Open letter to Microsoft :D

BoiseTech

Limp Gawd
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Please extend support for Windows 7 UNTIL you come out with a new OS. Hopefully similar to Win7. :)

Or live with the fact that the only constant in life is change and don't be so set in your ways? I upgrade to each new OS the day its released, I enjoy playing and and discovering things and within a few days I'm as fluent in the new OS as the old.
 

tedych

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Astrowind, I used to be like you. I spent 7 years of my life with Win7 (until 2017). I hated new Windowses very much, mostly by opinions from the internet and early tests in virtual machines.
After I quit Win7 and went ahead, I saw it's nowhere near so scary or evil as most tried to make out of it. I was even fast with liking Win10 (and Server 2016 for that matter).
I think you are being too conservative.\
Win10 is similar to Win7 :), just better :) . 2-3 years ago I wouldn't have believed I would say that one day.
 
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Win 10? Unless you are able to get the LTSB or LTSC version, windows 10 has some major issues for me:

Forced updates/upgrades that are for the most part untested and can cause your system to stop working correctly.
Forced reboots after the forced updates install.
No ability to stay in a certain version. Windows 10 gets new major versions that change, remove, and add functionality. Windows 8.1 and before stayed pretty static with major version releases.
Forced bloatware. You can remove it, but as soon as one of those major updates install they all get reinstalled with even more.
Cortana integration is forced.

I'm sure there are more, but those are the ones that I can remember right now.
 

Astrowind

Weaksauce
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One weird thing I can't even figure out is how can they announce Win7 extended support ending January 2020 but MAINSTREAM support for Win10 is ending October 2020. I mean even if you buy Win10 in January 2020 you'd get mainstream support for 9 months? Haha, this is laughable for a company of this size.
 

Lunar

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One weird thing I can't even figure out is how can they announce Win7 extended support ending January 2020 but MAINSTREAM support for Win10 is ending October 2020. I mean even if you buy Win10 in January 2020 you'd get mainstream support for 9 months? Haha, this is laughable for a company of this size.
MS has shifted to a rolling style model. What they're doing is ending support for older releases essentially. For instance, while Windows 8.1 is still supported, support for 8 has either already ended or is ending soon. I believe it has already ended. Windows 10 will be much the same except it seems to be based more on build numbers.
 

Dreamerbydesign

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Or live with the fact that the only constant in life is change and don't be so set in your ways? I upgrade to each new OS the day its released, I enjoy playing and and discovering things and within a few days I'm as fluent in the new OS as the old.
Honestly I haven’t touched 7 since I worked on a clients computer a few months back. I’ve been on 10 since launch. Headaches and all.
 

bigdogchris

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liliff

n00b
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MS has shifted to a rolling style model.
Is that like the rolling release model on Linux distributions like Arch/Gentoo, in that you never have to actually "upgrade" to new major releases and just use Windows Update (or whatever) to download software updates/patches regularly?
 

Astrowind

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Win 8.1 and 10 both were worthy upgrades for me.

I think one of the biggest issues I've seen is the forced reboots and Win10 re-installing things you've deleted. Among other things, the square tiles make me want to hurl.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and the spying.
 

ChadD

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Is that like the rolling release model on Linux distributions like Arch/Gentoo, in that you never have to actually "upgrade" to new major releases and just use Windows Update (or whatever) to download software updates/patches regularly?

That is supposed to be the idea yes.
MS has two end user testing "rings" if you run a RC version of windows there is a fast version that gets the newest testing patches well fast. And a slower one which gets them a while later or slower. lol

Arch and Gentoo get stuff hot of the press as well like MS "Fast" ring. The difference is imo the Linux direct from GIT distros get more testing in a away as the code is open and rarely does anything get pushed to a major project without multiple eyes on almost every bit of code. MS doesn't seem to have the same bit of internal double and triple checking going on... so more crap creeps in.

Linux also has a distro like Manjaro for instance... which uses the Arch base but holds all version X.X.0 (first version releases) until there is at least one bug release (X.X.1) As an example MESA 18.3.0 would never come to Manjaro... but 18.3.1 would. They do some of their own testing. (pure arch is basically Manjaros "unstable" repositories) So in many ways Manjaro is more like Microsofts "slow" ring. Its rolling and you get all the latest greatest pretty fast (in general 1-6 weeks behind arch) and you never have to upgrade your installation.

IMO Ms needs to open source more of their OS. I know most people think it would be crazy to open source the MS windows kernel and low level systems. But really why not. Keep directx closed source forcing any windows respins to use wine for games (that aren't using vulkan anyway). No big business is going to dump windows enterprise for a open source version of windows... and PC manufacturers will keep shipping real windows as MS basically gives it away anyway... so why not. The advantage... they can stop chasing windows illegal copies in poor markets. (they stopped years ago for the most part anyway). They make almost no money on windows home and even pro at this point... all the now little money they make on the OS comes from enterprise which won't be effected. However their issue with updates would sort it self pretty quickly if 100 of eyeballs got on broken code in the fast ring. No more end user updates that delete pictures out of peoples personal directories, or stop their machines from booting ect.
 

liliff

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Wow, that's actually pretty neat and totally a step in the right direction imo (n.b. I've been an Arch user for almost a decade now). As for MS making money, I'd imagine a lot comes from other endeavours like Azure nowadays, too.
 

tedych

Limp Gawd
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Sh* happens everywhere, more on Windows because it's 10 times more used on desktops where "dumb" users are.
I might have been lucky because I have had no problems with win10 updates so far. On several installations. The last "big" bug in October affected small number of users in a specific scenario. As with everything about MS, it has been overly exaggerated because a) "dumb" users don't make backups before major upgrades or updates (not even regular backups), b) this hype forced MS to react in a hectic haste by pulling back the update for 2-3 weeks, more than the bug's severity itself.
People get more sensitive than ever now, not only in software/computer world.
MS had to maybe lower their update standards, but this was the next big change in a BIG corporation and BIG corporations are conservative and slow. So even this is fast for them. Updates get better over time, after the initial drop in quality.
 

Ryom

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I have used both and prefer Windows 7. A Win7 build with new technology would destroy Win10's market share overnight. I actually like being in charge of my computer, instead of my computer telling me how it's gonna be.
 

tedych

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...I actually like being in charge of my computer, instead of my computer telling me how it's gonna be.
This is the next of thousands of myths and nonsense people keep repeating to the point of being dead annoying. Win10 is almost no different than Win7. It just has few new annoyances and one idea more "spying", and almost all of those can be disabled, uninstalled or turned off. The most dreaded annoyance is the default settings for updates and these can be remedied very easily with all built-in means. I have few 10s I set up with defaults, only disabled updates through group policy and all is Ok, I have some 10s I setup with all defaults, they "offer" updates and restart, which of course can be catastrophic, but whoever uses their OS without seting it up a little.... is equally uninterested whether they use 7 or 10.
 

Ryom

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This is the next of thousands of myths and nonsense people keep repeating to the point of being dead annoying. Win10 is almost no different than Win7. It just has few new annoyances and one idea more "spying", and almost all of those can be disabled, uninstalled or turned off. The most dreaded annoyance is the default settings for updates and these can be remedied very easily with all built-in means. I have few 10s I set up with defaults, only disabled updates through group policy and all is Ok, I have some 10s I setup with all defaults, they "offer" updates and restart, which of course can be catastrophic, but whoever uses their OS without seting it up a little.... is equally uninterested whether they use 7 or 10.

And programs like candy crush or whatnot being "helpfully" re-added during Win10 updates? My Win7 has zero telemetry and no real annoyances. It does exactly what I tell it to and nothing else without hoops to jump through.

Windows 7 is a program sold to users, Win10 is a program selling you to marketers.
 
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NoOther

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And programs like candy crush or whatnot being "helpfully" re-added during Win10 updates? My Win7 has zero telemetry and no real annoyances. It does exactly what I tell it to and nothing else without hoops to jump through.

Windows 7 is a program sold to users, Win10 is a program selling you to marketers.

Windows 7 has telemetry, so unless you turned it off, it is there.
 

Biznatch

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Win 10? Unless you are able to get the LTSB or LTSC version, windows 10 has some major issues for me:

Forced updates/upgrades that are for the most part untested and can cause your system to stop working correctly.
Forced reboots after the forced updates install.
No ability to stay in a certain version. Windows 10 gets new major versions that change, remove, and add functionality. Windows 8.1 and before stayed pretty static with major version releases.
Forced bloatware. You can remove it, but as soon as one of those major updates install they all get reinstalled with even more.
Cortana integration is forced.

I'm sure there are more, but those are the ones that I can remember right now.


Unless they've updated the LTSC branch version since I used it last, it's missing the ability to install the bash subsystem, which is REALLY useful for me. No longer need to run a linux VM for linux administration stuff.

Items 1 and 2 can be fixed by clicking the defer upgrades checkbox. That will delay patches for 3 months I believe, which should be plenty of time to let others test before installing. And you may hate it, but it's the same thing apple does. Plus it's mainly to prevent the typical idiot user from never patching their system and getting all kinds of malware on their system from browsing the web.

For the other items, just get one of the MANY prewritten powershell scripts online and just run it after the update to remove/disable any shit you don't need. That seems like a very small price to pay to keep your system secure.
 

SvenBent

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Win 10? Unless you are able to get the LTSB or LTSC version, windows 10 has some major issues for me:

Forced updates/upgrades that are for the most part untested and can cause your system to stop working correctly.
Forced reboots after the forced updates install.
No ability to stay in a certain version. Windows 10 gets new major versions that change, remove, and add functionality. Windows 8.1 and before stayed pretty static with major version releases.
Forced bloatware. You can remove it, but as soon as one of those major updates install they all get reinstalled with even more.
Cortana integration is forced.

I'm sure there are more, but those are the ones that I can remember right now.

Lesbian Trysexyal Straight Bisexual?
No windows for gay men ?
 

Ryom

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Windows 7 has telemetry, so unless you turned it off, it is there.

I turned it off, along with the further updates after they started doing roll-ups (which I can actually do, because it's not Win10). There was a time when the CIA used a vaccination program to spy in Pakistan. When it was discovered, people started refusing vaccinations due to their trust being abused. This is the same thing that happened when MS started sneaking Telemetry in. People deselected telemetry updates, so they started doing "Roll-ups" to avoid that. Then people stopped updating all-together. Trust is hard to gain and easy to lose, and I don't trust the new MS leadership to have their users best interest in mind, as the new MS OS team is a marketing team and not a software team... along with the fact that they fired their QA update team makes it dangerous to trust their updates now.

The Win10 hate is a direct result of MS abusing their customer's trust in far too many ways.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-cia-fake-vaccination-campaign-endangers-us-all/
 
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NoOther

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I turned it off, along with the further updates after they started doing roll-ups (which I can actually do, because it's not Win10). There was a time when the CIA used a vaccination program to spy in Pakistan. When it was discovered, people started refusing vaccinations due to their trust being abused. This is the same thing that happened with MS started sneaking Telemetry in. People deselected telemetry updates, so they started doing "Roll-ups" do avoid that. Then people stopped updating all-together. Trust is hard to gain and easy to lose, and I don't trust the new MS leadership to have their users best interest in mind, as the new MS OS team is a marketing company and not a software company... along with the fact that they fired their QA update team makes it dangerous to trust their updates now.

The Win10 hate is a direct result of MS abusing their customer's trust in far too many ways.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-cia-fake-vaccination-campaign-endangers-us-all/

I would say 90% of those people also have absolutely no idea what data is being gathered or how it is being used. Even though it has been answered by Microsoft a number of times. And just for the record, they have done the same rollup telemetry updates in 7 as they have in 10. You can also do many things to turn off telemetry in 10. So I am not sure how you are distinguishing them?

And please, spare me the incredibly terrible false equivalency to vaccines...
 

Ryom

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I would say 90% of those people also have absolutely no idea what data is being gathered or how it is being used. Even though it has been answered by Microsoft a number of times. And just for the record, they have done the same rollup telemetry updates in 7 as they have in 10. You can also do many things to turn off telemetry in 10. So I am not sure how you are distinguishing them?

And please, spare me the incredibly terrible false equivalency to vaccines...

False equivalence? "You abuse trust, you lose trust" is directly equivalent, and it doesn't matter what the example is. Telemetry in consumer W10 cannot be fully disabled, except by blocking it at the network level. I don't like W10, I posted why, THIS THREAD IS A WIN7 LOVE-IN, so I don't understand why you are taking umbrage at me explaining my Win10 hate here. I don't generally pop into "I love WIN 10!!!!" threads and shit in them and expect to be praised for it.

Maybe don't stroll into a "I love Win7" thread expecting to hear endless praise of Win10?
 
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NoOther

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False equivalence? "You abuse trust, you lose trust" is directly equivalent, and it doesn't matter what the example is. Telemetry in consumer W10 cannot be fully disabled, except by blocking it at the network level. I don't like W10, I posted why, THIS THREAD IS A WIN7 LOVE-IN, so I don't understand why you are taking umbrage at me explaining my Win10 hate here. I don't generally pop into "I love WIN 10!!!!" threads and shit in them and expect to be praised for it.

Maybe don't stroll into a "I love Win7" thread expecting to hear endless praise of Win10?

I didn't take any umbrage with not liking Win10. I simply commented on your statement about Win7 and telemetry, you made it sound like Win7 was superior because it didn't have telemetry, but it does. It also includes telemetry in "roll-ups". In those ways it is similar to Win10.

What I did take umbrage with equating a misunderstanding about telemetry and what it collects with a more dangerous health risk. They are not equivalent situations. The fallout from the vaccine is immeasurably worse than telemetry data. And telemetry isn't stopping people from using computers...the way the false vaccine caused people to stop getting vaccines. Although if you do want to equate the two, then you also must admit people avoiding telemetry are doing it out of ignorance as in the vaccine scare, not out of informed decision making.
 

Ryom

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Updates inoculate PCs from exploits which is why I made the vaccine comparison in the first place. People have stopped updating (there have been COUNTLESS posts in many tech forums saying so) due to the change in trust in MS. This is not so crazy a comparison.

I've said my piece and I'm done here.
 

Hagrid

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Why not load 10 then use something like classic shell to make it like 7? The enterprise version without all the crap is supposed to be good.(with 3rd party software)
 

chockomonkey

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Win 10 def has it's faults. And ryom is right about it being a trust issue. I've been using it for awhile since I wanted to learn it, but two things still bug the ever living shit out of me:

1. the Windows update nag and forced reboots. No matter what you set in the settings, it still has a mind of it's own. I can't tell you how many times I've been in the middle of a game and had my os bump me out to try to make me update or reboot. What makes it more aggravating is their cutesy bullshit verbiage. And then to have some applications open or something pending and have it reboot overnight and you lose it. Yeah sure, I should have saved my snip before going to bed. But also, my operating system should not force close applications with unsaved work.

2. The absurdity of the Settings UI. They constantly make me go through that stupid thing to get to whatever real thing I'm after. Add to this the intentionality behind leaving the real settings out of the index.. just blows my mind. I type "programs and features"... Only apps and programs show up. Okay msft you want me to go to that just to click programs and features in related settings. Cool. Again, I understand that i can just go to the control panel, and I do, but the arrogance that is behind this kind of bullheaded nonsense is extremely off-putting and has tainted what little trust Microsoft had with me.
 
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tedych

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chockomonkey, while #1 is a PITA indeed, it can be stopped easily in at least Win10 Pro and above. "No matter what you set in the settings"... is wrong unless you only meant Settings (app).
#2 is too small price to pay as others have said. Annoying - sure, stupid - sure, but once I set things up I don't bother with those double control panels anymore, or at least mostly once in a year.
That said, of course there is some degradation in UX but overall I have no drama and the new start menu is better for me, even if initially I had mixed feelings. After all, what matters is if you can do your work as before. I can. Updates disabled or postponed for at least few months and at least for the last 2 years, it seems Ok with no drama.
 

M76

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Astrowind, I used to be like you. I spent 7 years of my life with Win7 (until 2017). I hated new Windowses very much, mostly by opinions from the internet and early tests in virtual machines.
After I quit Win7 and went ahead, I saw it's nowhere near so scary or evil as most tried to make out of it. I was even fast with liking Win10 (and Server 2016 for that matter).
I think you are being too conservative.\
Win10 is similar to Win7 :), just better :) . 2-3 years ago I wouldn't have believed I would say that one day.
I've been using W10 for 3 years, and don't hate it any less now than I did then. And it is only getting worse with every update. Microsoft came out with 8, which was 10 steps back from 7, then they released 8.1 which took off two steps, making it 8 steps behind 7. And then along came 10 only 2 steps behind 7 initally, taking one step back with every biannual update.
 

SvenBent

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I would say 90% of those people also have absolutely no idea what data is being gathered or how it is being used. Even though it has been answered by Microsoft a number of times. And just for the record, they have done the same rollup telemetry updates in 7 as they have in 10. You can also do many things to turn off telemetry in 10. So I am not sure how you are distinguishing them?

And please, spare me the incredibly terrible false equivalency to vaccines...


nobody made a compariosn betwenewindows an vaccines. that is solely on you not to understand it was an examples of lost trust.
 

Lunar

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I've been using W10 for 3 years, and don't hate it any less now than I did then. And it is only getting worse with every update. Microsoft came out with 8, which was 10 steps back from 7, then they released 8.1 which took off two steps, making it 8 steps behind 7. And then along came 10 only 2 steps behind 7 initally, taking one step back with every biannual update.
I have to disagree with you on 8. Sure, the UI had some issues if you like the classic style start menu, but beyond that Windows 8 and especially 8.1 were pretty damn solid. The under the hood changes MS made removed a lot of inefficient legacy code, which led to a much faster feeling desktop. Windows 7 was a great OS for sure, but it had a lot of under the hood crap that severely hampered performance. Since MS targeted low power devices with 8, it resulted in some pretty great performance improvements on the desktop as well.

I know this is an unpopular opinion, but outside of the start menu changes I honestly fail to understand the hate Windows 8 got. The core OS tools and utilities functioned the same, the OS was stable and fast, and compatibility issues weren't a huge problem. Install Classic Shell, and you pretty much solved the start menu issue. I think it was unfairly compared to Vista, because unlike Vista, Windows 8 worked.
 

NoOther

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nobody made a compariosn betwenewindows an vaccines. that is solely on you not to understand it was an examples of lost trust.

I was speaking about the example. The situations are completely different, I even alluded to a few ways they are different. I am sorry you cannot grasp the difference.
 

AltTabbins

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I think there are 2 things that are going to be interesting to watch in the future with Windows 7 people not wanting to upgrade.

1 - Windows 7 support officially ends at the end of this year. Using an unsupported OS is pretty frowned upon here. If you opened a thread saying you are using Vista or XP, you'll get pages of replies of backlash.

2- Driver support. Skylake and Ryzen cpus and their respective chipsets are officially unsupported by Windows. Skylake is now what.. 3 generations old? Ryzen is going on to their 3rd generation. I am building a 9900k system this weekend and there are no Windows 7 drivers for my chipset making it impossible to install and use Windows 7 on it. What happens when all the people who refuse to move to Windows 10 upgrade or buy new hardware?


It doesn't really matter if you like Windows 10 or not, Microsoft has no plans on a new OS. There will not be a Windows 11. Your options are to either use an unsupported Windows 7 (or 8.1 if you really want to delay it), use Windows 10, use Linux, or use OSX.
 
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I have to disagree with you on 8. Sure, the UI had some issues if you like the classic style start menu, but beyond that Windows 8 and especially 8.1 were pretty damn solid. The under the hood changes MS made removed a lot of inefficient legacy code, which led to a much faster feeling desktop. Windows 7 was a great OS for sure, but it had a lot of under the hood crap that severely hampered performance. Since MS targeted low power devices with 8, it resulted in some pretty great performance improvements on the desktop as well.

I know this is an unpopular opinion, but outside of the start menu changes I honestly fail to understand the hate Windows 8 got. The core OS tools and utilities functioned the same, the OS was stable and fast, and compatibility issues weren't a huge problem. Install Classic Shell, and you pretty much solved the start menu issue. I think it was unfairly compared to Vista, because unlike Vista, Windows 8 worked.
I have to agree 100%. Windows 8.1 has the core of 10, but without all the crap. Simply install classic shell and you have a winner. I'm on 7, but I have a 8.1 version ready to take it's place on my desktop.
 

NoOther

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I think there are 2 things that are going to be interesting to watch in the future with Windows 7 people not wanting to upgrade.

1 - Windows 7 support officially ends at the end of this year. Using an unsupported OS is pretty frowned upon here. If you opened a thread saying you are using Vista or XP, you'll get pages of replies of backlash.

I would say backlash is pretty harsh. You will likely get a lot of people wondering why you would continue to use an older OS and try to provide examples of why a newer one would be a better solution. And a lot of that has to do with #2.

2- Driver support. Skylake and Ryzen cpus and their respective chipsets are officially unsupported by Windows. I am building a 9900k system this weekend and there are no Windows 7 drivers for my chipset making it impossible to install and use Windows 7 on it. What happens when all the people who refuse to move to Windows 10 upgrade or buy new hardware?

Driver support is almost always going to be an issue. But that is an issue for anything older. I have issues right now with my mobo and getting correct drivers for it because it is so old. There aren't dedicated Win10 drivers for some of the stuff on the mobo like there were for Win7.

I would say the biggest problem is actually vulnerabilities. As it ages and doesn't receive support, there are going to be more and more security holes that are discovered.
 

Hagrid

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I would say backlash is pretty harsh. You will likely get a lot of people wondering why you would continue to use an older OS and try to provide examples of why a newer one would be a better solution. And a lot of that has to do with #2.



Driver support is almost always going to be an issue. But that is an issue for anything older. I have issues right now with my mobo and getting correct drivers for it because it is so old. There aren't dedicated Win10 drivers for some of the stuff on the mobo like there were for Win7.

I would say the biggest problem is actually vulnerabilities. As it ages and doesn't receive support, there are going to be more and more security holes that are discovered.
I hate 10 just as much as when it first came out but MS is pushing for games to be 10 only. In some cases the games are made with DX12 only, so that is a must anyways.
I understand people hating it, since MS makes it super easy. But yeah, it would just be easier to switch over and learn how to make it more like 7 and get rid of the bloat, telemetry, adware, etc, so forth.
 
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