OLED Monitors

[mike_j_johnson]

Has anyone heard of upcoming OLED monitors besides the existing Sony ones? I cannot wait until the prices come down on these things!

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-monitors/cat-oledmonitors/


The PVM2541 would be perfect if it wasnt $6100! 0_o

 

[Mixre]

WTF! That is ridiculous!
They have to be coming down soon I'm seeing even LED's dropping pretty rapidly in stores.

 

[Makeroflostsouls]

I bet the picture on that thing is sexy

 

[Spartan805]

OOOOOOLED!!!!!! Nice I'd be happy with a 24" beast.

 

[okashira]

25" for $6100

just think, non pro monitor and larger quantity sales... seems like it could go for $2000 or less easy if they made one. I can wait, want to pay some debt and I want one a year or less from now. Listening, Sony?

 

[mathesar]

Wow the 25" would be an amazing monitor, hopefully Sony plans on making a consumer model.

 

[Nightbird]

Depends on the input lag, these are hardly designed with gamers in mind. That been said, super smooth 120hz or higher would be possible and better 3D should be too far off in the future. It'll definitely be well after my next display though :/

 

[wasserkool]

WTF! That is ridiculous!
They have to be coming down soon I'm seeing even LED's dropping pretty rapidly in stores.

POS LED TV price drop has nothing to do with OLED introduction lol...it is at least a few years away.

The encouraging thing is if the professional markets are starting to use OLED en masse that means one day it will trickle down to consumer market and technology will not just become a vaporware. Hey let the pro market fund the R&D and production of these panels first!

 

[jeremyshaw]

POS LED TV price drop has nothing to do with OLED introduction lol...it is at least a few years away.

The encouraging thing is if the professional markets are starting to use OLED en masse that means one day it will trickle down to consumer market and technology will not just become a vaporware. Hey let the pro market fund the R&D and production of these panels first!

And the laptop market, since that area always commands a premium, and has smaller displays too

 

[Oled]

16:9 has much higher resolution so far better to go with that option!

 

[unrlmth]

I remember seeing one of the Sony ones at Fry's a year or two ago. It was around 8 inches and $1-2k, looked great though.

 

[steal]

I remember seeing one of the Sony ones at Fry's a year or two ago. It was around 8 inches and $1-2k, looked great though.

Yep, and the XEL-1 (the display you're talking about) still set a benchmark that hasn't been reached as far as contrast ratios and black levels go. There are LCD panels out there, like some of the new Sonys that do have "perfect" blacks in certain areas, but they're not without poor response time and halos from local dimming.

 

[Ephesos]

Offtopic:

16:9 has much higher resolution so far better to go with that option!

Huh ? 16:9 is just the aspect ration, it could have more or less res than a 16:10 display, or any other format.

Ontopic: these aren't targeted to consumers, we will probably see more affordable oled monitors/tvs in 2012. Hopefully, they won't start marketing displays with white oled backlight and current generation panels as "OLED Monitors".

 

[jeremyshaw]

Offtopic:


Huh ? 16:9 is just the aspect ration, it could have more or less res than a 16:10 display, or any other format.

Ontopic: these aren't targeted to consumers, we will probably see more affordable oled monitors/tvs in 2012. Hopefully, they won't start marketing displays with white oled backlight and current generation panels as "OLED Monitors".

Maybe of the 5 monitors Sony has, the 16:9 options have higher res. I cannot verify, since Sony's website is worthless.

 

[Oled]

Offtopic:


Huh ? 16:9 is just the aspect ration, it could have more or less res than a 16:10 display, or any other format.

IPS 16:9 in that size are 2560x1440. But the 16:10 screens only has the shitty resolution of 1920x1200.

16:9>>16:10

 

[Ephesos]

they are all 1920x1080, except the 7.4" one.

 

[Oled]

they are all 1920x1080, except the 7.4" one.

Bullshit!

All 16:9 IPS 27" are 2560x1440.

All 16:10 IPS 26-27" are 1920x1200.

16:10 monitors usually has shitty resolution.

 

[Ephesos]

4 of the 5 displays in that link are 1920x1080, i wasn't referring to the entire display market :|.

You seem to miss something, any display that has, let's say 10000 pixels on it's length will have more pixels on it's height if it sports a ratio of 16:10, and less if it is 16:9.

There is nothing stopping panel manufacturers from making 16:10 27" panels, with 2560x1600 pixels .

For you consideration, lenovo had a 22" 16:10 display with 3840×2400 pixels.

When 16:9 and and 16:10 displays have the same longitudinal number of pixels, the 16:10 one will have more overall pixels.

 

[Makeroflostsouls]

An OLED is the only thing that will replace my dell 3007wfp-hc. They better come out with a 2560x1600 one. I dont think I could ever go back to 1920x1200. Cant wait to see one of these in person.

 

[quantum112]

Drop the 16:9 vs 16:10 debate. Nobody gives a damn what you think is better, everyone will buy what they like anyway.

Now back on topic.

Yes, it is fairly good that the prices are coming down as much as they are, I still don't get exactly why people are comparing LCD's and LED(hooray for false marketing)-backlit LCD's with a technology such as OLED, you don't need to go far beyond the concept of how these things work to see how OLED is far superior in every aspect of real world performance... LCD has had its back against the wall for a good few years now and it's only a matter of time before it's scrubbed out, and good riddance I say.

I think it's about time we finally start using technologies which actually deliver noticeable improvements in picture quality and not in...size and weight.

P.S. 176x220 is the largest LCD in my house...it's on my cellphone

 

[Oled]

Now back on topic.

Yes, it is fairly good that the prices are coming down as much as they are, I still don't get exactly why people are comparing LCD's and LED(hooray for false marketing)-backlit LCD's with a technology such as OLED, you don't need to go far beyond the concept of how these things work to see how OLED is far superior in every aspect of real world performance... LCD has had its back against the wall for a good few years now and it's only a matter of time before it's scrubbed out, and good riddance I say.

I think it's about time we finally start using technologies which actually deliver noticeable improvements in picture quality and not in...size and weight.

P.S. 176x220 is the largest LCD in my house...it's on my cellphone

I think the main problem is that most people dont care about imagequality. As long as it are cheap and looks nice people will buy it.

 

[Inu]

My guess is 95% of monitor based purchases are for people who only browse the internet and check email. So from a business standpoint that would make sense.

 

[x3sphere]

Depends on the input lag, these are hardly designed with gamers in mind. That been said, super smooth 120hz or higher would be possible and better 3D should be too far off in the future. It'll definitely be well after my next display though :/

OLED is capable of 0.01ms response times, basically CRT-like. Though it's possible these Sony monitors have a bunch of processing junk added into the mix that introduces input lag, since this is not a consumer display.

 

[mike_j_johnson]

If I had the money, I would definitely get the 25". Yeah, I might be crazy, but I know people that spend just as much if not more on other hobbies.

My only requirement is that it has some sort of internal LUT calibration feature like NEC PA series displays have. I plan to build another PC when Sandy Bridge E CPUs, chipsets & motherboards hit the first of next year, so hopefully the price on these displays come down about half (I can wish cant I?). =P

 

[evilsofa]

My only requirement is that it has some sort of internal LUT calibration feature like NEC PA series displays have.

The details from the web page for the 25" model says, among other things:

"The PVM-2541 OLED panel features a Full HD resolution (1920 x 1080) and RBG 10-bit driver..."

"Sony OLED is a display device with a wide colour gamut offering not only colour gamuts of broadcast standards (ITU-R BT.709, EBU, SMPTE-C), but also offers the widest colour gamut of the Sony OLED panel."

"The PVM-2541 monitor incorporates a newly-developed OLED processor to bring out the full performance of the Sony OLED panels. This OLED processor offers superb uniformity across everywhere on the screen. At the factory, the OLED panel uniformity is precisely measured and corrected using a sophisticated RGB LUT (Look-Up Table) adjustment system."

On the Highlights page, there is some text which seems poorly formatted and maybe incomplete:

"The PVM-2541 monitor employs a software-based white balance calibration function, which is called AutoWhiteBalance. Combined with a PC and commercially available calibration tool*, this function enables simple adjustment of the monitor’s white balance. *The X-Rite Eye-one (i1) Pro Series
The PVM-2541 has an external remote control capability for input/output signal selection and adjustment of various items via Ethernet (10BASE-T/100BASETX) connection
The input signal’s waveform with a 2-channel audio level meter can be displayed on screen"

 

[Leopardi]

Next year 55" for $3000

http://smarthouse.com.au/TVs_And_Large_Display/OLED_TV/R6J8H7V6

 

[Ceporom]

It does seem quite likely to me that the production companies are going to aim for tv-panels first hand, and have their new business scaled up to include monitor production later on (save for maybe one or two high-end options?).

 

[Snowdog]

Next year 55" for $3000

http://smarthouse.com.au/TVs_And_Large_Display/OLED_TV/R6J8H7V6

Just two problems with that.

1: It won't happen. These companies announce intentions that they never deliver on.

LG first announced they would have a 20" + OLED in 2010. Never happened.
http://www.dailytech.com/OLED+Prices+to+be+Lower+than+LCD+in+2016/article16680.htm

Then they announced that 31" was coming this year. BTW they actually did give a price ballpark on the 31" and it was ~$9000 USD. No sign this one is coming either.
http://www.electronista.com/articles/10/09/03/lg.31.inch.oled.tv.a.real.march.production.model/

2: That price is nonsense. I read most of these dispatches and I read quotes from LG on the 55". They did not mention price. But I would say $10000+ if they actually did build it.

The pattern seems to be talk about next years bigger OLED, to distract from that fact that this years OLED never showed up.

Talk about the 31" to distract from the 20"+ that never showed up in 2010.
Now talk about the 55" to distract from 31" that isn't showing up this year.
I guess late next year they will be talking about the 60" in 2013....


Until you can buy it, these announcements mean nothing.

 

[Nightbird]

OLED is capable of 0.01ms response times, basically CRT-like. Though it's possible these Sony monitors have a bunch of processing junk added into the mix that introduces input lag, since this is not a consumer display.

Yep.

 

[Leopardi]

Just two problems with that.

1: It won't happen. These companies announce intentions that they never deliver on.

LG first announced they would have a 20" + OLED in 2010. Never happened.
http://www.dailytech.com/OLED+Prices+to+be+Lower+than+LCD+in+2016/article16680.htm

Then they announced that 31" was coming this year. BTW they actually did give a price ballpark on the 31" and it was ~$9000 USD. No sign this one is coming either.
http://www.electronista.com/articles/10/09/03/lg.31.inch.oled.tv.a.real.march.production.model/

2: That price is nonsense. I read most of these dispatches and I read quotes from LG on the 55". They did not mention price. But I would say $10000+ if they actually did build it.

The pattern seems to be talk about next years bigger OLED, to distract from that fact that this years OLED never showed up.

Talk about the 31" to distract from the 20"+ that never showed up in 2010.
Now talk about the 55" to distract from 31" that isn't showing up this year.
I guess late next year they will be talking about the 60" in 2013....


Until you can buy it, these announcements mean nothing.

The 15" LG OLED is 1500€ now, so the price actually sounds good with newer cheaper manufacturing mechanisms.

 

[mesyn191]

$6K? 1500K EUD?

Wow what a POS.

The whole point of OLED was that it was supposed to give you thinner, lighter, and cheaper screens than either LCD, plasma, or CRT. And it was supposed to have done it at least nearly 10 years ago now. If the only OLED's they can produce are as mediocre as this and for that high of a price after all these years then OLED's will probably never go anywhere.

 

[Snowdog]

The 15" LG OLED is 1500€ now, so the price actually sounds good with newer cheaper manufacturing mechanisms.

Fantasy always sounds good.

 

[limitedaccess]

Samsung optimistically predicts OLEDs to become mainstream for large displays in 2015.

 

[Blackbeard Ben]

$6K? 1500K EUD?

Wow what a POS.

The whole point of OLED was that it was supposed to give you thinner, lighter, and cheaper screens than either LCD, plasma, or CRT. And it was supposed to have done it at least nearly 10 years ago now. If the only OLED's they can produce are as mediocre as this and for that high of a price after all these years then OLED's will probably never go anywhere.

Yup, they suck and they'll never go anywhere. Just like this never went anywhere:

Plasma displays never went anywhere either - I mean, they only took 52 years to get this far:

And then another 10 years to mature to this:

And for that matter, 200 PPI, 3840x2400 monitors were in production 10 years ago but have yet to have go mainstream:

 

[mesyn191]

Yup, they suck and they'll never go anywhere. Just like this never went anywhere:

Past results aren't a predictor of future results. They've been working on OLED's for decades and have been saying they'll be the end all be all for over a decade and that they'll be out annnnnyyytime now.

Given how much the monitor manufacturer's lie about specs and release dates and performance of their current products you're a fool to put any faith in what they say.

 

[Blackbeard Ben]

Past results aren't a predictor of future results. They've been working on OLED's for decades and have been saying they'll be the end all be all for over a decade and that they'll be out annnnnyyytime now.

Given how much the monitor manufacturer's lie about specs and release dates and performance of their current products you're a fool to put any faith in what they say.

It's all about manufacturability. They're just not there yet, but they are getting closer. The specs and performance are already real - that's what OLED phone displays and those broadcast monitors are. They already outperform LCDs in most ways (especially the obvious response time and black luminance/contrast), and will continue to improve rapidly as they are an immature technology compared to relatively mature LCD tech.

This isn't some pie-in-the-sky technology like invisibility cloaks, flying cars, and jetpacks - production displays are already out there. The only reason we don't see cheap large OLED displays yet is because the manufacturing techniques and yields just aren't good enough to mass produce large ones affordably.

Just like any technology, you don't just go from concept to prototype to mass-market product overnight - it's only been two and a half years since Samsung showed its prototype 40 inch 1920x1080 OLED display.

 

[R3ckless]

In about 4-5 years they will be mainstream, right now they are an ultra luxury item most cannot afford. That being said if i had the funds to get one i would get one, you cant beat the vivid colors on an OLED or the black levels/contrast. When they become affordable everyone is going to want one.

 

[Snowdog]

In about 4-5 years they will be mainstream, right now they are an ultra luxury item most cannot afford. That being said if i had the funds to get one i would get one, you cant beat the vivid colors on an OLED or the black levels/contrast. When they become affordable everyone is going to want one.

They haven't even reached luxury item stage yet. They are at publicity stunt level.

Sony released an 11" model then did nothing. LG similarly with 15".

LG said 20"+ in 2010, never happened. They said 30"+ in 2011. No sign of that either.

It will be luxury item level when they actually release a real TV sized product, which LG is claiming will now happen next year. But believe that when you see it.

So 4-5 years to mainstream seems premature, 4 or 5 years after they actually ship a full size TV perhaps, but we aren't there yet.

 

[mesyn191]

It's all about manufacturability. They're just not there yet, but they are getting closer.

Yea I know that already. Everyone does. They've been saying that for a decade now. They can keep on saying it too but it won't make it so.

that's what OLED phone displays and those broadcast monitors are.

Everyone knows this too. It doesn't matter though because we're not talking about cell phone LCD's, we're talking about PC LCD monitors which is the market they have to target.

They already outperform LCDs in most ways (especially the obvious response time and black luminance/contrast), and will continue to improve rapidly as they are an immature technology compared to relatively mature LCD tech.

You sound like one of their sales reps you see at a trade show or something. Are you getting paid to say this or what?

This isn't some pie-in-the-sky technology like invisibility cloaks, flying cars, and jetpacks - production displays are already out there. The only reason we don't see cheap large OLED displays yet is because the manufacturing techniques and yields just aren't good enough to mass produce large ones affordably.

Also known and never said otherwise. The problem that you're spending so many words to avoid saying is that solving these things isn't necessarily a given. It may be that they can never produce a way to make an affordable OLED monitor that performs as good or better than current LCD's, much less is far cheaper like they've been saying for quite a while now.

Just like any technology, you don't just go from concept to prototype to mass-market product overnight - it's only been two and a half years since Samsung showed its prototype 40 inch 1920x1080 OLED display.

OLED's are old tech. They've been around for decades. I remember seeing stuff about them in the mid 90's but apparently they've been around in one form or another since the 1960's. THIS STUFF IS OLD. Fundamentally there is no difference in the way a cheapo cell phone OLED works and that 40" OLED TV, only the methods necessary to produce them which they still haven't figured out how to do affordably.

So 4-5 years to mainstream seems premature, 4 or 5 years after they actually ship a full size TV perhaps, but we aren't there yet.

This.

They're essentially at a prototype stage for large OLED's and have been for as long as I can remember. Seriously if you've been following this stuff closely for a decade or more you'd know all this and be appropriately cynical/jaded.

The real deal breaker for this tech is that regular old LCD's keep getting cheaper to make and OLED just never seems to live up to its promises. At the same time its going to require lots of advances in some fundamental materials sciences to pull off, which is expensive and time consuming. 5 years for a high end rich play boy toy is probably optimistic.

 

[Blackbeard Ben]

Yea I know that already. Everyone does. They've been saying that for a decade now. They can keep on saying it too but it won't make it so.

No, but they're getting closer and closer. That's the point. They have been all along.

I don't ever take any company's word as to when future products are going to be released, unless they have production prototypes ready from the factory with distribution imminent. To think otherwise is to be foolish - and it seems that you've been taking their bait at face all along, only recently realizing that promises are far different than actual products.

Everyone knows this too. It doesn't matter though because we're not talking about cell phone LCD's, we're talking about PC LCD monitors which is the market they have to target.

No, this matters incredibly much. It means that the manufacturing techniques and yields for OLEDs have progressed to the point where small displays are commercially viable on the largest scale, and that for medium sized displays (i.e. monitors) they've reached the point that high-end displays are commercially viable. That wasn't the case seven years ago, when manufacturing techniques had reached the point that prototypes were possible. Before that, we didn't even have prototypes of RGB OLED displays, period. They were fantasy then; now they're a reality.

You sound like one of their sales reps you see at a trade show or something. Are you getting paid to say this or what?

Is this a serious question? You know, honestly I'd love to get paid for posting on internet forums but unfortunately that's not the case. I'm a recently graduated engineer, if you have to know.

Also known and never said otherwise. The problem that you're spending so many words to avoid saying is that solving these things isn't necessarily a given. It may be that they can never produce a way to make an affordable OLED monitor that performs as good or better than current LCD's, much less is far cheaper like they've been saying for quite a while now.

No, increasing manufacturability and increasing yields is a given! The question isn't "if", it's "when". We're not talking about theoreticals here - we're talking about improving existing techniques that are already used to make current OLED displays so that yields are high enough to support price-competitive displays with LCDs and plasmas. Yes, it means developing new manufacturing technology - just like was done for LCDs, plasmas, plastics, carbon fiber parts, machined parts, etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum. Not a product that can't even be made yet - just one that can't be made efficiently yet which has developing techniques that will make it very much so.

OLED's are old tech. They've been around for decades. I remember seeing stuff about them in the mid 90's but apparently they've been around in one form or another since the 1960's. THIS STUFF IS OLD. Fundamentally there is no difference in the way a cheapo cell phone OLED works and that 40" OLED TV, only the methods necessary to produce them which they still haven't figured out how to do affordably.

And production LCDs and plasmas are far, far older. THAT SHIT IS EVEN OLDER. OLED displays are going through the exact same development process as LCD and plasma displays. Well, really plasma displays as they're limited in minimum size comparatively, but yes, for LCDs - in consumer products progressing from small displays to large displays over an extended period of time.

The Casio TV-1000 (a portable color TV), probably the first mass produced full color LCD product, was released in 1985 - the first larger production LCD TV being a very expensive 14" Sharp model in 1988. It was until about 15 years after the Sharp that consumer 42" LCD TVs started production - manufacturing yields of larger displays being the same issue as for OLED displays.

The first mass market consumer product with a color OLED display? As far as I can tell, a Kodak camera with a 2.2" screen in 2003. 18 years after the first comparable color LCD product. The first production OLED TV was the 2007 Sony XEL-1, four years later - on par with color LCDs' development.

Now, I don't think it necessarily will be 2022 before we see very large production OLED displays, but that wouldn't surprise me (with smaller monitors/TVs coming first of course). The reason I say that odds are it will be sooner is that there's no competition from a superior large-display technology (i.e. LCDs vs. plasma displays), we're seeing an unprecedented explosion of smaller and large, high quality OLED panels that didn't happen with color LCDs at the same rate, and the continuing development of substrate printing techniques. But that's just an estimated probability by me, a layman, no more.

By no means is the refinement of manufacturing techniques for large OLED displays taking an abnormally long amount of time - but it is an inevitable process now. Its only close competitors - SED and FED displays - are abandoned (the former) and years behind in development (the latter). LCDs will never overcome their technical problems no matter how cheap they are - replacement by a superior display technology is inevitable.

But again, you seem to be taking companies' optimistic future product projections as a promise...

This.

They're essentially at a prototype stage for large OLED's and have been for as long as I can remember. Seriously if you've been following this stuff closely for a decade or more you'd know all this and be appropriately cynical/jaded.

The real deal breaker for this tech is that regular old LCD's keep getting cheaper to make and OLED just never seems to live up to its promises. At the same time its going to require lots of advances in some fundamental materials sciences to pull off, which is expensive and time consuming. 5 years for a high end rich play boy toy is probably optimistic.

I'll leave out the rhetoric and just go straight to the facts:

Back in 2008, the Japanese government set up a joint project between 10 panel manufacturers (including Sony, Sharp, Toshiba, and others) to develop technologies and manufacturing techniques for large OLED displays - with the goal to be mass-producing 40 inch or larger displays by the late 2010s. Not imminently in the next few years, but a decade from when the committee was formed. That's the real Gantt chart these guys have going for large displays.

Again, I don't believe anything until I see it in production. Just like Duke Nukem Forever...

It'll be interesting to see if the Playstation Vita makes it into production on schedule (i.e. released in Asia this holiday season) with its 5" OLED display. That's a big step in the way of larger OLED displays.