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PC Games going Bye Bye

Ethug said:
The parts that disagree with me? LOL. Unless a mod is charged for it does NOTHING for the marketplace. Your entire "mods are new content that keep people playing" arguement....thats the part working for ME.

"other developers know that putting a game out and the sdk and then having 500,000 people buy it to play a mod still means people buying it."
-this only happens in the weird little universe you call home. 500,000 is astronomical sales for a PC title. Only a couple a year will break a million, if that.
Click to expand...

the modding community is still part of the gaming industry
charging for what they are making is not a needed component

the modders will make stuff they may go on to making games for a living or programming or something else but they will be around.

if you define the "marketplace" as eb\kmart etc. then it is true that mods wont help them
and seriously who gives a frak about them

I can download a game faster than going to the store to buy it on $random optical media$
 
tacticus said:
the modding community is still part of the gaming industry
charging for what they are making is not a needed component

the modders will make stuff they may go on to making games for a living or programming or something else but they will be around.

if you define the "marketplace" as eb\kmart etc. then it is true that mods wont help them
and seriously who gives a frak about them

I can download a game faster than going to the store to buy it on $random optical media$
Click to expand...

I hope you didn't get the wrong idea of what I said.

Modding is second rate compared to the game itself. Doesn't mean it's not bad, and people buy games to mod them.

But mods have nothing to do with the game itself, and shouldn't be charged.
 
tacticus said:
the modding community is still part of the gaming industry
charging for what they are making is not a needed component

the modders will make stuff they may go on to making games for a living or programming or something else but they will be around.

if you define the "marketplace" as eb\kmart etc. then it is true that mods wont help them
and seriously who gives a frak about them

I can download a game faster than going to the store to buy it on $random optical media$
Click to expand...

Ahaha. So you're entire arguement is "maybe these people will go on to make games for a living" ?
lol.
I'll see that and raise you "maybe they end up at mcdonalds instead"
 
Godofdestrcution said:
I hope you didn't get the wrong idea of what I said.

Modding is second rate compared to the game itself. Doesn't mean it's not bad, and people buy games to mod them.

But mods have nothing to do with the game itself, and shouldn't be charged.
Click to expand...

depends more on the mod
if it is something like red orchestra then yes charging for a mod works

look at gary's mod as well i think its well worth the 13 dollars i paid for it
(love low usd)
 
Ethug said:
Ahaha. So you're entire arguement is "maybe these people will go on to make games for a living" ?
lol.
I'll see that and raise you "maybe they end up at mcdonalds instead"
Click to expand...

stfu-320x240.jpg


Sorry, but talking with fanboys has gotten extremely old.
 
Ethug said:
Ahaha. So you're entire arguement is "maybe these people will go on to make games for a living" ?
lol.
I'll see that and raise you "maybe they end up at mcdonalds instead"
Click to expand...

No my argument was that the primary employment doesnt matter
someone working on a mod is in the industry and assists the development of it

It matters not if they work at McDonalds, Square or Google
 
tacticus said:
No my argument was that the primary employment doesnt matter
someone working on a mod is in the industry and assists the development of it

It matters not if they work at McDonalds, Square or Google
Click to expand...

Well, thats understandable...but mods, while providing interest, don't provide new revenue or growth. They aren't running out and purchasing new product. Theres work going into mods and conversions because the people doing them hope to get into the industry. They aren't doing them out of the kindness of their hearts.
 
Ethug said:
Your debate skills certainly aren't in question...I mean just look, a picture, and a "fanboy" insult I've already put to rest multiple times.
Click to expand...

When a person starts saying:

1: That a few people playing old games means the pc realm is collapsing
2: People who make mods will end up working minimum wage
3: A bunch of other crap.

What else is there to do except post pictures?
 
I heard, and this is just a rumor, but I heard that they were replacing PC Gaming with Dr. Phil.
 
Godofdestrcution said:
When a person starts saying:

1: That a few people playing old games means the pc realm is collapsing
2: People who make mods will end up working minimum wage
3: A bunch of other crap.

What else is there to do except post pictures?
Click to expand...

1) A reflection of the market, and a point of discussion, but not the entire discussion. You came in on what, page 6? I'll bet you hadn't read a single page before that.
2) Its just as likely. Perhaps you can show me figures proving how many people actually get jobs vs the number of people who work on projects every year? Till then you have nothing other than you didn't LIKE what I said.
3) Like calling people "fanboy" and "moron" repeatedly?
 
Ethug said:
lol. you've listed console games being PORTED to PC in there. Hello?
Click to expand...

I like how you are conviently ignoring simple points.

1) I listed PC exclusive titles. Consoles also have exclusive titles.
2) Consoles have big name not exclusive titles (Assassin's creed for example). This Includes spreading those games on the PC. I might add has rarely happened this much as before (cross development for such big names). Hence minimizing the thought of "One must own a console to play (game)"
3) With that link of PC games I posted, that leaves a large list of games with ports just making PC gaming that much bigger.

Ethug said:
lol. you've listed console games being PORTED to PC in there. Hello?
Sloppy seconds only prove my point. THAT is the funny.?
Click to expand...

Prove your point....how? Those games aren't exclusive to even to consoles. Maybe you havent' notice the tend, since 8 years ago, that games are leaving the mentality behind of "Make just for this system"

Bioshock: developer has stated the PC experience vs console experience are different
Lost Planet: Nothing wrong with this port. In fact since it is fairly simple to CROSS DEVELOP for SUCCESSFUL SYSTEMS, they had time to bump up textures.

Most of those ports are being developed at the same time. The only limition is that PC games wont generally have higher textures. But like YOU STATED earlier which is very true: $500 video card market isn't what drives the gaming market. The more flexible and less system requirements a game has, the easier it is to sell.

But a company isn't going to cross develope for a system if they don't think it will sell
 
xerus` said:
...if Unreal Tournament 3 was designed for consoles and ported to PC, then just kick me in the crotch now.
Click to expand...

It's a flexible engine that consoles will be able to play the game

Doom3
HL2
Farcry
 
Ethug said:
Its all moving online, yet theres really only one game people are looking forward to on the PC this year to make their $600 video card seem worthwhile: Crysis.

Where are the titles? Why aren't PC players raving about X game one week, and Y game another?

People are pointing out Spore and Starcraft 2 for Christ's sake, games not out till mid and END of next year (If starcraft 2 actually makes that).

It should be pointed out that "digital distribution of games" includes little things like the xbox 360 and PS3..not just the PC, and theres no breakdown between the two (convenient) in your link. But then, only a "fanboy" would point that out.
Click to expand...

YOU already stated that the $600 video card market is meaningless. Don't bring it into your own arguments :rolleyes:

I'm like a broken record now
Sorry if you don't care about Hellgate London
Sorry if you don't care about Quake Wars
Sorry if you don't care about The Witcher
Sorry if you don't care about Bioshock
Sorry if you don't care about HL2: Ep2 which you pay for, helping the market right?
Sorry if in the beginning of the year you didn't care about Supreme Commander
Sorry if in the beginning of the year you didn't care about Command and Conquer
Sorry if in the beginning of the year you didn't care about Titan Quest: Immortal throne

How long do I need this list spelled out for you?

If you're simply looking for a reason to bitch then bitch, but I think I've shown you that for an industry that is "dying" there are plenty of games available.

Console gamers are not raving about X game this week and Y game afterwards :rolleyes: . They are in summer slump just like everyone else. 360 owners are waiting for about 5 games around the end of the year. PS3 and Wii owners are waiting for anything, but all their big titles come out the end of the year. Seriously, for someoen who worked at Gamestop you should how the cycles of when big titles come out.

Edit: You know what is funny. If you actually left and looked at the console gaming forum vs the PC, the PC side you see a lot of talk about games while consoles are usually bitching about the system itself or how Sony sucks, My xbox died, this system is more powerful.
 
its not just the bad people that download games off the net, people that use Steam and that also make people believe PC Gaming is dying since they don't have to go out and buy it from the store.

I 4 one will never use Steam to download games, I always prefer to have a hard copy (what if the whole internet went down somehow), plus I love Collection/Limited/Special Editions :D.

PC Gaming will never die, not when there professional gamers like Fatal1ty around, Console games are just the same way, though they are really for the people that don't want to upgrade their system every couple of years to play the latest games/or just dont like computers in general.

my $0.02
 
Some stats for all the nay sayers.
I posted this thread since I am CONCERNED. I am a PC Gamer, I do not play on consoles (I just haven't found a remote I like better thn k+m).

http://forum.pcvsconsole.com/viewthread.php?tid=15831

Now, if you can all say that theres nothing there...well then you're denying something BIG, and it's gonna smack us all in the face.
 
Ethug said:
Well, thats understandable...but mods, while providing interest, don't provide new revenue or growth. They aren't running out and purchasing new product. Theres work going into mods and conversions because the people doing them hope to get into the industry. They aren't doing them out of the kindness of their hearts.
Click to expand...

thats not true at all, i bought UT2004 for the Red orchestra MOD and i have NEVER ever EVER played the origional UT2004 game itself saying that mods provide no new revenue is total BS.

Do you even know how many people have bought Elderscrolls IV Oblivion for the simple fact that mods make it a better game simply because what the devs made was subpar gameplay wise where mods picked up the slack.
 
altcon said:
Some stats for all the nay sayers.
I posted this thread since I am CONCERNED. I am a PC Gamer, I do not play on consoles (I just haven't found a remote I like better thn k+m).

http://forum.pcvsconsole.com/viewthread.php?tid=15831

Now, if you can all say that theres nothing there...well then you're denying something BIG, and it's gonna smack us all in the face.
Click to expand...

So it's dropped to 900 million...have you ever considered that those numbers don't include the hundreds of millions being generated by MMO's? WoW alone generates 900 million + per year. (8 million subscribers at 10 bucks ((low estimate)) per month times 12 months per year). That's just one MMO, granted the biggest one, but there are others making profits. Then consider the hundreds of millions being sold through steam and gametap and others, that aren't counted in that number either.

Some morons like Ethug still haven't commented on why those revenues shouldn't count towards the industry total. They clearly do, and ignoring new business models is just asinine.

And really, at the end of the day, you have to wonder if the pompous asses like ethug are smarter because they worked at Ebgames, or whether Blizzard, EA, Id, Valve, and the rest of these multimillion dollar companies are continuing to drive PC exclusive games and business models.

Who are you going to believe? Ethug that PC gaming is dead, or Blizzard, who will be releasing their soon to be smash hit and revenue explosion Starcraft II on PC only? Hmm, multi billion dollar successful developer vs some kid who worked at EB...I wonder who has their finger on the pulse of the market. I'll choose ethug...Blizzard should scrap all of these terrible PC projects. Someone let the developers of crysis and hellgate london, the sims, spore, and all the rest, that they really need to get out of this dead industry. CANCEL ALL PROJECTS!!

In reality, if you count online games and online services, you could be approaching or even beating those 1999 numbers, so color me skeptical of these numbers, and thoroughly amused by the morons who keep citing sources that have no background data or methodology for their pronouncements.
 
Also note, that the numbers quoted there show a separate category for "US PC online games". Is that online sales? Is that online revenue? Do these numbers include online sales or brick and mortar only? For all we know without more data, the decline could be a result of PC sales transitioning from Walmart to Walmart.com, or amazon...it's unquestioned that since the late 90s people buy more online.

Does US PC online games reflect MMO's and Steam and Gametap?

Show me raw data and methodology before you pronounce absolute death of an industry folks.
 
If the PC was dead, ask yourself how/why STALKER sold several million copies as soon as it was released........and many sites badmouthed the game due to its delays,"old"graphics and buggy code.

Consoles have a great attraction.....put in dics and play. No updates, no patches,no worry about hardware upgrades.......360 has an excellent online community, no doubt.

Still, the PC can provide superior graphic in most cases and modifications that are not possible in consoles and a mouse/keyboard combination that in my opinion is far superior to the console controller.

PCs will not go away.:D
 
Technoob said:
So it's dropped to 900 million...have you ever considered that those numbers don't include the hundreds of millions being generated by MMO's? WoW alone generates 900 million + per year. (8 million subscribers at 10 bucks ((low estimate)) per month times 12 months per year). That's just one MMO, granted the biggest one, but there are others making profits. Then consider the hundreds of millions being sold through steam and gametap and others, that aren't counted in that number either.

Some morons like Ethug still haven't commented on why those revenues shouldn't count towards the industry total. They clearly do, and ignoring new business models is just asinine.

And really, at the end of the day, you have to wonder if the pompous asses like ethug are smarter because they worked at Ebgames, or whether Blizzard, EA, Id, Valve, and the rest of these multimillion dollar companies are continuing to drive PC exclusive games and business models.

Who are you going to believe? Ethug that PC gaming is dead, or Blizzard, who will be releasing their soon to be smash hit and revenue explosion Starcraft II on PC only? Hmm, multi billion dollar successful developer vs some kid who worked at EB...I wonder who has their finger on the pulse of the market. I'll choose ethug...Blizzard should scrap all of these terrible PC projects. Someone let the developers of crysis and hellgate london, the sims, spore, and all the rest, that they really need to get out of this dead industry. CANCEL ALL PROJECTS!!

In reality, if you count online games and online services, you could be approaching or even beating those 1999 numbers, so color me skeptical of these numbers, and thoroughly amused by the morons who keep citing sources that have no background data or methodology for their pronouncements.
Click to expand...

...Wow you just never really read anything from page 1 onward did you? revenue generated by MMORPGs was a key component of what I discussed early on. You're showing completely ignorance and laziness by name calling without actually having read the thread.
I'm not going to restate things that have clearly been defined by my own posts earlier in this very thread. Go read.
 
magoo said:
If the PC was dead, ask yourself how/why STALKER sold several million copies as soon as it was released........and many sites badmouthed the game due to its delays,"old"graphics and buggy code.

Consoles have a great attraction.....put in dics and play. No updates, no patches,no worry about hardware upgrades.......360 has an excellent online community, no doubt.

Still, the PC can provide superior graphic in most cases and modifications that are not possible in consoles and a mouse/keyboard combination that in my opinion is far superior to the console controller.

PCs will not go away.:D
Click to expand...

ahaha. Talk about picking the wrong horse..Stalker took like 7 YEARS to complete. Its not a prime example of how the PC market is doing well. Thats akin to picking Duke Nukem Forever.
 
Ethug said:
Not suprisingly, you COMPLETELY missed the point being made by that post..:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

No you have reading comprehesion problems when your being pointed out how wrong you are. I commented on your "why is ther only one game" comment being completely false.

Once again as you keep repeating in your thread posts: Ignoring evidence and points

Why don't you enlighten us all on how I COMPLETELY missed your point like you keep doing?
 
Ethug said:
ahaha. Talk about picking the wrong horse..Stalker took like 7 YEARS to complete. Its not a prime example of how the PC market is doing well. Thats akin to picking Duke Nukem Forever.
Click to expand...

What does that have to do with anything? That's 7 years for people to not care anymore. Fact is it sold well didn't it. Who gives a shit about how long it takes to make a game?
 
altcon said:
Some stats for all the nay sayers.
I posted this thread since I am CONCERNED. I am a PC Gamer, I do not play on consoles (I just haven't found a remote I like better thn k+m).

http://forum.pcvsconsole.com/viewthread.php?tid=15831

Now, if you can all say that theres nothing there...well then you're denying something BIG, and it's gonna smack us all in the face.
Click to expand...

You can show people all the proof in the world, and all they do is shit talk you. Its fucking hilarious. They continue to talk about MMORPGs when those are the PROBLEM, not some wonderful solution. Its like being hit with a bat and denying that its happening to you.
:p
 
Netrat33 said:
What does that have to do with anything? That's 7 years for people to not care anymore. Fact is it sold well didn't it. Who gives a shit about how long it takes to make a game?
Click to expand...

....7 year development cycles dont drive an industry. Not to mention the amount of money invested in such a dev. cycle had to be incredibly high. Do you even understand economics? How much PROFIT did it actually make?
 
If you guys can't post like adults, I'd suggest stepping away from this thread.

One ban has already been handed out this morning due to rule violations in this thread.

Only warning, follow the rules or don't post.
 
Ethug said:
....7 year development cycles dont drive an industry. Not to mention the amount of money invested in such a dev. cycle had to be incredibly high. Do you even understand economics? How much PROFIT did it actually make?
Click to expand...


THQ doesn't sit upon one game and hope all the money comes in from that game and thats it. Each game developed and sold is an investment. And while it may have been bad for there overall profits, they do hope for the staying power of a game to sell. But that is THQs problem which they recoup from other games they sell in the mean time. That is not representing the industry as a whole no matter how late a game is. HL2 was delayed for a year but I'm sure their business plans should help cover up those loses.

You tell me how much profit it made or how long it will continue to sell. You tell me the same thing about a game made on a console. No one knows. Why was Halo 1 (PC) selling for the longest time? Why does a game developed on time get such a poor reception (Pyschonauts)? How much profit does it make (I'm talking in general, you can insert any game that is good that bombs sales wise. Same effect as delayed)
 
Ethug said:
You can show people all the proof in the world, and all they do is shit talk you. Its fucking hilarious. They continue to talk about MMORPGs when those are the PROBLEM, not some wonderful solution. Its like being hit with a bat and denying that its happening to you.
:p
Click to expand...

We're talking about revenue. Since...you know...you guys keep citing that revenue chart as your only non anecdotal "evidence" that pc gaming is in decline. Admitting to the massive revenues of a game like WoW, then trying to discount it because "people play an mmo for a long time" as if that's relevant at all to the conversation is just wrong.

Don't talk about revenue if you are going to discount it in your next breath. Fact is, you cited repeatedly in this thread to the "omg its not 1.8 billion anymore" fact, and then when its pointed out that revenue is in fact tracking close to that when new business models are included...you change your tune. Your only criticism of the MMO has been not that it is generating massive amounts of money, but that you don't think its good for the industry for people to play the same game for a long time....uhhh...ok, but that's irrelevant when you're spouting off one minute about revenues.

It's absolutely worthless having a conversation with you, because its increasingly clear that you'll simply move the goalposts, change the discussion, change your position, and the fact that you simply don't like PC games. That's fine, just admit it, realize you're wrong about the INDUSTRY (read: the profits, revenues, business models), and move on.

If you'd like to criticize that industry for what you perceive as its failures: IE you clearly don't LIKE the MMO, you don't LIKE playing the same game for years, you don't LIKE online pc gaming...then fine, but your not liking it is irrelevant to the revenues generated thereby.

If its a dead industry, answer me why Blizzard and the half a dozen other highly successful companies have PC exclusives, and why they've got many more in development. The only possible explanation is that they want to lose money, and or that they need to hire you as a consultant.

Or alternatively, you're wrong about the industry and they plan to keep making massive profits.
 
altcon said:
Some stats for all the nay sayers.
I posted this thread since I am CONCERNED. I am a PC Gamer, I do not play on consoles (I just haven't found a remote I like better thn k+m).

http://forum.pcvsconsole.com/viewthread.php?tid=15831

Now, if you can all say that theres nothing there...well then you're denying something BIG, and it's gonna smack us all in the face.
Click to expand...

This list points out that PC gaming finally got competion worthy enough. That list doesn't show where the break down is though for consoles. 1999 was around the time when PS1 was about to finish up and move to PS2. Playstation 2 wasn't out and pretty much ruled the roost of console gaming for 6 years. But again where is the break down? PC gaming alone is shy of a 1 billion alone while PS2, Xbox, Gamecube all get lumped as one. Well shit 3 on 1 is pretty good numbers to add up.

PC = Sells 1 game
PS2 = Sells 1 game
Gamecube = Sells 1 game
Xbox = Sells 1 game

Consoles sell =3 games while PC sells 1!! PC gaming is Dying!

Competion is spreading consumers dollars over 4(5) systems these days. So ya, you have more choices. Oh dear. Thanks for showing a list that has 7.4 Billion in total software games sold but showing that a little less than a billion of that is made up of PC games and all Consoles and all handhelds made the rest
 
Ethug said:
....7 year development cycles dont drive an industry. Not to mention the amount of money invested in such a dev. cycle had to be incredibly high. Do you even understand economics? How much PROFIT did it actually make?
Click to expand...

You don't seem to understand economics at all, since all you seem to want to do is discount the massive amounts of money being made by the industry, many of it coming from new business models. Economics clearly shows that if all of these companies were losing money, they would have switched development to the supposed awesomeness that is consoles. How's that world of warcraft Xbox 360 port going? How about that upcoming starcraft 2 on the ps3?

Dead industry.....yeah.
 
I just have a hard time with how everything on this forum becomes a hate filled shit slinging fest when you present facts and detailed arguements. Some of you might not want the facts to be the way they are, but that does not change them.

As a summary (since the new people apparently didn't bother to read the earlier pages)
http://forum.pcvsconsole.com/viewthread.php?tid=15831
http://www.answers.com/topic/decline-of-pc-game-sales-in-the-us

You have information here showing that Consoles are stomping the living shit out of PCs. You can add several hundred million to the PC side of things if it makes you feel better, because you still are not approaching console revenue.

The problem with subscriptions to things like WoW that so many of you want to dredge up, is that you have what, 8.5 million people playing it for years. This is 8.5 million people who would have spent money buying other pc titles.

Its filling the bank for one company, while other, smaller developers bring titles to market that sit on the shelf and die. Then that developer dies, or turns to console development.

Some of you don't seem to be able to understand how this is bad. I can't put it more simply than the above explanation.

You have one very small group of games killing the market. This is reflected by the absolute fact that in 1999 the PC market was bringing in more revenue (with WAY fewer pc users) than in 2006 (Even adding in hundreds of millions in online sales just for shits and giggles).

Thats how I feel, thats how I've presented my facts. If you see things differently, good for you.

Time will bear one of us out to be right.
 
Ethug said:
I just have a hard time with how everything on this forum becomes a hate filled shit slinging fest when you present facts and detailed arguements. Some of you might not want the facts to be the way they are, but that does not change them.

As a summary (since the new people apparently didn't bother to read the earlier pages)
http://forum.pcvsconsole.com/viewthread.php?tid=15831
http://www.answers.com/topic/decline-of-pc-game-sales-in-the-us

You have information here showing that Consoles are stomping the living shit out of PCs. You can add several hundred million to the PC side of things if it makes you feel better, because you still are not approaching console revenue.

The problem with subscriptions to things like WoW that so many of you want to dredge up, is that you have what, 8.5 million people playing it for years. This is 8.5 million people who would have spent money buying other pc titles.

Its filling the bank for one company, while other, smaller developers bring titles to market that sit on the shelf and die. Then that developer dies, or turns to console development.

Some of you don't seem to be able to understand how this is bad. I can't put it more simply than the above explanation.

You have one very small group of games killing the market. This is reflected by the absolute fact that in 1999 the PC market was bringing in more revenue (with WAY fewer pc users) than in 2006 (Even adding in hundreds of millions in online sales just for shits and giggles).

Thats how I feel, thats how I've presented my facts. If you see things differently, good for you.

Time will bear one of us out to be right.
Click to expand...

So the essence of your argument then is that because consoles have grown at a greater rate than pc gaming (which may or may not have declined, your numbers have zero methodology and sources, and don't include steam, mmos, gametap, and so on) then PC gaming is a dead industry.

I shouldn't even have to point out the logical fallacy in that reasoning. Find me one person in this thread who has denied that Console gaming is more popular, generates more revenue, has a greater rate of revenue growth. I'll wait.

Ok, now that we know that no rational person is denying those things, lets go ahead and point out that console success doesn't now, in the past, or in the future mean that PC gaming is, was, has or will die.

As long as its profitable, and it is, indisputably, it will continue to live, and thrive like it is now because it is a different market. Get it?

If you'd stop using hyperbole and making overblown pronouncements that fly in the face of every industry professional who's out there making money hand over fist on PC games, then you might have a shred of credibility.
 
Technoob said:
If you'd stop using hyperbole and making overblown pronouncements that fly in the face of every industry professional who's out there making money hand over fist on PC games, then you might have a shred of credibility.
Click to expand...

All you do is cry about "credibility" and "overblown pronouncements" when you have presented NOTHING other than "well I think its like this". You've done nothing but whine, call names, and deny facts. You have yet to present evidence or logical argument as to WHY I'm supposedly wrong.

You DON'T LIKE the things presented, I get that. So stop whining about it and show me differently?
 
Just look at the sliding scale in this thread. First PC gaming was dead because gamestop doesn't sell pc games anymore. When pointed out that GS has made a consistent corporate change to their business model, then the goalposts move to the next supposed theory.

It's illogical and tiresome, and mostly driven by people who seem less interested in the facts about the industry, and more in bashing genres and business models that they personally don't like (online pc games have more cheats! I don't like MMOs! and so on).
 
Ethug said:
All you do is cry about "credibility" and "overblown pronouncements" when you have presented NOTHING other than "well I think its like this". You've done nothing but whine, call names, and deny facts. You have yet to present evidence or logical argument as to WHY I'm supposedly wrong.

You DON'T LIKE the things presented, I get that. So stop whining about it and show me differently?
Click to expand...

I've pointed out repeatedly that the industry itself proves your theories wrong. You've given one chart, which I've addressed, repeatedly, and you've failed to address my responses to that chart.

On one side we have dozens of successful multimillion dollar businesses making a profit, on the other side, we have you telling us the industry in which they are doing so is DEAD. You tell me who I should believe.
 
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