cageymaru
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No worse than WoW Scroll of Resurrection.
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Official [H] Star Wars:The Old Republic Thread
- Thread starter Savoy
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No worse than WoW Scroll of Resurrection.
Ruoh
Supreme [H]ardness
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True, but you can't really say that SWTOR has been around long.
That was pre-damage control. I don't even think the game needs to worry about damage control, it still has millions of players playing. All they have to do is maintain their PVP routine and they will maintain millions of players.
Everytime there is a group of players who quit, they will do something like the Scroll (I just got one, and I'm taking it!) and it prevents them from going into full panic mode too soon.
People may make fun of it, but it works wonders.
cageymaru
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Oh I wasn't making fun of Blizzard. I used to play it some years ago. I was just saying that the week of free playtime in SWTOR was comparable to WoW's Scroll of Resurrection. Both are incentives to play the respective game; not reasons to think the games have failed. It's a marketing ploy.
I rerolled onto a populated server this weekend. The last patch made it much easier to do so although I'm going to miss my 30 legacy level from the last server. In the starting area on my new server there are more people than my entire fleet during prime time on my old server.
What Bioware did completely backwards was put too low a limit on the amount of people allowed on a server before opening a new one. They completely missed the target. Thus it makes sense to consolidate all the extra servers they launched with that never got past "standard" populations as they have become "light" populated servers now.
I know what the problem is. When you consolidate servers via a merger, the doomsday voices come out and say the game is failing! Some customers who are having fun read that and run away from the game regardless of the level of fun they are experiencing. So Bioware is afraid of that scenario happening and rightfully so.
What they need to do is institute free transfers with a recommended server destination list. Increase the population potential for the larger servers and recommend the 2nd highest population servers until they are full. Dummies that want to stick around on the ghost towns can do so to their own detriment.
Well that's my opinion. Wonder how it will play out in the end.
I rerolled onto a populated server this weekend. The last patch made it much easier to do so although I'm going to miss my 30 legacy level from the last server. In the starting area on my new server there are more people than my entire fleet during prime time on my old server.
What Bioware did completely backwards was put too low a limit on the amount of people allowed on a server before opening a new one. They completely missed the target. Thus it makes sense to consolidate all the extra servers they launched with that never got past "standard" populations as they have become "light" populated servers now.
I know what the problem is. When you consolidate servers via a merger, the doomsday voices come out and say the game is failing! Some customers who are having fun read that and run away from the game regardless of the level of fun they are experiencing. So Bioware is afraid of that scenario happening and rightfully so.
What they need to do is institute free transfers with a recommended server destination list. Increase the population potential for the larger servers and recommend the 2nd highest population servers until they are full. Dummies that want to stick around on the ghost towns can do so to their own detriment.
Well that's my opinion. Wonder how it will play out in the end.
GoldenTiger
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cageymaru, I have seen articles saying they're working on server transfers "asap", 
. Mine luckily has remained pretty populated (even though it is listed as "standard" most of the time) on the Republic side, and it's an Imperial-leaning server by far.
As far as # of server openings, they actually were no worse than other companies I'd say on opening too few or too many... they always end up overshooting it, and at the time it looks like it's the right target due to the incredible amounts of whining over queues (which would die down anyway) and the list of servers all showing "FULL".
. Mine luckily has remained pretty populated (even though it is listed as "standard" most of the time) on the Republic side, and it's an Imperial-leaning server by far. As far as # of server openings, they actually were no worse than other companies I'd say on opening too few or too many... they always end up overshooting it, and at the time it looks like it's the right target due to the incredible amounts of whining over queues (which would die down anyway) and the list of servers all showing "FULL".
It isn't the scroll of resurrection. People always come back to WoW. The problem is you never stay for more than a month. WoW does need an overhaul, but TOR brings nothing new to the table.
People always come back to WoW because they have a lot invested in it. Not because of gameplay itself. Graphics-wise and raid-encounter wise, SWTOR is a much better game. I had more fun and it was more challenging doing Denova on normal than any of WoW's heroics. I also had a lot more fun leveling on SWTOR. Just like huttball and the other warzones, as played out as they are, are still much better than wow's "let's just rush past the opponent to kill npcs/get the flag" battlegrounds.
The reason I (and I would be most other people) end up back on WoW more frequently than SWTOR is because of time invested. Some of my friends in WoW have had the same character for over 6 years.
Which is why I don't think there will ever be a MMO as successful as WoW. It came along at a time when MMOs were becoming more possible (cable internet around the world, etc), other MMOs were dying, and consoles were in between gens. Now people just stick with it because of time invested. MMOs are a niche market, and the conditions that made WoW such a hit will not come around any time soon. And it is the popularity that wow had way back then that keeps it going. Between their fresh 50 on SWTOR and their 85 on WoW, with hundreds of achievements, server "fame," etc. people just go to the latter, even if the gameplay aspects that are most important (graphics and game challenge) are better in SWTor.
The reason I (and I would be most other people) end up back on WoW more frequently than SWTOR is because of time invested. Some of my friends in WoW have had the same character for over 6 years.
Which is why I don't think there will ever be a MMO as successful as WoW. It came along at a time when MMOs were becoming more possible (cable internet around the world, etc), other MMOs were dying, and consoles were in between gens. Now people just stick with it because of time invested. MMOs are a niche market, and the conditions that made WoW such a hit will not come around any time soon. And it is the popularity that wow had way back then that keeps it going. Between their fresh 50 on SWTOR and their 85 on WoW, with hundreds of achievements, server "fame," etc. people just go to the latter, even if the gameplay aspects that are most important (graphics and game challenge) are better in SWTor.
While a valid point I don't entirely believe that to be the case. With all the gear out there and the alts people have built up through the years on WoW sure they have quite a bit invested, but anyone who cares about time invested isn't going to attempt to play another MMO because they realize the time sink.
The people who picked up and are playing TOR are people who really care less about WoW. The issue is TOR isn't as fun.
Sure you say you had "the most fun ever", but what did you say 4 years ago? Because I am pretty sure I said that a lot while playing WoW and TOR.
I truly honestly think that the things that keep people playing WoW does better.
WoW has arenas, better gear system. More PVP, better PVP and this isn't subjective. TOR doesn't have anything like AV.
More raids? Are they better than WoW? Maybe, maybe not. I haven't done them all, but WoW has more variety.
I think it actually is more related to the "first love" syndrome. Many people got into WoW first, and it became their first passion for MMO's, whether they will actually admit it or not. So when something new comes along, its always compared to that first love, and usually falls short. If content was the deciding factor, EQ2 would have blown WoW out of the water, but it didn't. I hear people say things like, its just a watered down version of WoW in space with a star wars theme, and then others say it should be more like WoW, because it doesn't have this or that. Essentially its just a comparison to that first love IMO.
People saying no other MMO will be as successful as WoW are crazy Of course there will be, someday.
Imagine once there is full virtual reality, with a closet sized room, that has the game spread out on all four walls and ceiling, with life like graphics, and true A.I. in all the NPC characters. Something like that may be 15- 20yrs away still, but it will be HUGE, and could have 100 million subscribers easily. So of course there will be a future MMO way more successful than WoW, but I will admit it is a decade or more away from release.
Of course there will be, someday.Imagine once there is full virtual reality, with a closet sized room, that has the game spread out on all four walls and ceiling, with life like graphics, and true A.I. in all the NPC characters. Something like that may be 15- 20yrs away still, but it will be HUGE, and could have 100 million subscribers easily. So of course there will be a future MMO way more successful than WoW, but I will admit it is a decade or more away from release.
I'll readily admit that because WoW was my first MMO, I have some very fond memories of it that no MMO will be able to match/surpass until something truly revolutionary comes along... think Holo-Deck most likely. However, those fond memories of a different game aren't to blame for why TOR fails.
I agree with you and what I have been saying.
You can paint the picture a bunch of ways, but at the end of the day TOR is not a game that can compete with the 2011 WoW. I can list 5 examples just off the top of my head
1. WoW has better customization
2. Grouping is shitloads better
3. Stories aren't replacing the grind (does nothing revolutionary)
4. WoW has better PVP/better and more content
5. WoW runs better across a number of different casual low end machines
WoW was my first MMO aswell. I miss that feeling of "WOAW" when running into darnassus for the first time and after that someone who knew I was new, escorting me to Ironforge. I miss those times.
Totally agree, I would be happy with ToR if it was a clone of WoW, just with 2011 graphics, and WoW set in the Star Wars universe. I like the total free open world of WoW with as little load screens as possible, you can go from zone to zone on one continent with zero load screens. You can quest together with friends from other races and get rewards together.
ToR is just missing something, I can't quite put my finger on, but fun gameplay it is not. And true open world MMO that you can quest together with friends of other races and classes you can't as easier too.
WoW was my first MMO aswell. I miss that feeling of "WOAW" when running into darnassus for the first time and after that someone who knew I was new, escorting me to Ironforge. I miss those times.
Fuck lets talk about the pre wow head. I remember spending 72 hours with a group of friends. One would look maybe at shitty notes online while everyone else would just sit there waiting for him to be like "it says it is just south of the tree near the cave"
"ok where the fuck is the tree" "FOUND IT"
Phew we are done with that quest
72 hours later - lvl 12
I agree with most of what you are saying but I have to say that huttball has been one of my favorite pvp games in the past several years. Even as broken as pvp is I enjoy playing that wz. When the teams are balanced and both know what they are doing, winning, even loosing is very satisfying. Too bad that is so rare.
And nobody, that i know of, has anything like AV, at least nothing like classic AV. AV before all the nerfs and redesigns where it took hours if not days to win was a blast.
AV was great back in the day when 2-3 BWL geared mages could hold up the entire opposing team at the leader for hours. Of course, I was the mage, so it was LOADS of fun being able to just destroy a team. There's so much cool in that BG that's just been taken away in the name of not having 10-12-20 hour turtlefests. Now it's all about the quick gear/honor instead of the epic battles.
Yeah, if you haven't done them you can't really speak to variety.
Because I have done both in the past month. There is no way that WoW has more variety at end game. Normal mode in wow is just aoe/tank and spank/mow things down, and things become slightly more complicated at heroic. SWTOR even in normal you can't just show up and collect loot.
And AV was great back in the day. Now it is just a rush where both sides completely ignore each other until someone back caps a tower and that side wins. Huttball, just to name one warzone, involves a lot more tactics and coordination than any wow bg. And arenas... let's just say I think that is the worst thing to show up in an MMO.
And yet at the end of the day I may play wow longer, simply for my history in my server.
What...you are joking about variety right? Sure I haven't played the end game in TOR, but honestly WoW is a bigger game with 30 levels of end game content.
I am not saying TOR won't get there, but right now to say that TOR has more content or variety than WoW?
I think the tactics are almost the same. With the smaller raid sizes etc and some of the end game raids you can't really show up in WoW raids and just get gear. Sure there are a lot of 5 man content to do and the progression for gear might be easier in WoW, but just to say that all WoW fights are tank and spank.That is wrong. WoW has a lot of positioning battles.
The issue with WoW is that most raids are like simon says, you stand in one spot, move etc and it is easy to win the fight. The problem also is that WoW raid guides etc are pretty much spread across 50 different sites so if you have an issue with any raid there is pretty much a 100 percent detailed guide out there telling you what to do.
Huttball may involve different tactics, but the BG is just not fun and I feel a lot of this is due to the combat and the fact that PvP gear progression isn't as good as WoW.
cageymaru
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Some of the SWTOR bosses have random mechanics that will just wipe the raid if luck isn't on your side.
I used to not think huttball was fun until I got into the 50 pvp bracket. Now I like it a lot because even if you are going up against a SUPER geared pre-made, you can still irk out a win by running the ball well and passing it around. We ran me as a Scoundrel healing, DPS Sage and Force sweep pbaoe Sentinel. Sent got the ball as I healed him and myself, ran up to the side and the sage would pull the sent up to him or we would toss the ball to him. Walk into the goal. Rinse repeat
I played WOW for about 5 years. I was the first Warlord Warlock on my server. I was a multi-time gladiator.
From a PVP perspective the most fun I ever had was in vanilla wow doing organised Arathi Basin and Warsong. Two teams of pro pvpers trying to cap points while holding others was spectacular. Warsong, defending the flag carrier and trying to cap with everyone on vent was almost as good. Back then, AV sucked.
Burning crusade was totally terrific for a hundred different reasons. The first season of Arenas was everything I ever hoped WOW PVP could be. Eye of the storm is an awful battleground, but other that that it's a great expansion. World PVP was common all around Shatrath which I loved. I lost years of my life to that addiction.
I skipped Wrath and went back for the fourth expansion but the PVP aspect is dead. One on one fights are over too quickly and the dearth of spells/abilities is staggering. They completely removed a warlocks ability to drain tank. Blizzard changed the warlock pvp dynamics so drastically that I couldn't adjust and I gave it up completely. I haven't tried Star Wars yet but the lack of quality PVP means that I likely never will.
That's probably for the best, since quitting WOW I've lost 20 pounds of fat, put on 15 pounds of muscle and I'm dating girls again.
Still... I do think about the Burning Crusade era A LOT and I quit two years ago!
From a PVP perspective the most fun I ever had was in vanilla wow doing organised Arathi Basin and Warsong. Two teams of pro pvpers trying to cap points while holding others was spectacular. Warsong, defending the flag carrier and trying to cap with everyone on vent was almost as good. Back then, AV sucked.
Burning crusade was totally terrific for a hundred different reasons. The first season of Arenas was everything I ever hoped WOW PVP could be. Eye of the storm is an awful battleground, but other that that it's a great expansion. World PVP was common all around Shatrath which I loved. I lost years of my life to that addiction.
I skipped Wrath and went back for the fourth expansion but the PVP aspect is dead. One on one fights are over too quickly and the dearth of spells/abilities is staggering. They completely removed a warlocks ability to drain tank. Blizzard changed the warlock pvp dynamics so drastically that I couldn't adjust and I gave it up completely. I haven't tried Star Wars yet but the lack of quality PVP means that I likely never will.
That's probably for the best, since quitting WOW I've lost 20 pounds of fat, put on 15 pounds of muscle and I'm dating girls again.
Still... I do think about the Burning Crusade era A LOT and I quit two years ago!
Wow may have more "skin" variety in end game. Different bosses, etc. But they are all, for the vast majority of cases, tank and spank until you get into some of the really heroic raids. In normal mode, all the different mechanics are made obsolete by the fact that people just so vastly outgear them. So sure, WoW has more raid bosses. But the vast majority of them are trivial, even in heroic. In 5 mans', then, there is no comparison (I think the only time I wiped on a HoT was when the healer was afk). So there is more variety only if you consider the total number of bosses. But in terms of mechanics, things are very different. In wow, long gone are the days on Naxx60 and onyxia.
As far as PvP gear progression, it is the same in both games due to resiliency/expertise. You have gear you dominate, you don't you get rolled. But swtor's warzones actually put players in conflict with each other, instead of the "avoid one another, kill npcs" that is the norm in some of wow's bgs.
Again, I am not saying swtor is even a better game. And as I said, I will probably play wow longer. But it is undeniable that in terms of raid mechanics and playing mechanics swtor is more complex and diverse (as a healer, then, there is no comparison. I'd much rather heal on my BH than on my shaman). But the fact is that wow has a built in advantage that everyone has a long history in the game. I don't mean in terms of gear, but of a history in one's server itself.
See heres the thing. I agree with you and before something thinks we are throwing a pissing match we both agree on the main point, but right now we are just arguing/discussing talking points.
However for some reason the combat just isn't as fun. I remember when I first played TOR and people were like "combat lag", then they fixed it, but even still everything just feels lifeless.
There really is no cut and dry cause and effect to using spells and while WoW is somewhat bloated you know the few spells to use while tanking etc. In TOR it just seems like a cluster fuck of pushing buttons, (unless you are healing). the combat just doesn't feel fun.
The combat is more complicated and it's fun if you know what you're doing. Playing SWTOR, especially on my Sentinel, reminds me more of playing Street Fighter or Tekken than an MMO. With some classes, it's as fast paced as you can manage, with others, it's a little more subdued (BH is pretty boring, but I'm only level 31).
cageymaru
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I'm enjoying my new Marauder I made on a heavy populated server. In pvp I just swing for the stars sometimes, but I've been catching on and honing my skill with it. I think it's more fun than my tank assassin in pvp.
But yea it does seem like I'm going to get carpal tunnel trying to play it. I haven't scratched the surface of my Marauder's potential.
But yea it does seem like I'm going to get carpal tunnel trying to play it. I haven't scratched the surface of my Marauder's potential.
Have fun playing Huttball against anyone worth their salt. I rerolled shadow shortly after not being able to do anything on my Marauder.
cageymaru
Fully [H]
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My buddy carries the flag in Huttball as a marauder. Just need a sorcerer to yank you to safety.
Brackle
Old Timer
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So my guild downed the first 2 bosses of EC (new ops). Gotta say, way harder now. Loving the difficulty.
Now if we can get serious raid members for our 8 man....for some reason Our Main officer found a woman who which gives him sex, and since he has never had sex before, has totally ignored swtor.
Yes im bitching, but I love the patch!
Now if we can get serious raid members for our 8 man....for some reason Our Main officer found a woman who which gives him sex, and since he has never had sex before, has totally ignored swtor.
Yes im bitching, but I love the patch!
Analyst suggests The Old Republic is already losing subscribers...
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/...ld-republic-is-already-losing-subscribers.ars
"These figures have shown a roughly 10 percent decline over the last two months. That doesn't necessarily mean the game has lost 10 percent of its subscribers in that time, of course, but it isn't really a sign of strong player growth, either."
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/...ld-republic-is-already-losing-subscribers.ars
"These figures have shown a roughly 10 percent decline over the last two months. That doesn't necessarily mean the game has lost 10 percent of its subscribers in that time, of course, but it isn't really a sign of strong player growth, either."
Biggrich76
Limp Gawd
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Arenas, PvP, and raids are not the things that keep most people playing WoW. People spend far more time crafting, cooking, fishing, collecting pets, mounts, titles, etc. The best thing about WoW is that there is tons of shit to do when you're not raiding, leveling or PvPing.
SWTOR simply doesn't have the "time-wasters" that WoW has, and that's what most people keep coming back for. They have been adding stuff regularly, but they made leveling so fast that there's nothing to fill the gap. They made the game too easy for the hardcore crowd and didn't give the casual crowd enough mindless stuff to do.
I'm somewhere in the middle. I like raiding and PvP but I'm not "hardcore" (probably because I'm older and have less time to play), so it's nice to have a variety of things to do. However, if I played 10+ hours a day I could see myself getting very bored.
mrgstiffler
[H]F Junkie
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Haven't played in a few months and logged in to check out the update. Very surprised to find a queue!
I think this puts what I trying to say more succinctly than I did. I think that in terms of leveling and end game mechanics swtor is ahead of wow. And I say this as someone who fully admits that he will probably play wow longer. And the reason is a lot of what you said. Swtor misses some of these time sinks you can do on short notice while shooting the breeze with friends. But the "core" of the game in swtor is more interesting, at least to me. Which makes the game definitely worth the money to at least clean things through once.
FadedSpark
Supreme [H]ardness
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Like what? There aren't any wipe-the-raid mechanics that require luck. There are a lot of wipe-the-raid mechanics entirely based off of skill, especially in the new Op an FP, and unless you've run them you can't really speak to how easy they are to learn.
Me and a buddy have been teaching a group as we go and have spent about 6 hours perfecting and attempting a few different strategies on the newest operation in preps for the hard mode runs of it. Not once did we at random wipe, We could call it every single time, moments before it happened. Miss an interrupt in the wrong spot? Wipe. Miss a critical debuff? Wipe. And there are usually two strats on the bosses. We attempt both and look for the better strat.
Toth and Zorn requires swapping. What most groups do (Fail. ) is tanks swap sides and pull their boss back so DPS doesn't have to move... Well that's just dumb. We can 3s swap both bosses and not lose a moment of dps (Helps always having a sentinel running with you.
)Stormcaller and firebrand strats all say incinerate armor requires and IMMEDIATE tank swap... This is false. It requires healers who actively watch the game and don't click a raid frame just to send off heals. They watch the debuffs and look and KNOW when they need to put extra heals in.
The new content is tons of fun, especially with the world event in full swing. You're missing out if you're judging it and not playing it. And you've still got a bit of game time left to try it, even if you unsubbed.
Yeah I can't tell you how many times I had to fight Soa in the Eternity Vault. What a pain in the ass.
Brackle
Old Timer
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LOL he was one of the easiest bosses if you ask me, It was just the BUGS that makes that fight suck ass
Have you tried out EC? Man that is 1 fun raid. Hell one of the bosses in the new Ops has a fight mechanic like Mine sweeper.
My only complaint is we only got 4 bosses......but I got a feeling they will unlock more here in a patch.
cageymaru
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Yes this is the boss i was talking about. SOA always bugged out in new inventive ways that would wipe the raid.
@0omega I rerolled onto another server so I have to level and gear back up again before I can see the new raid content. I miss my 30 legacy levels though. I'm trying out dps for the first time as a Sentinel / Marauder. Kinda fun, but I can't seem to live long enough in pvp to kill anyone. Everyone I know stopped healing cold turkey and those that rerolled all went dps.
Game is still fun, but I miss my old toons.
Colonel Sanders
Supreme [H]ardness
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LOL, I've noticed a lot of people write out Soa as if it was an acronym (SOA). It's literally Soa.
cageymaru
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I called it many other things when I was raiding as the main tank and he tossed me out of the instance many times. Or better when the floor would disappear randomly and we'd lose all the healers and I'd lightning spam heal myself for a long time as the raid slowly wiped.
But he was easy enough that we pugged 5 random people for our 8 man and beat him one time. Our pug Juggernaught dps was so badly geared that I sent companions on a mission and got some relics that I gave to him. Then I switched toons and made him medipacs and stims so we could get past the part where you have to fight a guy solo without outside help. We wiped for 2 hours there because of him.
Heck I healed that entire instance on my Mercenary who was wearing level 44 blue mods in his orange social gear set. I hit 50; mentioned that I hit 50 on my healer alt in guild chat, and was healing the raid 5 minutes later. The second healer was wearing the same gear as he had hit 50 an hour before me.
Can't wait until I get high enough level to raid again!