Nvidia publicly bashing Stardock developer over an ALPHA level game

Relayer

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Basically they blamed Oxide in the media without bothering to check first, then realized it was their drivers after they had already opened their mouths.

Im not sure how anyone can take Nvidia's side on this one.
FWIU nVidia sent "a memo" around to the sites claiming that MSAA was bugged and not to use it when reviewing their cards. Sounds like a decision that a PR person would make, rather than wear the issue. Probably thought the Dev was in nVidia's back pocket and was rudely surprised when they stood up.
 

Yakk

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FWIU nVidia sent "a memo" around to the sites claiming that MSAA was bugged and not to use it when reviewing their cards. Sounds like a decision that a PR person would make, rather than wear the issue.
I won't post a name, but that person was a nvidia Senior PR Manager. Not an intern or somebody inexperienced! They knew perfectly well what they were doing.
 

drakken

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... has been building with a lot of draw calls in mind since that is how the recent xbox 360 and xbox one are designed using old ring buss tech. so if they throw a lot of geometry at the card and only one vendor has planned for the calls when that code is run the system that planned to render the geo as instances instead of new draw calls would literately be able to render ten times the geo since it is the same geo but being called as instance the same way you do in dx11... but if say no one else knew to call it as instance then they would be rendering all hardware lite geo and it would look good but slow as possible... which explains the limited number of units and numbers. so in theory all one has to figure out is how to tell when the same assets is being called with a different name...
 

PersonalJ

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Try reading the op, or at least a few posts as #6 has you covered:

http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1041799310&postcount=6

Nvidia already admitted that the MSAA issue was with their drivers and not the game. They've been having issues with their Windows 10 drivers and even the game company says that drivers will mature and results will get better. The only issue here is Nvidia tried to blame them first instead of fixing their drivers. Once AMD and Nvidia have good Windows 10 / DX 12 drivers, specific games won't need the same optimizations they do now.
I said it was a driver issue causing the problem, it's obvious based on the performance exhibited.
 

DracoNB

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I said it was a driver issue causing the problem, it's obvious based on the performance exhibited.
You then said:

The game appears to be an AMD gaming evolved application as AMD is linked in the footer on the game's website so I assume they have had time to optimize properly.
And then I said read my post since its a fact that Nvidia has had the source code for over a year.

Our code has been reviewed by Nvidia, Microsoft, AMD and Intel. It has passed the very thorough D3D12 validation system provided by Microsoft specifically designed to validate against incorrect usages. All IHVs have had access to our source code for over year, and we can confirm that both Nvidia and AMD compile our very latest changes on a daily basis and have been running our application in their labs for months. Fundamentally, the MSAA path is essentially unchanged in DX11 and DX12. Any statement which says there is a bug in the application should be disregarded as inaccurate information.
To this end, we have made our source code available to Microsoft, Nvidia, AMD and Intel for over a year. We have received a huge amount of feedback. For example, when Nvidia noticed that a specific shader was taking a particularly long time on their hardware, they offered an optimized shader that made things faster which we integrated into our code.
How is it an AMD application and Nvidia hasn't had time to optimize, if Nvidia has had access for over a year and even submitted code to it?
 

PersonalJ

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You then said:



And then I said read my post since its a fact that Nvidia has had the source code for over a year.





How is it an AMD application and Nvidia hasn't had time to optimize, if Nvidia has had access for over a year and even submitted code to it?
It depends on whether or not AMD has had more time as it's only stated "over a year" for both and whether or not Nvidia wanted to devote more resources to a very niche game that likely appears to be an AMD gaming evolved title. The only RTS that really matters these days is Starcraft 2 and even that seems pretty dead.

I'm waiting on games that matter like Star Wars Battlefront, I want to see benchmarks from a real deal, AAA developer.
 

DracoNB

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It depends on whether or not AMD has had more time as it's only stated "over a year" for both and whether or not Nvidia wanted to devote more resources to a very niche game that likely appears to be an AMD gaming evolved title. The only RTS that really matters these days is Starcraft 2 and even that seems pretty dead.
If Nvidia didn't want to get their DX 12 drivers up to snuff thats fine, but don't put the blame on the developers as it's obvious they have been very willing for all companies to help optimize and provide feedback.
 

serious

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I3 4330 > FX 8370 ... Tricky Nvidia must have done something with the shader code that secretly crippled AMD's hardware.
 

NeoMatriX724

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I'm waiting on games that matter like Star Wars Battlefront, I want to see benchmarks from a real deal, AAA developer.
This game is literally the only currently accepted benchmark for DX12...Oxide has literally been working on the Nitrous Engine with all the key players in the space for years...

The publisher Stardock has games out that have sold millions, of which, many are extensive in scale. Brad Wardell (of Stardock) has been designing and producing games for over a decade including getting his hands dirty with programming.

Yea, it's not a first person shooter, but they are an order of magnitude more complex than Starcraft in terms of units present on screen, real-time AI simulation, etc. Don't disregard Oxide or Stardock's work.
 

PersonalJ

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If Nvidia didn't want to get their DX 12 drivers up to snuff thats fine, but don't put the blame on the developers as it's obvious they have been very willing for all companies to help optimize and provide feedback.
There won't be any actual DX12 games for months, the previous Star Swarm benchmark results were much different.
http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/1...s-10-exclusive-amd-and-nvidia-go-head-to-head

This game is literally the only currently accepted benchmark for DX12...Oxide has literally been working on the Nitrous Engine with all the key players in the space for years...

The publisher Stardock has games out that have sold millions, of which, many are extensive in scale. Brad Wardell (of Stardock) has been designing and producing games for over a decade including getting his hands dirty with programming.

Yea, it's not a first person shooter, but they are an order of magnitude more complex than Starcraft in terms of units present on screen, real-time AI simulation, etc. Don't disregard Oxide or Stardock's work.
The only claim to fame ashes of the singularity has is it was the first DX12 benchmark, that's not very indicative of anything as it seems like another game stuck in early access hell. I'd like to see a good, finished product benchmarked accordingly. Sins of a Solar empire is not a huge success and is a niche game in a niche genre.
 
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bexamous

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Jesus, that is publicly bashing? I guess if goal is sensationalism... but I dunno why not go all out then, can't we fit 'terrorism' in somehow?
 

DracoNB

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There won't be any actual DX12 games for months, the previous Star Swarm benchmark results were much different.
http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/1...s-10-exclusive-amd-and-nvidia-go-head-to-head
Are you serious? You'd back a result from completely pre-release software all around over newer, stable version of windows / dx12?

Did you bother to read the article:

The performance data in Anandtech’s comparison should be taken with a significant grain of salt. D3D12 support is baked into Windows 10, but the code is early. The drivers from AMD and Nvidia are pre-production, obviously, and the underlying OS it itself in a pre-RTM state.
Also, you do realize that Star Swarm was by the exact same developer you are trying to discredit right?
 

PersonalJ

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Are you serious? You'd back a result from completely pre-release software all around over newer, stable version of windows / dx12?

Did you bother to read the article:



Also, you do realize that Star Swarm was by the exact same developer you are trying to discredit right?
Performance was much different early on, Nvidia has some driver issues and nothing more. These early synthetic benchmarks are absolutely meaningless for gaming performance as we have no actual DX12 titles out.
 

DracoNB

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Performance was much different early on, Nvidia has some driver issues and nothing more. These early synthetic benchmarks are absolutely meaningless for gaming performance as we have no actual DX12 titles out.
Well thats good, because this isn't a synthetic benchmark

What should you expect out of a non-synthetic benchmark?

But what is it exactly that you are going to see in a benchmark that is measuring actual gameplay performance? If you run the Ashes of the Singularity Benchmark, what you are seeing will not be a synthetic benchmark. Synthetic benchmarks can be useful, but they do not give an accurate picture to an end user as to what expect in real world scenarios.
How many more wrong comments are you going to make in this thread before you stop blaming and trying to discredit the developers and just accept that its solely Nvidia's fault.

This is a real world DX12 from the ground developed game. They have been working directly with Microsoft, Intel, Nvidia and AMD to game it as optimized as possible and have helped push DX12.

No one, not even the developers are saying that this will be the final result and that drivers need a lot of work. Stop trying to defend Nvidia and just wait for better drivers from everyone to come out.
 

PersonalJ

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Well thats good, because this isn't a synthetic benchmark



How many more wrong comments are you going to make in this thread before you stop blaming and trying to discredit the developers and just accept that its solely Nvidia's fault.

This is a real world DX12 from the ground developed game. They have been working directly with Microsoft, Intel, Nvidia and AMD to game it as optimized as possible and have helped push DX12.
We don't know whose fault it is, nor does it really matter since this is related to a niche, early access game. Nvidia may have had access for thirteen months and AMD access for 20 months and the existing statement would be true. The truth is the game is clearly related to AMD and probably a gaming evolved title. Compare this to a game like The Witcher 3 that people will actually play, if this game wasn't the first DX12 title to sort of release no one would know about it.
 

PRIME1

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If Nvidia didn't want to get their DX 12 drivers up to snuff thats fine, but don't put the blame on the developers as it's obvious they have been very willing for all companies to help optimize and provide feedback.
It's an alpha version of the game. It's not like how AMD shit the bed with actual released games like Witcher 3, Planet Cars, Farcry 4, etc. :rolleyes:

I know AMD fans are desperate for a win, but this is truly scraping the bottom of the barrel.
 

njp142

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Why read the article when you can be an Nvidia fanboy instead?
I think you're overthinking my comment... I just wanted to state that (whatever the context) Brad Wardell is an asshole. The article could be "Nvidia/AMD says the world is flat and Brad Wardell proves it's round", and I'd still add my comment that Brad Wardell is a misogynist Republican asshole.
 

DracoNB

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We don't know whose fault it is, nor does it really matter since this is related to a niche, early access game. Nvidia may have had access for thirteen months and AMD access for 20 months and the existing statement would be true. The truth is the game is clearly related to AMD and probably a gaming evolved title. Compare this to a game like The Witcher 3 that people will actually play, if this game wasn't the first DX12 title to sort of release no one would know about it.
You are like talking to a brick wall

All you can do is try to discredit the developers while even they are saying that all DX 12 drivers are new and will require a lot of work to get them performing as well as DX 11 ones which have had 5 years of optimization.

I swear I'm just repeating over and over quotes from the article you should have read, but instead continue to spout bullshit and lies.

Often we get asked about fairness, that is, usually if in regards to treating Nvidia and AMD equally? Are we working closer with one vendor then another? The answer is that we have an open access policy. Our goal is to make our game run as fast as possible on everyone’s machine, regardless of what hardware our players have.

To this end, we have made our source code available to Microsoft, Nvidia, AMD and Intel for over a year. We have received a huge amount of feedback. For example, when Nvidia noticed that a specific shader was taking a particularly long time on their hardware, they offered an optimized shader that made things faster which we integrated into our code.
Can you finally stop blaming them and bad mouthing a game you know nothing about?
 

KazeoHin

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It's an alpha version of the game. It's not like how AMD shit the bed with actual released games like Witcher 3, Planet Cars, Farcry 4, etc. :rolleyes:

I know AMD fans are desperate for a win, but this is truly scraping the bottom of the barrel.

It just so happens that every game that AMD 'shits the bed' on is a game works title.... Pure coincidence, in sure.
 

DeadSkull

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It depends on whether or not AMD has had more time as it's only stated "over a year" for both and whether or not Nvidia wanted to devote more resources to a very niche game that likely appears to be an AMD gaming evolved title. The only RTS that really matters these days is Starcraft 2 and even that seems pretty dead.

I'm waiting on games that matter like Star Wars Battlefront, I want to see benchmarks from a real deal, AAA developer.
You don't know who Stardock is? Are you trolling or just plainly stupid....I can't tell, however I will recommend that you stick to kid games and buy yourself a Wii or something.
 

DracoNB

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It's an alpha version of the game. It's not like how AMD shit the bed with actual released games like Witcher 3, Planet Cars, Farcry 4, etc. :rolleyes:

I know AMD fans are desperate for a win, but this is truly scraping the bottom of the barrel.
Wow I forgot about those games running in DX 12

Thanks for the completely off topic comment and once again failing to understand what we are discussing while bad mouthing AMD. It's no wonder half the forum has you on ignore, I think I'll be joining them :)
 

DracoNB

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And since people want to compare this game vs Gameworks for some reason lets look at the policies between both:

Often we get asked about fairness, that is, usually if in regards to treating Nvidia and AMD equally? Are we working closer with one vendor then another? The answer is that we have an open access policy. Our goal is to make our game run as fast as possible on everyone’s machine, regardless of what hardware our players have.

To this end, we have made our source code available to Microsoft, Nvidia, AMD and Intel for over a year. We have received a huge amount of feedback. For example, when Nvidia noticed that a specific shader was taking a particularly long time on their hardware, they offered an optimized shader that made things faster which we integrated into our code.
http://www.oxidegames.com/2015/08/16/the-birth-of-a-new-api/

Gameworks:

GameWorks has been criticized for its proprietary and closed nature. Competitors such as AMD, which do not offer a similar middleware, are unable to properly optimize Nvidia's libraries for their hardware. Users of AMD cards report drastically lower performance than their Nvidia equivalents for games that use the GameWorks API. AMD Chief Gaming Scientist, Richard Huddy, has claimed that developers who use GameWorks are contractually forbidden to work with AMD
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GameWorks_(API)
 

PersonalJ

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You don't know who Stardock is? Are you trolling or just plainly stupid....I can't tell, however I will recommend that you stick to kid games and buy yourself a Wii or something.
Sins of a Solar Empire may not have even moved a million copies digital and physical. I own and have played a few Stardock games but they occupy a very niche market segment.
 

staknhalo

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Stardock is more known for their start menu replacement software than they are for any one or all of their games. However good or poorly their titles run on one brand card or the another is completely insignificant. That's the cold [H]ard truth.
 

DracoNB

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Sins of a Solar Empire may not have even moved a million copies digital and physical. I own and have played a few Stardock games but they occupy a very niche market segment.
It sold 500,000 copies in 2008 and the 2012 expansion sold over 100,000 copies in the first month.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sins_of_a_Solar_Empire

So no idea what the numbers look like now in 2015, but it's not as niche as you'd like to make it seem.
 

The Mac

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It sold 500,000 copies in 2008 and the 2012 expansion sold over 100,000 copies in the first month.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sins_of_a_Solar_Empire

So no idea what the numbers look like now in 2015, but it's not as niche as you'd like to make it seem.
i still play it regularity, and there is a very large active community.

Its widely concidered one of the best 4X games ever made, and regularly makes bloggers top 10 strategy game lists.
 

Chimpee

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This thread seems to really gone off the rails now, can I request thread lock?
 
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i feel my IQ dropping as go through each page of this thread, guess the river must be flooded so all the trolls are out from under their bridge. The days of constructive healthy debate on [H] are never to appear, just lots of shouting down of peoples opinions. bah I'm going out to get some sunshine.
 

5150Joker

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And since people want to compare this game vs Gameworks for some reason lets look at the policies between both:



http://www.oxidegames.com/2015/08/16/the-birth-of-a-new-api/

Gameworks:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GameWorks_(API)
What a bunch of FUD. Publishers that use GW are not prohibited from working with AMD, Richard Huddy is full of shit as usual. They are just not allowed to SHARE the source code but they can get a hold of GW source code from NVIDIA if they choose to.

As for the rest, that's Oxide's word, we don't know how their game engine works and whether it favors GCN vs Maxwell or not. If I had to guess, based on AMD sponsoring them, I'd say it probably does favor AMD.

To those claiming Stardock is some important dev, lol give me a break. Like someone else said, they're best known for making start menus.
 

The Mac

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ummm....

Nvidia has admitted its their drivers.

Im not sure why you would think its oxide's fault.
 

KazeoHin

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ummm....

Nvidia has admitted its their drivers.

Im not sure why you would think its oxide's fault.
I don't think YOU understand. Nvidia drivers are perfect, and they could never be at fault! Anyone who tries to say that Nvidia drivers are at fault for this are simply AMD fanbois who are jealous, even if those people who say this are Nvidia themselves!
 

jwcalla

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Wow that's depressing. Somebody get me a gallon of bleach so I can just end it all now.

This game on DX11, on low quality settings at 1080p, averages from 17 to 34 fps?

Is it any wonder so many people left PC gaming?
 

KGBinUSA

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Wow that's depressing. Somebody get me a gallon of bleach so I can just end it all now.

This game on DX11, on low quality settings at 1080p, averages from 17 to 34 fps?

Is it any wonder so many people left PC gaming?
Thats not settings, but the amount of draw calls. <10000 is low, 10000-20000 is medium, >20000 high.
 

KazeoHin

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Wow that's depressing. Somebody get me a gallon of bleach so I can just end it all now.

This game on DX11, on low quality settings at 1080p, averages from 17 to 34 fps?

Is it any wonder so many people left PC gaming?
I'm not exactly sure of two things:

1: the bench is called Ashes (Heavy). So I'm wondering if this 'Heavy' benchmark is artificially clogging up CPU dependent pipelines, and the 'low' and 'high' you see are more equivalent of standard (I.E. GPU overhead) settings.

2: I'm pretty sure PC gaming has been growing both in gross numbers and market share metrics since the end of 2011/beginning of 2012. (interestingly enough, that coincides with the release of Skyrim, which was noted for introducing a ton of people to the idea of PC modding and flexibility). So I don't think anyone is 'leaving' PC gaming at the moment. If you had said that in 2010, I'd agree.
 

jwcalla

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Thats not settings, but the amount of draw calls. <10000 is low, 10000-20000 is medium, >20000 high.
Ahh! That explains it and now I'm significantly less depressed.

Hopefully they can keep the draw calls to under 2,000 then.
 

5150Joker

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Please provide proof for anything you write, I provided mine.

@jwcalla, its a CPU heavy test, so yes it will be low FPS as its showing CPU scaling and limitations, not GPU.
Oh you want me to spoonfeed you? Sure ok:

With the GameWorks program developers can gain access to source code through a licensing deal with Nvidia. However this means that developers are not allowed to share this code with anyone else without a license, this obviously includes Nvidia&#8217;s competitors like AMD and Intel.
However we&#8217;re told that game developers are still allowed to optimize GameWorks features for competitors&#8217; hardware without showing it to them and as long as it does not negatively impact the performance of Nvidia hardware.

Read more: http://wccftech.com/exclusive-nvidias-amds-perspectives-gameworks-bottom-issue/#ixzz3jDO8FEEW
Does partaking in the GameWorks program preclude a game developer from working with AMD to implement an alternative to a specific GameWorks visual effect like HairWorks for example?
No. We don&#8217;t prohibit them from adding technologies from other IHVs to their games.

Read more: http://wccftech.com/exclusive-nvidias-amds-perspectives-gameworks-bottom-issue/#ixzz3jDOrARMV
So yes, Richard Huddy = full of shit as usual. GW adds a layer of effects on top of a game, it isn't required and certainly isn't detrimental as Witcher 3 has clearly shown. AMD fans and the company itself are butt hurt because they want a free lunch courtesy of NVIDIA. Of course this has been covered a million times in several threads but AMD shills and fanboys seem to ignore it and keep beating that anti-GW drum. But who can blame them? Richard Huddy is spouting nonsense so of course the fanboys will take his lead. AMD is a company with 20% market share and slipping, it will keep crying foul until it inevitably sinks into the abyss.
 
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