tooth. I am used to its speed, so it is nothing special anymore.

**edit**

It was annoying me so I looked up my order. I've had my quad since March 07 and paid $550 for it. It seems like I have had it longer than that!
 
thank you for all the good advice. it looks like a quick upgrade would be the way to go. the question i have right now is whether or not i should go for a quad. i know it doesn't make much difference in games but what about desktop applications? that's where i have been having the most of my difficulties. once i launch into a full screen game things run surprisingly well considering the age of everything but my video card.

i was thinking about the E8500 or Q6600 they are both the same price in a combo deal with the BIOSTAR TPower I45 for 324 dollars. have you heard bad about Biostar because it seems cheap for a board with esata (i have always wanted and esata port).

should i go with the quad core or the dual core? any better and cheaper products that i am overlooking? and finally am i over buying considering that i plan to switch it all out in about a year?

Thanks in Advance,

Shaden79

p.s. i made a build for my girlfriend with the p182 about a year ago when i got a supper deal from newegg with 50 dollars of instantly and a 50 dollar mail in rebate. the case ended up being about 55 dollars :) so i find it really hard to spend 135 on one almost a year later.... :(
(great case though, when idle i sometimes almost forgot the thing was on.)
 
shaden79 said:
should i go with the quad core or the dual core? any better and cheaper products that i am overlooking? and finally am i over buying considering that i plan to switch it all out in about a year?
Click to expand...

Name the top 5 things you spend the most time doing and/or are the most important things that you do on your computer.

Then we can give you an answer.
 
lets see...
office apps, web (3 or 4 windows of 6-12 tabs), Videos, gaming, vpn to a work computer and a little photoshop.

Shaden79
 
Shit, then go with the E7200 then. I can do everything you just listed on a dual-core CPU just fine. Since you're planning on replacing everything in a year anyway, the E7200 or even the E2180 are good choices for you. Only get the Q6600 or E8400 (the E8500's 133Mhz clock speed and .5 multi isn't worth $20 for a person on a budget) if you plan on keeping the rig for 2 or more years.

So yes you are overbuying.
 
semisonic9 said:
I was under the impression it was going to be notably more than a 20% increase. This isn't a die-shrink, this is a architectural evolution.

I'd heard 80% faster, based on early numbers. Of course, the problem then becomes "um...what's out now that I'll even notice major gains in performance with this chip on?".

~S
Click to expand...

expect it to be at LEAST 50% faster then core 2 clock for clock. the early benchmarks on ALPHA bored and drivers all shows 30% increase. they compared the midrange nehalem to the fastest quad core extreme and it left it for dust and these figures where done early this year. a years worth of tweaking and fixing could make it even more faster.

i suggest u wait unless u REALY need a pc as in now. im on a p4 agp system and i bought a ps3 to help me hold it out till jan/feb when i finaly build a nehalem machine.

next year im going to be in financial hell once i finaly buy my own house with a proper mortgage so i cannot afford to buy a cheap build now and wait end of next year to buy nehalem because that money will be long gone. my aim is to build a nehalem before i move house because any other money left over for next year wont be for no pc build. it depends on peoples situation. i am happy to spend 1k in pounds(about 1.8k in dollers) to build a nehalem system that will last me 3 years. i made the stupid decision in buying a p4/agp AT the end of its cycle and because of that, i couldnt upgrade the gpu or anything after a year with it. this nehalem system will help me to easily change cpu's if needed or even buy just a new 2nd gen cpu and mobo whilst keeping my ram and GPU if needed
 
I pounced. Well, my hand was forced as my fiance gave me a new Q6600 as an engagement gift. She knows I'm a geek :D
Went out and bought 4GB RAM, a nice Asus P5E Deluxe motherboard, and an Ultima 90 cooler for the CPU. Reusing my 8800GT and existing HDDs.. will make for a nice upgrade.
 
umgill45 said:
good advice man.

To the OP:
There's no point buying Core i7 the day it comes out. The driver, motherboards need atleast a month or 2 to get stable. As a rule I usually wait at least 3months after a chipset is launched just to understand which board is the most popular after reading reviews.
Click to expand...

The driver?
This is a CPU, not a GPU.
The first motherboards will improve, but should be one fine i BIOS, usally Intel chipsets just works...no fuss there.
So other that it might be less wise(moneywise) there is nothing wrong with going early.
 
Atech said:
The driver?
This is a CPU, not a GPU.
The first motherboards will improve, but should be one fine i BIOS, usally Intel chipsets just works...no fuss there.
So other that it might be less wise(moneywise) there is nothing wrong with going early.
Click to expand...

nothing wrong at all
 
what price/timeline are we looking at for the new intel chips? for example, if the chips are expected out in October this brings up a few questions:

1. when will the chips show up on newegg?
2. when will mobos show up on newegg?
3. what companies will come out with mobos, and when? Should I expect an ASUS, eVGA, and Gigabit mobo when the new intel chips are launched in october?
4. what is the expected quality of these early mobos? Are they usually pretty reliable? I dont buy many mobos unless they have like 100+ reviews on newegg.
5. will the first round of mobos support future chips? for example, the mobos out now support quad, core 2 extreem, core 2 duo.
6. Will we see a price drop on DDR2/DDR3, and C2D CPUs/Mobos in october? If so, how extreme of a price drop?

I'm just asking you to speculate so I have some idea what to expect.

These are just some thoughts I've had recently. I really want to skip the C2D generation of CPUs and make my next upgrade more worthwhile, but the price is still a factor.
 
I'm in a similar boat to the OP. Currently running a P4 on an AGP/DDR motherboard - with 1 GB RAM, because for the past 2 years, I kept telling myself it's not worth sinking $ into more DDR given its ridiculous pricing. Not a fun system to work with, even for everyday multitasking... let alone games, which I haven't touched for a couple years now.

I just ordered a cheap E8400-based system yesterday, figuring there is absolutely no point in waiting for Nehalem considering my budget. I picked up the mobo, CPU, and 4 GB DDR2-1000 for a combined $340. How long will it be until any Nehalem-based system can even approach that price point? Probably a year at minimum, and there's no way I can wait that long. I think what really motivated me was the fact that you can get 4 GB of fast DDR2 memory right now for well under $100. Sure, DDR3 prices are apt to drop once Nehalem hits the street... but probably not to the current DDR2 levels for quite some time, right?

Maybe I didn't learn my lesson. To be sure, being stuck with AGP and DDR on my current board has pained me for a couple years now, as I likely would have done intermediate upgrades of both my GPU and memory if I'd been able to get reasonable deals on them. Right now, I guess DDR2 and Socket 775 are in a similar position. If I was buying six months from now and the issue was simply waiting for Neha/DDR3 prices to come down to the range of mere mortals, I might have been tempted to wait. But as it stands, when you factor in wait times for both the launch and price adjustments, it's just too far off to even factor into your purchasing decisions unless you're already running something fairly decent - JMO.
 
Atech said:
The driver?
This is a CPU, not a GPU.
The first motherboards will improve, but should be one fine i BIOS, usally Intel chipsets just works...no fuss there.
So other that it might be less wise(moneywise) there is nothing wrong with going early.
Click to expand...

Well there have been cases in the past when motherboards and cpus have been released but with a design flaw that crippled the product. Cpus that have had bad stepping bugs, motherboards that burn up real quick for example. No matter how much thought and development a company puts into a product there is still that unknown factor that something could go wrong. And some of those things cant be fixed by a simple bios flash.

I'm going to wait until these products mature and are mainstream before I dive into it. And besides intel likes to release different versions or updates of the same processor, and nine times out of ten they get better every update. Take the e8500 first it was the C0 now it has evolved into the E0.
 
brent4president said:
what price/timeline are we looking at for the new intel chips? for example, if the chips are expected out in October this brings up a few questions:

1. when will the chips show up on newegg?
2. when will mobos show up on newegg?
3. what companies will come out with mobos, and when? Should I expect an ASUS, eVGA, and Gigabit mobo when the new intel chips are launched in october?
4. what is the expected quality of these early mobos? Are they usually pretty reliable? I dont buy many mobos unless they have like 100+ reviews on newegg.
5. will the first round of mobos support future chips? for example, the mobos out now support quad, core 2 extreem, core 2 duo.
6. Will we see a price drop on DDR2/DDR3, and C2D CPUs/Mobos in october? If so, how extreme of a price drop?

I'm just asking you to speculate so I have some idea what to expect.

These are just some thoughts I've had recently. I really want to skip the C2D generation of CPUs and make my next upgrade more worthwhile, but the price is still a factor.
Click to expand...
february 09 is the latest you will see nehalem systems become abit more affordable with large amount of stocks and all the bugs ironed/identified.

edit: get a ps3 or a 360 and wait till feb/march to upgrade. perfect time IMO.
 
Go with Dannys recommendation along with a 22" monitor or above. At 1680x1050, the CPU does much less than at 1280x1024. If you upgrade to Nehalem do it in another year or so when its cheaper, improved and more games/apps that are multicore optimized come out. Nehalems big performance gains over current procs is only in multithreaded benches, scenarios. In single threaded, its no better off than the current Yorkfields/Wolfdales (according to preliminary benches by Anandtech). So gamers may be disappointed with Nehalem initially.
 
I am basically gonna go big this time around. I feel ALOT better about going high end with Intel/ATi than I do going SLi with everything nVidia. I went through that crap before and it was horrible. The 680i motherboards pretty much ruined my experience this past gen.

Anyways...this is how I am planning my next PC build this Fall...

Antec Twelve Hundred (watercooled version w/ 200mm rad built in)
Asus X58 R.O.G. Motherboard
Intel i7 2.93Ghz
(2) Non-Reference HD4870x2's Crossfire
Corsair 6GB DDR3 2000 2x2x2 Triple Channel Kit
Western Digital VelociRaptor 300GB
CORSAIR CMPSU-1000HX 1000W PSU

Besides that stuff I will be reusing all the rest of the stuff that I have in my machine...Sharp Aquos 52" 1080p LCD HDTV, Logitech Z-Cinema Speakers & Steelsound 5H v2 Headphones, Logitech G9 Mouse, Logitech G-15 v2 Keyboard, S&S Steelpad Mousepad, (10) eSATA Seagate 500GB. I will be watercooling the new cpu and video cards on 2 separate loops. I will go Swiftech for most of the cooling, but I may be forced to use another brand for the video cards. I know that Asetek is already working on releasing a waterblock for the 4870x2, but I'd like to see another company release a nice waterblock so I have a choice. It should be extremely badass. I already have my money saved up for it. I am literally itching to make the purchase. :)
 
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