I think it's just too easy to default to the "AMD DRIVERS SUXLOLOLOL" response when you know at least 2/3 of the audience would be in agreement. The worst part about that is, the majority of those who carry that sentiment actually don't have a clue what the specific sucky issues are, which only serves to perpetuate the perception that AMD "just sucks".
![[H]ard|Forum](/styles/hardforum/xenforo/logo_dark.png){kind=logo}
Nvidia publicly bashing Stardock developer over an ALPHA level game
- Thread starter Yakk
- Start date
I think it's just too easy to default to the "AMD DRIVERS SUXLOLOLOL" response when you know at least 2/3 of the audience would be in agreement. The worst part about that is, the majority of those who carry that sentiment actually don't have a clue what the specific sucky issues are, which only serves to perpetuate the perception that AMD "just sucks".
KazeoHin
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2011
- Messages
- 9,000
Yep. Its a shame because the graphics (and CPU) markets saw the BEST products and the BIGGEST jumps when the competition between chip vendors was strong. Now we get %10-%20 increases and virtually no price drops because its a 1-sided battle now.
Factum
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2014
- Messages
- 2,455
Thread bookmarked for a revisit in 6 months.
This thread will make an exccelent example in the future...on how not to use pre-gold software.
This thread will make an exccelent example in the future...on how not to use pre-gold software.
Serious question.
Why is the i7 so much faster in dx12 than the 8370?
I thought dx12 would make games less cpu dependent?
Is something not being efficiently scheduled correctly on the amd cpus? Even the i3 posts better numbers with the 390x. Something seems off, does ipc still matter more than core count? What's going on?
Why is the i7 so much faster in dx12 than the 8370?
I thought dx12 would make games less cpu dependent?
Is something not being efficiently scheduled correctly on the amd cpus? Even the i3 posts better numbers with the 390x. Something seems off, does ipc still matter more than core count? What's going on?
KazeoHin
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2011
- Messages
- 9,000
Serious question.
Why is the i7 so much faster in dx12 than the 8370?
I thought dx12 would make games less cpu dependent?
Is something not being efficiently scheduled correctly on the amd cpus? Even the i3 posts better numbers with the 390x. Something seems off, does ipc still matter more than core count? What's going on?
I think that test pushes so hard it makes the CPU the bottleneck.
Its a CPU heavy game since its a lot of simulations for units and not a FPS / 3rd person shooter.
limitedaccess
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- May 10, 2010
- Messages
- 7,594
That why I referenced earlier that the regression suggests there is likely a fault somewhere in the software stack, either the game, drivers or DX12 itself possibly. As opposed to the less likely scenario that there is an inherent weakness in the hardware architecture. Less relative performance gains due to the hardware architecture is a possibility but actual significant regression (well at least in terms of how DX12 has been presented so far)?
DX12 only addresses overhead of a portion of the entire pipeline. This advantage could, in theory, also be offset in practice depending on certain developer decisions resulting in essentially a zero sum gain. Also the threading gains were only ever advertised as spreading (somewhat more, still not perfectly) evenly across 4 threads.
So what would be possible explanations? Physics, simulation, AI, and etc. still take up signficant CPU cycles and these are not as well threaded. You still do not have enough load distribution to signficantly leverage above 4 cores (if at all). Well at least for this particular benchmark (maybe AI for example can thread perfectly to each AI player, meaning an actual 8 AI match would show more scaling on 8 cores).
I get that normally cpu heavy games get larger advantages in dx11 because of having to rely on a single master thread to do a bunch of scheduling, but I thought dx12 made it easier for multiple cpu threads to talk to the gpu in tandem?
So while intel has an ipc advantage, the i3 has a core count deficiency that can be compensated for by using a more parallel capable engine like dx12.... except it seems like ipc is the true metric over everything else. Even on the i7 models, the 6700 with fewer cores does slightly better than the 5xxx series since I guess it has a slight ipc edge being based on skylake. But again, I thought the greater capacity to spread the workload to more cpu cores made that less of a constraint?
Ok, that might be part of the issue, workloads that are more serialized and can't be spread as easily.
More reasons to upgrade to zen next year along with a new gpu.
limitedaccess
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- May 10, 2010
- Messages
- 7,594
There is still limitations. And DirectX12 actually has consistently been advertised as scaling well to 4 threads and not more.
Look at the extremely speciliazed 3dmark test for instance (so extremely limited CPU usage for anything else that would be required for a game) - http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphics-Cards/3DMark-API-Overhead-Feature-Test-Early-DX12-Performance
Scaling essentially stops at 6 cores. Even then 4->6cores is much lower and that is not considering the inbetween scenario of hyperthreading (Intel's 4c/8t CPUs).
Or starswarm, note the scaling from 4->6cores (or lack thereof) - http://www.anandtech.com/show/8962/the-directx-12-performance-preview-amd-nvidia-star-swarm/4
If you are trying to calculate 1000 things per second even 8 cores won't handle it efficiently
So since Intel's per core is so much better, each one can do a lot more per second.
So yes, DX 12 is better for multithreading as you can see by it almost doubling the FPS, but the CPU core "quality" is still the limiting factor in CPU heavy workloads.
Now in GPU heavy games, the weaker cores on AMD processors won't matter as much, because it will be less overhead, and more of the cores will work.
Also remember the pricing on these, even removing the lower cost for amd motherboards, the chips are:
Intel:
5960X - $1050
6700K - $350ish?
4430 - $185
AMD:
8370 - $199
6300 - $99
Semantics
2[H]4U
- Joined
- May 18, 2010
- Messages
- 2,811
Pricing doesn't mean much because lack of cpu competition, intel just prices based on AMD performance and goes from there.
Serious question.
Why is the i7 so much faster in dx12 than the 8370?
I thought dx12 would make games less cpu dependent?
Is something not being efficiently scheduled correctly on the amd cpus? Even the i3 posts better numbers with the 390x. Something seems off, does ipc still matter more than core count? What's going on?
Comparing the 6700K to the 5960 it doesn't look like it currently scales beyond 4 cores.
Dayaks
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2012
- Messages
- 9,773
980ti vs Fury X DX12
http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/2...-singularity-amd-and-nvidia-go-head-to-head/2
http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/2...-singularity-amd-and-nvidia-go-head-to-head/2
NVIDIA dropped the ball big time the past 3 months or so with drivers.
primetime
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2005
- Messages
- 7,337
Pretty much what we expected...Good showing for the underdogs (for now) I wonder how the older series cards perform?
Pretty much what we expected...Good showing for the underdogs (for now) I wonder how the older series cards perform?
what do you think the 390 is? unless you mean nvidia.
primetime
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2005
- Messages
- 7,337
Oh well i guess, i was talking about the 200 series and 7000 series like what i use
Oh well i guess, i was talking about the 200 series and 7000 series like what i use
i would bet anything that supported mantel, will have good results here.
D
Deleted member 126051
Guest
D
Deleted member 126051
Guest
And, if it is (as has been said) in Alpha stage, you're probably dealing with a lot of debugging code too. So we could see an efficiency increase in the game down the road as the debugging code is disabled/removed.
cageymaru
Fully [H]
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2003
- Messages
- 22,076
Brilliance is often mistaken for arrogance.
You probably should read the article then...and see that Nvidia actually screwed up...
Ignorance is a bliss, right?
Because fanboys are typically idiots when it comes to actually understanding the pros and cons of technology?
I brought up pricing because it matters. When you buy the 8 core AMD for the same price as a i3 4core and performance is the same... well thats what matters. You can't compare the $200 part to a $1000 one and wonder why the $1000 is twice as fast.
Digital Viper-X-
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2000
- Messages
- 15,115
Michaelius
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2003
- Messages
- 4,684
Yep his portfolio is truly amazing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Wardell
And the Oxide as company have such an amazing record off:
- releasing custom made benchmark to showcase Mantle
- annoucing 3 Mantle games in development - the games were in so advanced production that two of them still don't have titles and first one just entered Alpha stage as DX12 game
Did you mean to list the games they have done here, or just the ones they haven't released since since forming a new company in 2013?
This just shows that people will turn over a rock that they want to and when presented with something under that rock, they can hide it.
Kind of a terrible analogy.
Yakk
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2010
- Messages
- 5,810
I've said my piece on this subject already, but guys, the one thing I ask in this thread is not to fall for, or quote, the obvious trolling.
Personal attacks... Not worth reading.
FYI, Brad Wardell has been around a looooong time in one form or another.
Personal attacks... Not worth reading.
FYI, Brad Wardell has been around a looooong time in one form or another.