Dont know if this belongs in here. But BFG has a flash video showing the next big thing is coming next month March 2006. i'm assuming its the Physics card 
http://www.bfgtech.com/future/
http://www.bfgtech.com/future/
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Physics card next month from BFG?
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$BangforThe$
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Why buy one ATI's X1000's are PPU capable . I imagine their waiting for games to incorperate it. Doesn't do any good to have if games don't use it .
needmorecarnitine
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$BangforThe$ said:
are they as capable as a dedicated ppu? potential customers would ask
$BangforThe$ said:
Capable and Proficient are two separate things. ATI just showed that thier GPUs where better then Nvidias at handling the math behind a PPU. but just because you can create a Driver wrap to make your X1900XTX into a PPU doesn't mean it performs anywhere near the performance of a core designed to handle those types of process.
Just Like a 7800GTX could act like a CPU but it wouldn't make a good one. And just like you could make an A64 into a GPU (think massively overclocked Voodoo1).
As for why to get it. Same reason as you would pick up a Voodoo1. GLquake was the only useful game for it, but people still bought them. In the end if people didn't buy them then we still might be stuck with Software acceleration.
ugh...this whole ppu thing bothers me. They expect people to add another $250-300 to their next build for a physics processing unit.....ludicrous. Once these things actually get used in gaming and become prevalent enough to make the purchase worth it then maybe I'll dive in, but until then I don't see why we can't just use the second relatively unused core on dual core procs to calculate the physics. Hell, quad core procs will be arriving, and god knows a lot of that will be unused during gaming....why not chalk it up to processing the physics?
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needmorecarnitine said:
I'm with you. Thats an easy argument to shoot down. It certainly wouldn't be as capable while also keeping up with it's VIDEO related tasks. That would seem highly unlikely. I don't care if a $500 gpu is twice or even three times as fast as a ppu even if by some magic it could because of the nature of the tasks being similar, and the XT having even more resources like ram etc. Won't be doing 1920*1200 and that at the same time.
Even flies in the face of what you buy certain cards for. Buy a PPU to take the work away from the cpu. Dedicated hardware for dedicated tasks. No revolution in gaming comes from moving workloads around. And onto our graphics card? Yuck get real! My x1900xt is busy pushing pixels thank you.
needmorecarnitine
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quadnad said:
and how many gamers have dual core cpus?
what, like 2 or 3 percent?
needmorecarnitine said:
thats a very good point (though I believe the percentage is far higher..), however for the same price as that ppu you could have a dual core proc which would boost all-over system performance, not just unreal 2k9. Make sure you look at this from the proper perspective as well: those gamers that are willing to pay $300 for a ppu certainly haven't skimped on their systems other parts, and therefore the percentage you quoted is far higher.
Either way, if+when the ppus become prevalent, multi-core procs will be far more ubiquitous than they are now
I can sum it up in one word
Ageia.
www.ageia.com
The next gen ghost recon game is being built aroungd this new card , A lot of info on the new game is being withheld from the GR PC community wile we wait for the Xbox version to be shipped ( thanks bill ).
The PC version is said to be nothing like the Xbox version and is actualy beeing made by another DEV firm that UBI has contracted in .
http://www.grin.se/
Here is a link to a DEV chat that talk about using the Ageia card
DEV chat highlights
Thats my guess on the BFG thing anyway
Ageia.
www.ageia.com
The next gen ghost recon game is being built aroungd this new card
, A lot of info on the new game is being withheld from the GR PC community wile we wait for the Xbox version to be shipped ( thanks bill ).The PC version is said to be nothing like the Xbox version and is actualy beeing made by another DEV firm that UBI has contracted in .
http://www.grin.se/
Here is a link to a DEV chat that talk about using the Ageia card
DEV chat highlights
Thats my guess on the BFG thing anyway
quadnad said:
Here is the Problem, Tasks that you are doing now with a single core CPU will become more intensive. Try Playing Half Life2 or FarCry or COD2 with a P3 600MHz. In the end it can't be done. Even though very little in games have changed fundementally. They will continue to become more intensive, better AI, more AI, bigger maps. The problem is CPU speed isn't goin to grow very fast, and after 30 years CPUs are now having to make the changes that graphics manufacturers did 5-6 years ago, parralel processing. Now what a PPU can do is shift a lot more from a CPU and while its at it do a much better job (I think they said almost 100x better). So while right now this very minute in theory that second core can go towards Physics, it won't be nearly as good, and in a year you will be begging to have the core back for a game whether or not the game uses an advnced physics engine.
Another thing, They have removed the need for Hard drive controllers, Math processors, Sound cards, Nics, Firewire cards, and god knows what else over the last 10 years. While only on 3d accellerator, and now a PPU. The 3d card was taken away when about Voodoo3 came out and the last manufacturer to do a 2d only card (3dfx) finally started to make nothing but All in one cards. So I think anyone who wants to Bitch about actually having a new type of product for once in the last 5 years, can just sit back and look at what these manufacturers have done. Don't whine because you want the fastest machine out there but don't want to spend top dollar.
QFTSly said:
huh?! I'm not sure if you've noticed that benchmarks these days (gaming and 3dmark05/06), but they aren't cpu limited, they're video card limited (to a point of course the 600mhz processor would choke to serve info the vid card).Sly said:
and also, I don't appreciate it when you (TopWeasel) assume that all I want is the best machine out there and don't want to spend top dollar; I just don't know why I should be paying $300 for the damn thing when NOTHING supports it as of now. If it was $100-150 then maybe I could be suckered into buying it, and I know there will be endless comparisons to the beginning of 3d accellerated graphics, but I really don't feel that spending $300 on something that doesn't even have a function (as of yet) is a good idea. When you say that now we'd be able to do those physics on a second core, but possibly (remember, you're speculating) in a year I'd be "begging" for a ppu, then maybe I'll pick it up. That is, of course, based on the assumption that there are enough games out at that point that support it, and that the money put into the thing is actually worth the game itself.
At this point, the PPU seems almost like a gimmick. All I'm saying, is that for now I see no reason to buy the card, at the very least until there are quite a few significant titles out there supporting it.
Rofl-Mic-Lofl
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quadnad said:
Knowing what you've seen from GPU's over the past 10years, would you rather use your other unused core for graphics and save $300? They're improving computers.I was at Qcon when AGEIA showed some of the videos rendered by it, seeing a boulder crush up into a million peices and then water flood a canyon thingy, zomg. [tard] Think of the hentai it could make![/tard] lol seriously though, don't be an old geezer... accept the bigger and better things!
Edit: Saying it's ludicrous and a gimmick because it's not supported is like saying, "PCIE is a gimmick! The 6800GT AGP is just as good as the PCIE screw PCIE!" Ignoring the fact that it might not be better right now, but that in the NEAR future it will be totally worth it.
Rofl-Mic-Lofl
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Didn't find it mean, just closed-minded as you weren't taking into consideration what it will do to games in the years to come.
Rofl-Mic-Lofl said:
I totally understand what you mean, but to be honest, I don't like the idea of becoming an early adopter of anything, much less something that'll pinch $300 from my wallet. Yes I see the potential to change gaming, but on the same note, yes I see the potential for this to become a technology that struggles, plods around for a bit, and just dies. Why can't we integrate this PPU into motherboards? Will I really need to upgrade my ppu every couple of years like I do my video card?
Rofl-Mic-Lofl
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I totally see what you are saying, I don't like being the "beta testers" as most companies use early adopters *cough* 360 *cough*. But I do think this will become a very important part of a computer, you will probably have to upgrade it almost at the same rate as a gpu lol. Why can't we integrate it to mobos? Once again, do you wan't to run on onboard graphics?
lol. Why can't we integrate it to mobos? Once again, do you wan't to run on onboard graphics?lol...i hear that about onboard graphics, but it will make me really really sad if i have to upgrade the ppu AS WELL as the gpu every few years to stay in good stead with newer titles. why not standardize a level of ppu and use that unit for a generation of motherboards, and then possibly bump it up later? Maybe a removeable socket for new ppu? I dunno...I guess I have a hard time believing that the PPU will need to be updated so often for physics in games...and of course there are people who said that about graphics cards, so I suppose I should just hunker down and wait for the arrival.Rofl-Mic-Lofl said:I totally see what you are saying, I don't like being the "beta testers" as most companies use early adopters *cough* 360 *cough*. But I do think this will become a very important part of a computer, you will probably have to upgrade it almost at the same rate as a gpu
as to all those who says their is nothing that utalizes the ppu, you are right, and that is why they have not released it yet. iirc i read a while back whear they just have the cards sitting in a wharehouse waiting to be shipped with a compatible big name game
quadnad said:
Not True, The vidoe card by far is the most important thing in a system, but when you have such disparity between just using an A64 vs. a P4 sometimes upwards a 10% difference between comparible models, then You are still going to run into serious issues with a 2500+ AXP or a 2.4Ghz P4. And something like this will help it, it will be another branch in the coding that the CPU won't need to handle. But while its taking away from a branch from the CPU its also exponentially increases potential of that branch, just like the Voodoo1 did when it was released. But I digress, we have it a pausing point where CPU speed is unlikely to increase dramatically in the next few years. This allows our system performance increase, and possibly in a big way, without needing AMD and Intel to come up with Quantem Computing.
quadnad said:
No one wants to be an early adopter of a failed tech, but its also the people willing to be an early adopter that helps form the future. I did this With DVD, 3d graphics, and I plan on doing this for Physics, and HD DVD (BLu-Ray must not live).
Topweasel said:
Well, I did this for 3d Accelleration, but I suppose I just don't see the same potential in it like I did 3d Accel. I think I'll just say thanks to you for plonking down the change to see whether all this is something I'll buy into.
Rofl-Mic-Lofl said:I totally see what you are saying, I don't like being the "beta testers" as most companies use early adopters *cough* 360 *cough*. But I do think this will become a very important part of a computer, you will probably have to upgrade it almost at the same rate as a gpu
An imporant part of an computer? Doubt it...maybe to a gamer, but not to everyone else...
OMG a bunch of hardware "enthusiasts" bitching about new technology being introduced. There's something wrong about this whole conversation.
Nobody is forcing anybody to do anything. Ageia and BFG are saying "hey look at this cool thing we made, buy it if you want it."quadnad said:
If this is your opinion, then don't buy it, and this discussion doesn't have to continue. I will likely be buying one, because of the possibility of what it could be in the future. What if people had this attitude for consoles? "I'm not buying an (xbox360 or ps3 or etc) because there aren't any good games for it." Compare Gran Turismo 4 with a PS2 launch title, and you will see the advantage of buying hardware before software.quadnad said:
Slartibartfast
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The impression I'm getting is that people who see these things in action are hyped up about them, while those of us who haven't think they will be a "gimmick." I for one am seriously looking forward to getting one
Whatsisname
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I don't think these "PPU's" will take off. They will be too slow when they are out on the PCI-E bus to talk to the cpu fast enough, and they would be easily bested performance wise by some extra circuitry on a processor.
I'm sorry, but doesn't that seem a little naive? The whole reason this is a deal at all is because people are touting it as the next revolution in gaming. Now I understand that being an enthusiast and "bitching" about new technology might sound contradictory, but I don't believe that every enthusiast has to get a semi just because something new is on the horizon.jebo_4jc said:
Your example doesn't hold water. First off, you're able to buy an entire all-in-one game machine (XBOX360) for the price of a PPU. Second, for both the XBOX360 and PS3 there have been months and months of beautiful demos and movies of many games coming out for the new hardware as well as large companies (Sony and Microsoft) backing these titles. They make sure that the titles which are released aren't crap, and that the console won't just appear and die like this PPU very possibly could do. What I'm saying is this: There is a whole lot less of a risk being an early adopter and paying $300 or even $400 for a game machine backed by behemoths like Sony and Microsoft.jebo_4jc said:
The only things on the Aegia site are some "liquid" splashing over car demos, rolling boulders, a plane crashing into a hangar, and a few others. The only demo I saw on that entire site that I thought looked good (and there are a LOT of them) was the plane crashing into the hangar. Perhaps if one of the companies supposedly creating games supporting this PPU would get their act in gear and show me something impressive...
Just to clarify, I'm a PC-only gamer, though you made me laugh when you mentioned GT4 since I love my racing sims, and thats the only one we don't have for the PC that I'd really like to see
Now, all of this isn't to say that I don't think that the PPU has potential, because I really believe it does. I just think that it's going to take a hell of a lot more than some watered down crappy looking demos to convince me that $300 is worth it.
serbiaNem said:
You took a discusion about CPU and Video card affects on gaming, qouted a small portion of a single point, ripped any of its context out, yeah for you. I have a feeling that along with myself most people here do not care whether you use your computer for work. I would refrain from doing this type of qouting in the future as the people who do this come off as an ass.
As for other uses for the Physics card, yes your right, those particular funtions are useless to me though. I could see development of this type of product having a huge affect on the CGI field though.
Whatsisname said:
Your wrong there, no matter what the connection speed is for the PPU the CPU is just to darn slow as a single pipline part to handle this. I think I read orignally that these first gen PPU cores will be about 125 million transitors. Thats about a third the size of the new 4MB P-Ds, not something to sneeze at and would deffinitely be a little harder to add then just putting on some extra circuitry.
quadnad said:I'm sorry, but doesn't that seem a little naive? The whole reason this is a deal at all is because people are touting it as the next revolution in gaming. Now I understand that being an enthusiast and "bitching" about new technology might sound contradictory, but I don't believe that every enthusiast has to get a semi just because something new is on the horizon.
Your example doesn't hold water. First off, you're able to buy an entire all-in-one game machine (XBOX360) for the price of a PPU. Second, for both the XBOX360 and PS3 there have been months and months of beautiful demos and movies of many games coming out for the new hardware as well as large companies (Sony and Microsoft) backing these titles. They make sure that the titles which are released aren't crap, and that the console won't just appear and die like this PPU very possibly could do. What I'm saying is this: There is a whole lot less of a risk being an early adopter and paying $300 or even $400 for a game machine backed by behemoths like Sony and Microsoft.
The only things on the Aegia site are some "liquid" splashing over car demos, rolling boulders, a plane crashing into a hangar, and a few others. The only demo I saw on that entire site that I thought looked good (and there are a LOT of them) was the plane crashing into the hangar. Perhaps if one of the companies supposedly creating games supporting this PPU would get their act in gear and show me something impressive...
Just to clarify, I'm a PC-only gamer, though you made me laugh when you mentioned GT4 since I love my racing sims, and thats the only one we don't have for the PC that I'd really like to see
Now, all of this isn't to say that I don't think that the PPU has potential, because I really believe it does. I just think that it's going to take a hell of a lot more than some watered down crappy looking demos to convince me that $300 is worth it.
Then by your Xbox360 (i know I have) and stop playing PC games all together because being top of the line isn't always cheap. The fact is on my last system build I paid $500 dollars for my GPU, $550 for my CPU I spent nearly $300 on both my RAM and one of my HDDs. 4 things right there that are over the costs of a Xbox360 and I could have spent more on each unit going higher. But for your watered down demos, again I understand your reasoning, but, and this is most true in the tech world, Software is designed after adoption of technology. If everybody waits for software titles before buying then the titles aren't made and the tech dies.
Whatsisname
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I'm not sure if I even want to properly respond to someone with such a horrible spelling mistake as the very first word in their entry.
Anyways, the connection speed is exactly what will prevent the PPU's from doing their job properly. It doesnt matter if it's got 125 million or billion or trillion transistors. I could hook up IBM's blue gene supercomputing cluster to do physical calculations, but if I do it with a 9600 baud serial connection, its going to be way too slow, and either it or the cpu will be waiting for the other to hurry up all the time. Unlike video, which is a one way process, computations for physical systems are two way, one element depends on the others. The PCI-E bus will always be very slow compared to the internal busses of the CPU's, and thats why a CPU properly designed to do these calculations could always smite a PPU, without requiring extra programming, or extra hardware.
Anyways, the connection speed is exactly what will prevent the PPU's from doing their job properly. It doesnt matter if it's got 125 million or billion or trillion transistors. I could hook up IBM's blue gene supercomputing cluster to do physical calculations, but if I do it with a 9600 baud serial connection, its going to be way too slow, and either it or the cpu will be waiting for the other to hurry up all the time. Unlike video, which is a one way process, computations for physical systems are two way, one element depends on the others. The PCI-E bus will always be very slow compared to the internal busses of the CPU's, and thats why a CPU properly designed to do these calculations could always smite a PPU, without requiring extra programming, or extra hardware.
Topweasel said: