Nvidia Purposely Reducing Hash Rate for RTX 3060 GPUs, Creates Cryptocurrency Mining Processors (CMP)

GoodBoy

[H]ard|Gawd
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Do you think that NV is just now selling directly to miners? This has been going on literally for years.
Oh no. Yeah that's been going on for awhile and I am sure will continue to.

I don't really have a problem with it, and even if I did, there wouldn't be a damn thing I could do about it.

I think people are trying to blame nVidia for the shortage of cards, when the reality is that the supply issues have a multitude of factors. Only 2 companies (how many fabs?) making chips on these advanced node processes. One of the required materials is in very short supply and has to be ordered 7 months ahead of time.. Global pandemic. Demand higher than it has ever been. 2 console launches competing for chips. Automotive industry crying about not ordering enough chips. Cell phones with a 2 year lifespan. Taiwan now dealing with covid outbreaks, and no one wants to give them any vaccine for fear of pissing off China.

If there was adequate supply, would you give a fuck that nVidia sells chips for mining purposes?
 

elvn

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I'm mad that both nvidia and the retailers did not work out better systems to get cards into regular customer's hands and prevent or at least limit flipping/scalping on ebay, amazon, etc. I think evga had a customer loyalty stock pipeline (if you registered your previous gpu) which I applaud but it's hardly standard. You can have user licenses for apps (even with dongle "keys") and operating systems tied to a specific computer and a verified user, why not gpus? They could probably also detect how many gaming gpus are being used in the same system and disable anything over a certain # if they really wanted to keep gaming gpus out of mining operations.

I'm sure there are workarounds/hacks but there might be some ways to make it harder to scalp with a nvidia+vendor purchase history reviewed loyalty "chicken on every table" kind of thing.. I don't care if someone is mining in their downtime on a gaming gpu they bought, but botting every single gpu and scalping it on ebay to huge racks of gpus in mining operations is quite different.
 
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cybereality

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There are obvious things they can do with current technology: CAPTCHAs, ID verification, 1 unit limit per account, etc. It's not hard, and in fact most of these systems already exist and could be easily added.

I mean, you have to friggin login with an account and CAPTCHA to use Geforce Experience on your own computer, but Nvidia can't do the same to buy a GPU? It's bogus. They don't care.
 

LukeTbk

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Taiwan now dealing with covid outbreaks, and no one wants to give them any vaccine for fear of pissing off China.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/taiwan/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Taiwan#February_2

Are those numbers wrong (or have no test in Taiwan), because less than 30 known case discovered in the whole month of february for a country of 24 millions and 9 death since the beginning, their latest 7 days average of new case if of 0 according to the worldmeter

Has for the vaccin I imagine it is normal for no one to give them any, but people (a german resellers) sold 20 millions of doses (mix of moderna, astra and covax) to them 2 days ago:
https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4131015
 

DukenukemX

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So yeah, if it takes hackers 6 or 12 months to hack, that would be a success because it would stop the miners from using it for the lifetime of the launch (in a year, new cards will be out and we can start all over again).
You say that but look at how Nvidia is still selling RTX 2060's two years later, and GTX 1050 Ti's five years later. Products don't last 6-12 months anymore.
 

Balkroth

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While it's frustrating, and I can't get a card, I have absolutely zero problem with AMD or Nvidia selling to whoever wants to buy them. I at least from a datacenter side, that those cards are still, kind of flowing well.
 

DPI

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There are obvious things they can do with current technology: CAPTCHAs, ID verification, 1 unit limit per account, etc. It's not hard, and in fact most of these systems already exist and could be easily added.

I mean, you have to friggin login with an account and CAPTCHA to use Geforce Experience on your own computer, but Nvidia can't do the same to buy a GPU? It's bogus. They don't care.
That's right. Select all images with crosswalks and the GPU shortage will be solved! :D


1613817226328.png
 
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elvn

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There are things they (nvidia and vendors) could do during a drought like from the top of an inventory - 1 sale per long time verified account per month or per quarter, prioritizing long account sales histories, verified previous gpu purchase, and a similar pre-order sign-up for long time registered customers like evga did. Maybe additionally multi point verification of other accounts (apple, samsing, Facebook, verified paypal) and with so few gpus they could even do voice or voice app ordering with actual agents in parallel with online ordering to combat botting. Also one or two per rig detected in firmware (at least without hacks/custom firmware, disabling old firmwares on new chips) keyed to the unit hardware ID. There could also potentially be legal user agreements/contracts drummed up to not resell for 6months to 1 yr so major outlets like eBay and Amazon could perhaps be legally liable for listing any of a given generation so be forced to pull those listing and disable posting them normally.
 
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ChadD

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There are things they (nvidia and vendors) could do during a drought like from the top of an inventory - 1 sale per long time verified account per month or per quarter, prioritizing long account sales histories, verified previous gpu purchase, and a similar pre-order sign-up for long time registered customers like evga did. Maybe additionally multi mult point verification of other accounts (apple, Facebook, verified paypal) and with so few gpus they could even do voice or voice app ordering with actual agents in parallel with online ordering to combat botting. Also one or two per rig detected in firmware (at least without hacks/custom firmware, disabling old firmwares on new chips) keyed to the unit hardware ID. There could also potentially be legal user agreements/contracts drummed up to not resell for 6months to 1 yr so major outlets like eBay and Amazon could perhaps be legally liable for listing any of a given generation so be forced to pull those listing and disable posting them normally.

Wait what you want companies to be able to tell you what you can do with something you BOUGHT from them. You want them to be able to limit your ability to resell something you bought and own ? Sounds like a great idea. I'm sure giving companies the tools to destroy resell markets is something they would really hate... emm hmm. Do we really want companies tell you you can't resell things. Hell that is something we have been FIGHTING for as consumers for years. Legally consumers have had to fight insane things like warenty only applying to the first purchaser ect. Now you guys want to walk all that crap back because there is a GPU shortage...and someone else got one and you didn't ?

Ya no screw all that. Companies can sell as many of a product as they like to whoever they like... and consumers can sell a product they bought today tomorrow or next week or in five years. ITS There's their contract with the company they bought it for is complete when they take your money.

As for limits of 1 per customer ect. Ya that's all good... and I can see that controls there can for sure deal with the scalping issues. Although I personally consider the issue to be overblown... yes it happens, yes it happens more then it used to but anecdotal evidence doesn't make for a wide spread plague either. Most people that just get their GPUs put them in their machines and you never hear from them. Many times more regular people have GPUs then scalpers. Yes the supply still sucks but if I get one and put it in my machine that don't help you trying to get one either, and you don't know if 20 normies got cards for every 1 scalper of if its 100 to 1. The big miners that gets every ones ears warm posting their pictures of farms of 3080s ect.... I doubt highly they bought those with bots. They bought those direct.

Anyway all these round about BS silliness arguments all comes down to the only real real issue here. And the only one anyone really wants solved in the end. Supply. If the supply of new cards was good.... scalping wouldn't be an issue, mining wouldn't be an issue. We can blame Nvidia for dragging heals and ending up with Samsung... but to be frank TMSC isn't exactly turning chips out either AMD is also suffering stock issues. We can blame individual retailers.... but vast amounts of supply are going out further up the channel. There are direct sales, there are direct assembler sales, there are middle man wholesale suppliers selling, and there are retail sales happening as well. The pressure on every point of the distro channel is immense. And the chip world has gotten themselves into a situation where its impossible to short order anything... TMSC needs contracts in hand damn near close to a year in advance. The general demand for high end silicon in the world is crazier then its ever been there is a cutting edge chip in damn near everything these days... and there not going to shut down one industry so they can rush a second run of GPUs out the fab. Then we got pandemic shipping issues... we got pandemic manufacturing issues... pandemic demand issues.

Point being its super easy to point a finger and a single boggy man... its the evil scaler or its the evil miners errrr. Ok no one likes scalpers but they don't exist if stock is solved. Miners.... well what are you going to do there as legit a user as you are. Sorry its true. What someone does with a GPU is none of your freaking business frankly. What's next.... don't sell GPUs to that guy he's just powering blender, that didn't pay for all this GPU research research. Or hey hey now don't send supply to those AI research guys... I mean sure there responsible for the majority of Nvidias stock price, but they didn't pay for 30 years of GPU research. :) Sadly this generation of cards is basically never going to meet demand. The fabs contracts for more GPUs are just too far behind... the demand in general for GPUs isn't going down. Mining AI gaming Consoles none of that demand is going to drop this generation. When the next gen hits lets all just hope Nvidia and AMD order enough silicon... and hopefully the countries responsible for assembly and supply sort out all the virus crap. For this generation its fucked its not getting unfucked and Nvidia trying to ensure gamers can buy the scrape pile 3060s at least... is nice but also insulting. lol
 

elvn

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You could market gamer cards and take steps to get them into gamers hands rather than miners yes I think you could and I think you should. Same with consoles and even phones if they were being used similarly with targeted use customers being left out.

You can make timed exclusivity deals and contracts with media and a person/personality's appearances and platforms, and things like NDAs in time periods so I don't see why you couldn't with hardware in the face of scalping for a period under contract. Like an early/priority buyers club contract.
 

ChadD

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You could market gamer cards and take steps to get them into gamers hands rather than miners yes I think you could and I think you should. Same with consoles and even phones if they were being used similarly with targeted use customers being left out.

You can make timed exclusivity deals and contracts with media and a person/personality's appearances and platforms, and things like NDAs in time periods so I don't see why you couldn't with hardware in the face of scalping for a period under contract. Like an early/priority buyers club contract.

Sure I mean why not other physical things. I mean why should anyone get a deal on a 2 month old demo car... or a car someone was forced to sell a few weeks after buying it for whatever reason. I mean its best for car companies that people not resell their cars for 2 years. They should really just all get together and write contracts for people buying new cars. Thou shall not resell for ohhh I don't know 2 years sounds good. Ahhh the furniture industry HATES all the resell it really cuts into sales... perhaps they should prepare contracts for all new loveseats sold... no reselling for 5 years.

Its a ridiculous stupid... and frankly not legal idea that you can contract people to not resell physical product. Even non physical product has legal issues with such contracts. Its perfectly legal to resell digital software in many jurisdictions now.

What you are proposing has been shot down in court multiple times... and when companies have tried to do such things its consumer groups that have taken them to court. NO its not in our interest for companies to try and demand who we can sell things we own to or when.

If they where allowed to do what you want... they would NEVER fix supply issues for real. I mean why... they can pretend their in tight supply forever and keep costs up nice and high, and sell nothing but new cards cause the second hand market wouldn't even be an option. Its like the console companies hating the idea of game selling at places like gamestop... of course they want EVERYONE to have to buy new, how does that even fix supply issues. Right now many people are fine with buying last years high end cards used for at least a little bit of a discount.... with what your suggesting I guess those people are now competing with you for stock as well. (also lets all be honest.... the big miners that dump their cards into the second hand market... are not going to stop mining cause they can't resell. I'm sure its still profitable if they just bin all the cards after... so what does that solve really ?)
 

elvn

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You wouldn't have to sign up for the early buyers club and could wait on better supplied stock for an unfettered purchase. It would be more like a customer appreciation program with an NDA type selling thing attached in return for "early"/timely access.

It wouldn't stop mining but it could perhaps make an impact on scalping and getting cards to the targeted users in the case of products promoted as gaming cards (or gaming consoles, phones, etc.'s targeted usage/users)
 
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ChadD

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You wouldn't have to sign up for the early buyers club and could wait on better supplied stock for an unfettered purchase. It would be more like a customer appreciation program with an NDA type selling thing attached in return for "early"/timely access.

It wouldn't stop mining but it could perhaps make an impact on scalping and getting cards to the targeted users in the case of products promoted as gaming cards (or gaming consoles, phones, etc.'s targeted usage/users)
Well its irrelevant cause its illegal anyway.

https://smallbiztrends.com/2013/03/resale-rights-you-bought-own.html
 

GoodBoy

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Interesting question. I guess not for the reply. The fact however is that gamers paid for all that R&D and are now being forsaken.
I am as frustrated as anyone else.. still trying for a 3090FE. I'm just not sure nVidia can do anything about it.
There are things they (nvidia and vendors) could do during a drought like from the top of an inventory - 1 sale per long time verified account per month or per quarter, prioritizing long account sales histories, verified previous gpu purchase, and a similar pre-order sign-up for long time registered customers like evga did. Maybe additionally multi point verification of other accounts (apple, samsing, Facebook, verified paypal) and with so few gpus they could even do voice or voice app ordering with actual agents in parallel with online ordering to combat botting.
Newegg does near daily product shuffles, randomizes who gets what, no fighting against a bot that can react in a millisecond. More vendors trying something like this would be worth a shot.

Also one or two per rig detected in firmware (at least without hacks/custom firmware, disabling old firmwares on new chips) keyed to the unit hardware ID. There could also potentially be legal user agreements/contracts drummed up to not resell for 6months to 1 yr so major outlets like eBay and Amazon could perhaps be legally liable for listing any of a given generation so be forced to pull those listing and disable posting them normally.
Not sure this is the way to go. The company shouldn't control what you do with the hardware once you own it. Even including reselling. There are gamers who also mine on their cards to help pay for pc upgrades. I'm not going to tell them they cannot do this.

If nVidia can use chips meant for the junk pile to satiate at least a portion of the miner market, they should as it will help us.

Think about it. Rough guesstimate, they have made 1 million 3000 series graphics cards by this point. Mining demand is insane right now, so a good portion of those are mining. The fab is getting great yields of 80%. That means 250,000 chips have been manufactured that couldn't be used in a graphics card. What if out of those, 100,000 are still perfectly capable of mining? Fuck yes they should make those into mining only cards. That means 100,000 gaming cards that miners will not be fighting over, and can be sold to gamers.
 

ChadD

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I dont know if that would be true if you bought it under contract like with NDA ~ developer equipment.
You can't contract illegal things. Its why slavery is also not legal no matter what you sign. NDAs tend to pertain to information given... not sold, nor physical. I can NDA you to not talk about a test product I GIVE you... I can not NDA you to not talk about something you BOUGHT.

Also once you buy it its not developer equipment anymore... its yours. That is the way money transactions work. :)
 

elvn

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I don't think you can resell developer hardware either.
You can't contract illegal things. Its why slavery is also not legal no matter what you sign. NDAs tend to pertain to information given... not sold, nor physical. I can NDA you to not talk about a test product I GIVE you... I can not NDA you to not talk about something you BOUGHT.

Also once you buy it its not developer equipment anymore... its yours. That is the way money transactions work. :)


By virtue of being a PlayStation partner, developers have access to customized development hardware for their titles. This requires developers to follow the steps included in the SDK tutorials above. Creators must submit appropriate forms and sign an NDA through the PlayStation Partners Program portal to secure these dev kits. University partners may also secure hardware through the same channel.

  • You must be an authorized developer – with official testing hardware – to test games on the PlayStation platform. PlayStation owners with retail consoles cannot test games, unlike with Xbox.


Development kits aren’t approved for resale, leaving eBay and other pre-owned sales platforms out of the equation. These consoles are covered by NDA and are IP-locked. This means developers must access hardware through official channels. PlayStation kits also expire at a predetermined date, after which they must be renewed or decommissioned.

Various online sources suggest each PlayStation 4 dev kit costs around $2,500, this price increasing with add-ons and different configuration options. Sony has also started releasing PS5 dev kits ahead of its Winter 2020 release. Pricing for that remains unclear.
 

ChadD

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I don't think you can resell developer hardware either.
ummm yes you can. Developers don't tend to do this... cause they have a relationship with the companys dev kit they are using. The people making dev kits don't sell them to anyone. Buy ya if you see one for sale there is nothing illegal about it. If a game company closes down the dev kits don't get sent back or thrown in the bin either. They get auctioned with all the other assets that company owned.

Now if your thinking about development software that is a completely different thing... and the companies don't SELL development software. They give access to legit developers. The hardware has no legal issues with resell.
 

Axman

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Not all are. I’ll happily buy a mining gimped 3080 given the opportunity.
Do you see that this is the same thing as saying “I’ll happily buy an Epic gimped card because I only play Steam games?”

Also lol at 3080. Nvidia’s not that stupid.
 

Endgame

Gawd
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Do you see that this is the same thing as saying “I’ll happily buy an Epic gimped card because I only play Steam games?”

Also lol at 3080. Nvidia’s not that stupid.
Nope, not the same thing at all. I would purchase hardware intentionally crippled for mining as it is not a use I’m interested in. I am interested in gaming, so would not purchase hardware that was intentionally crippled for games. Easy and obvious answer.
 

ChadD

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Nope, not the same thing at all. I would purchase hardware intentionally crippled for mining as it is not a use I’m interested in. I am interested in gaming, so would not purchase hardware that was intentionally crippled for games. Easy and obvious answer.

So when they gimp them to suck at photoshop.... or gimp them for use in Blender... to sell more expensive quadros or some new creator card. Your going to defend them right ? How about game streaming ? not a major feature for 99% of users... but so many crappy twich users with 3 followers eating stock... perhaps they should gimp that and sell a streaming extreme version, help stock and solve the flood of fat dudes twitching right ?

How does that famous Niemöller poem go again ? lol
 

elvn

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ummm yes you can. Developers don't tend to do this... cause they have a relationship with the companys dev kit they are using. The people making dev kits don't sell them to anyone. Buy ya if you see one for sale there is nothing illegal about it. If a game company closes down the dev kits don't get sent back or thrown in the bin either. They get auctioned with all the other assets that company owned.

Now if your thinking about development software that is a completely different thing... and the companies don't SELL development software. They give access to legit developers. The hardware has no legal issues with resell.


I'm no legal expert, just going on what I've read there seems to be ways to apply restrictions including the hardware.

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/946581/000162828017005833/ex10-48.htm



SCHEDULE 1
DEFINITIONS
“Additional Terms” has the meaning set forth in Section 10.1.
“Advertising Materials” means any advertising, marketing, merchandising, promotional, contest or competition-related, press release, display, point of sale or website materials regarding or relating to PlayStation Compatible Products or depicting Licensed Trademarks. Advertising Materials include any advertisements or promotions in which any System is displayed, referred to, or used, including giving away any System as a prize in contests or sweepstakes and the public display of any System in product placement opportunities.
“Affiliate” means Sony Computer Entertainment Korea Inc., Sony Computer Entertainment Hong Kong Limited, Sony Network Entertainment International, LLC, Sony Network Entertainment Europe Ltd., Gaikai, Inc., Sony Digital Audio Disc Corporation, Sony DADC Austria AG, any Designated Manufacturing Facility, any direct or indirect subsidiary or parent of any of the foregoing, and any other entity created that becomes a direct or indirect subsidiary or parent of, or shares a common direct or indirect parent with, an SIE Company.
“Designated Manufacturing Facility” means a manufacturing facility that is designated by the SIE Company, in its sole discretion, to manufacture and assemble Physical Media Products or any of their component parts in that SIE Company’s Territory.
“Development Site” means the location(s) where Development Tools are used to develop PlayStation Compatible Products.
“Development Tools” means the Hardware Tools and Software Tools.


7.Development Tools
7.1Acquisition of Development Tools. For the purposes of this Section 7, “the applicable SIE Company” shall mean the SIE Company in the Territory in which the Development Tools are to be used or, at that SIE Company’s direction, another SIE Company. The applicable SIE Company may sell or loan Development Tools to Publisher in its sole discretion, in accordance with this Section 7. For the avoidance of doubt, any Software Tools included with or provided in relation to Hardware Tools are licensed, not sold or loaned, to Publisher pursuant to the terms set forth in Sections 3, 5 and 6. Title to Software Tools does not pass to Publisher upon purchase or loan of the Hardware Tools. The nontransferable license of the Software Tools within the Hardware Tools may act as a restriction or prohibition against the resale of the Hardware Tools. The purchase price or loan fee for Development Tools shall be based on SIE’s standard calculation generally applicable to all Licensed Publishers,



7.8Care and Maintenance of Development Tools. Publisher shall be solely responsible for the installation and administration of Hardware Tools. Publisher shall: (i) keep and use the Development Tools securely and only at the Development Site(s) notified to the applicable SIE Company or specified on the Developer Website, or other location approved in advance in writing by the applicable SIE Company; (ii) allow access to and use of the Development Tools only to persons whose duties justify the need for access and use in the exercise of the license granted under this GDPA, and who are authorized under Section 20.2.2 to have access to the SIE Materials; (iii) designate and authorize an individual to act as the applicable SIE Company’s contact with respect to Development Tools and, if Publisher wishes to designate a new designee, provide the applicable SIE Company with written notice according to the procedures set forth on the Developer Website or designated by the applicable SIE Company; (iv) preserve any proprietary rights or other notices placed on the Development Tools by SIE or its Affiliates and place all such notices on any copies made as permitted by this GDPA; (v) keep Development Tools in good and serviceable condition; (vi) ensure full compliance with all instructions relating to the maintenance, security or operation of Development Tools; (vii) maintain and service with all due care the Development Tools at Publisher’s expense according to SIE’s reasonable, written instructions; (viii) take all necessary further steps to ensure that Publisher does not render Development Tools unsafe or a risk to the health or safety of any person or property; (ix) inform the applicable SIE Company promptly upon becoming aware of any bugs, errors, failure or breakdown in Development Tools, however caused; (x) inform the applicable SIE Company promptly upon becoming aware of any unauthorized access to or use of the Developer Website and cooperate with that SIE Company to take all actions chosen by that SIE Company to address any unauthorized access or use, including taking any actions to prevent the recurrence of unauthorized use of or access to the Developer Website; and (xi) inform the applicable SIE Company promptly upon becoming aware of any suspected or actual loss, theft, breach of security or other similar exposure involving the Development Tools, report any suspected or actual loss or theft to the police and obtain a police incident number, use commercially reasonable efforts to recover such Development Tools and comply with any reasonable corrective action specified by the applicable SIE Company to recover the Development Tools and to prevent any re-occurrence of any loss, theft, breach of security or other similar exposure involving the Development Tools. A breach of Sections 7.8(i) or (ii) constitutes a material breach of this GDPA not capable of remedy.
 

T4rd

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Kudos to Linus for calling Nvidia out on this BS.


I don't see how Nvidia can claim that producing these CMP cards will not cut into the Geforce card production; there's no way they're standing up additional facilities or lines for these CMP cards. And I def agree that it's highly wasteful since these cards will be useless and worth nothing after the next crash. So they should def just focus on making as much Geforce cards as possible so that when the crash does happen, the cards are still useful and worth something to the gamers who want them.
 

elvn

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To be clear I'm mostly advocating for member benefits through nvidia + vendor methods to certified long time customers and verified persons/hardware to "put a chicken on every table" (one chicken) during supply droughts, and maybe using some licensing legalities to apply a NDA-like licensing structure (to early/valued customer club members who sign up) to limit or prevent insta-flip scalping during limited supply periods/early launch period... not permanently restricting personal sales of gpus. I'm advocating for getting gamer marketed card(1) to gamers, console gaming system marketed as such to console gamers, and smartphone marketed as such to smartphone users, etc.

For a strawman argument, lets say car tires were found very lucrative to be broken down for elements and people were cashing on them + scalping them to the point where hardly anyone could get replacement tires for their cars.. (or apply the same scenario to smartphones and cpus, etc.) I know a gaming gpu isn't a critical to life or infrastructure thing, 1st world problems and all of that... but what kind of system do we want to end up with?
 
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ChadD

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I'm no legal expert, just going on what I've read there seems to be ways to apply restrictions including the hardware.

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/946581/000162828017005833/ex10-48.htm



SCHEDULE 1
DEFINITIONS
“Additional Terms” has the meaning set forth in Section 10.1.
“Advertising Materials” means any advertising, marketing, merchandising, promotional, contest or competition-related, press release, display, point of sale or website materials regarding or relating to PlayStation Compatible Products or depicting Licensed Trademarks. Advertising Materials include any advertisements or promotions in which any System is displayed, referred to, or used, including giving away any System as a prize in contests or sweepstakes and the public display of any System in product placement opportunities.
“Affiliate” means Sony Computer Entertainment Korea Inc., Sony Computer Entertainment Hong Kong Limited, Sony Network Entertainment International, LLC, Sony Network Entertainment Europe Ltd., Gaikai, Inc., Sony Digital Audio Disc Corporation, Sony DADC Austria AG, any Designated Manufacturing Facility, any direct or indirect subsidiary or parent of any of the foregoing, and any other entity created that becomes a direct or indirect subsidiary or parent of, or shares a common direct or indirect parent with, an SIE Company.
“Designated Manufacturing Facility” means a manufacturing facility that is designated by the SIE Company, in its sole discretion, to manufacture and assemble Physical Media Products or any of their component parts in that SIE Company’s Territory.
“Development Site” means the location(s) where Development Tools are used to develop PlayStation Compatible Products.
“Development Tools” means the Hardware Tools and Software Tools.


7.Development Tools
7.1Acquisition of Development Tools. For the purposes of this Section 7, “the applicable SIE Company” shall mean the SIE Company in the Territory in which the Development Tools are to be used or, at that SIE Company’s direction, another SIE Company. The applicable SIE Company may sell or loan Development Tools to Publisher in its sole discretion, in accordance with this Section 7. For the avoidance of doubt, any Software Tools included with or provided in relation to Hardware Tools are licensed, not sold or loaned, to Publisher pursuant to the terms set forth in Sections 3, 5 and 6. Title to Software Tools does not pass to Publisher upon purchase or loan of the Hardware Tools. The nontransferable license of the Software Tools within the Hardware Tools may act as a restriction or prohibition against the resale of the Hardware Tools. The purchase price or loan fee for Development Tools shall be based on SIE’s standard calculation generally applicable to all Licensed Publishers,



7.8Care and Maintenance of Development Tools. Publisher shall be solely responsible for the installation and administration of Hardware Tools. Publisher shall: (i) keep and use the Development Tools securely and only at the Development Site(s) notified to the applicable SIE Company or specified on the Developer Website, or other location approved in advance in writing by the applicable SIE Company; (ii) allow access to and use of the Development Tools only to persons whose duties justify the need for access and use in the exercise of the license granted under this GDPA, and who are authorized under Section 20.2.2 to have access to the SIE Materials; (iii) designate and authorize an individual to act as the applicable SIE Company’s contact with respect to Development Tools and, if Publisher wishes to designate a new designee, provide the applicable SIE Company with written notice according to the procedures set forth on the Developer Website or designated by the applicable SIE Company; (iv) preserve any proprietary rights or other notices placed on the Development Tools by SIE or its Affiliates and place all such notices on any copies made as permitted by this GDPA; (v) keep Development Tools in good and serviceable condition; (vi) ensure full compliance with all instructions relating to the maintenance, security or operation of Development Tools; (vii) maintain and service with all due care the Development Tools at Publisher’s expense according to SIE’s reasonable, written instructions; (viii) take all necessary further steps to ensure that Publisher does not render Development Tools unsafe or a risk to the health or safety of any person or property; (ix) inform the applicable SIE Company promptly upon becoming aware of any bugs, errors, failure or breakdown in Development Tools, however caused; (x) inform the applicable SIE Company promptly upon becoming aware of any unauthorized access to or use of the Developer Website and cooperate with that SIE Company to take all actions chosen by that SIE Company to address any unauthorized access or use, including taking any actions to prevent the recurrence of unauthorized use of or access to the Developer Website; and (xi) inform the applicable SIE Company promptly upon becoming aware of any suspected or actual loss, theft, breach of security or other similar exposure involving the Development Tools, report any suspected or actual loss or theft to the police and obtain a police incident number, use commercially reasonable efforts to recover such Development Tools and comply with any reasonable corrective action specified by the applicable SIE Company to recover the Development Tools and to prevent any re-occurrence of any loss, theft, breach of security or other similar exposure involving the Development Tools. A breach of Sections 7.8(i) or (ii) constitutes a material breach of this GDPA not capable of remedy.

I won't say many companies haven't tried to stop dev kit sales... but any that have ended in court have FAILED. Because if I buy something from you I own it. This is also why you can resell a DVD you buy.... you own the DVD... but that doesn't entitle you to copy and sell the copies. You own what you paid for.

Also keep in mind developer kids are NOT intended for consumer sales. They don't go through the same process of getting approval for sale... by regulation bodies ect.

What we are talking about with GPUs is end user consumer hardware. There is no legal way to restrict its resale. There just isn't. Companies trying to stop the resale of digital products are failing in court and you think someone is going to squeeze by a legally binding contract to stop resale of purchased hardware ? Not a chance in hell its not legal. Companies can try to put whatever they want in a end user agreement that doesn't make it legal... and many end user agreements have been tossed by courts.
 

ChadD

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To be clear I'm mostly advocating for member benefits through nvidia + vendor methods to certified long time customers and verified persons/hardware to "put a chicken on every table" (one chicken) during supply droughts, and maybe using some licensing legalities to apply a NDA-like licensing structure (to early/valued customer club members who sign up) to limit or prevent insta-flip scalping during limited supply periods/early launch period... not permanently restricting personal sales of gpus. I'm advocating for getting gamer marketed card(1) to gamers, console gaming system marketed as such to console gamers, and smartphone marketed as such to smartphone users, etc.

For a strawman argument, lets say car tires were found very lucrative to be broken down for elements and people were cashing on them + scalping them to the point where hardly anyone could get replacement tires for their cars.. (or apply the same scenario to smartphones and cpus, etc.) I know a gaming gpu isn't a critical to life or infrastructure thing, 1st world problems and all of that... but what kind of system do we want to end up with?
Well your idea has some merit. Yes Nvidia could keep a fan club going if they want... and offer direct sales to members of their fan club. Nothing illegal about that... and you know what if they where able to verify someone didn't have 1000 accounts it makes sense. The only issue is trying to put a clause on there forbidding them from reselling (or giving away or donating) something they bought. They bought it... if they want to use it blow it up on youtube mine with it or sell it 2 weeks later at a markup. That is ALL completely legal and restricting it is not. I can't sell you anything and demand you keep it.
 

elvn

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It might work if they do an initial loan program then (for those wishing to sign up for such a club in order to get their gpu supplied sooner).. like rent to own. Then you don't own it until later in the supply chain but are legally entitled to it.
 

ChadD

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Kudos to Linus for calling Nvidia out on this BS.


I don't see how Nvidia can claim that producing these CMP cards will not cut into the Geforce card production; there's no way they're standing up additional facilities or lines for these CMP cards. And I def agree that it's highly wasteful since these cards will be useless and worth nothing after the next crash. So they should def just focus on making as much Geforce cards as possible so that when the crash does happen, the cards are still useful and worth something to the gamers who want them.
Well normally my opinions don't change much... and I mostly still say this is a PR move.

However someone did mention earlier that this COULD potentially be a good way for Nvidia to salvage a few more chips... if a GPUs compute bits are working but the controllers that connect to the output ports are where the defect lies. (in other words the chip works fine or 3/4 of the compute units do whatever.... but some other defect prevents it working stabilly as a output GPU) Perhaps those would make good mining only 3060 class hardware......

Still that scheme does nothing to address higher end units going to miners... nore does it imo address the real issue of miners getting to mine like crazy and eat their cake reselling them down the road. Mining only cards will have shit resell. However if these are really a good way to salvage chips AND they where priced accordingly I could see it helping a bit. The truth is we all know now Nvidia is going to sell these for the same price as the low end gaming cards.... and potentially a little slight bit cheaper but not enough to change the miners spreadsheeted calculus of card returns.
 

ChadD

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It might work if they do an initial loan program then (for those wishing to sign up for such a club in order to get their gpu supplied sooner).. like rent to own. Then you don't own it until later in the supply chain but are legally entitled to it.
Everyone buy on a layaway loaner program. :) lol

Well I'll give you points for thinking outside the box. Problem is there will always be people still just looking to buy. Especially seeing as Nvidia (like any company) doesn't do things for free.... I can't see many gamers lining up for rape high interest loans on their GPUs. Even if Nvidia themselves did such a program... all the third party companies won't be buying into that. We aren't dealing with one overlord seller here... Nvidia isn't apple. Most of the NV GPUs sold are not manufactured by or sold by Nvidia.... and those other manufacturers that buy NV GPUs... have distribution chains already. There are 100s of middle men companies all over the world moving cards to OEMS, retail chains, online stores, Acedmia direct sales companies, Gov suppliers ect ect ect. There not going to all of a sudden agree to stop doing what they do. (and for many of them that involves more then a few deals with miners big and small)
 

Axman

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just going on what I've read there
You'll notice that also says "confidential" on every page. How's that working out?
However someone did mention earlier that this COULD potentially be a good way for Nvidia to salvage a few more chips...
While I'm sure there's truth to the rumors that their yields aren't great, I'd be surprised if a large number of bad dies can be salvaged this way. I guarantee you no matter what they're diverting supply to mining companies, salvaged dies or otherwise, and this is their way of making it sound like they're putting the average joe first.

And damned if it isn't working.
 

ChadD

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Do nothing, "Nvidia doesn't care about gamers, a sale is a sale."
Do something, "Nvidia just wants to milk more sales by screwing over the used market."

No winning.
Its a fair assessment. But there is a way to win... produce enough stock. Which is really on them. I mean for my part I give them a pass completely... the last year has been freaking insane and no one could have foresaw the insane demand when they where designing the current generation of GPUs. We can complain about Samsung and how they didn't get in on TMSC space early enough ect ect... but to be fair to them. Samsung did produce a chip that works and is still a top performer... stock is not that terribly bad, cards exist and work. They just can't keep up with demand.

Nvidia hasn't done anything wrong. People would love to blame the miners or the scalers... but neither thing is why you don't have one if you want one. You don't have one if you want one cause demand is > then supply. The fact that a chunk of the demand wants to use it for something other then games is non of your fucking business as a consumer. What does it matter why its in demand. Some people want 3080s to play fucking fortnight... morons its overkill. Clearly they are not as worthy as me... so why is Nvidia not going out of their way to ensure I get one first. I mean they should have a questionare on their purchase site. "What games are you going to run on this thing" If they list fortnight or minecraft... that's it man restrict the sale. ;)

lol ya your right Nvidia can't win the PR on this one.... which is why its annoying there trying too.
 

N4CR

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Good thing governments the size of the US, or China (hosting and bankrolling a lot of mining firms), are not known to stockpile unknown exploits for themselves and never do things like break into companies (either digitally with remote access or delivered pre-compromised HW - or even with actual personnel/spies) to acquire the data they want, regardless of laws. I mean God forbid governments, companies don't ever do that stuff either.
It was law until recent years (or still is?) that any strong encryption exported from USA had to have a backdoor. This is why PGP source code was transported from USA in a book form..
Hardware backdoors and software backdoors exist in a myriad of non-OSS controllers and programs you use each day.
 

Axman

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encryption
Crypto is ITAR-regulated in the U.S. I don't think there's need to turn over the source or deliberately install any backdoors but it is considered a weapon for the purposes of export.
 

N4CR

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So when they gimp them to suck at photoshop.... or gimp them for use in Blender... to sell more expensive quadros or some new creator card.
They already do variants of this for a very long time and most of you didn't care. OGL perf, colour spaces for 'shooping etc. You only got 10bit on nvidia outside of DX windows in the 1000 series... AMD did it all along. Nvidia was still (up until 48CX launch last time I checked/likely still do) gimped 10 bit on HDMI at 4k 120..

And fuck the lame dime a dozen 'E-SPURTS' streamers hahaha that would be a great feature, they pay so much for their gimmick mics and RGB I don't see why ngreedia wouldn't target them for extra coin for 'ultra HD streaming' or multistreaming etc.
 
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