NVIDIA & Multi-display Gaming Editorial @ [H]

[Rock&Roll]

March = 3+ months? What calander do you have?

I'm not being optimistic. I'm thinking April/May, unless I hear solid news that gives me reason to think otherwise. But, thanks for playing the smart-ass game. This place wouldn't be so cool without it.

 

[Kraeshok]

March = 3+ months? What calander do you have?

Jen-Hsun Huang said during CES that Fermi is Q1 Nvidia and not World Q1. So they have until end of April..

 

[BIG$pender]

Originally Posted by Rock&Roll
I suppose it's time to drop the CRT? (FFS I wish there was a DECENT 120Hz LCD for sale, not some TN crap)

Indeed! I dropped CRT about 14 years ago, And haven't looked back since. Why do you need 120Hz? 60 is just fine, And TN is hardly an issue if you are gaming. Are you going for perfect color, or viewing your monitor from askew while gaming? (sais the man with the IPS monitor ) If you are doing professional photoshop work or smth, Then it's understandable. I guess some ppl are hyper sensitive to these sorts of things.

 

[oldpablo]

Mainly because it's attached to their self image.

 

[Rock&Roll]

60 is just fine, And TN is hardly an issue if you are gaming.

60Hz is fine....for television. I've played some comp FPS matches (TF2 these days), and 60Hz is fail for smooth tracking of fast moving objects. Often times, it can be the reason I didn't see something coming at me from the corner of my screen. 85Hz and 120Hz has a huge advantage in this situation. I didn't notice it until I started playing in environments that required the quickest reaction. Now I notice when things dip below 80fps. It really affects how quickly I am able to get information from all areas of the screen, not just the middle. It's hard to fully explain unless you've been there, seen, and felt the difference.

And TN is great, on small monitors. But, being that this is a multi-display gaming thread, it pretty much implies that i'll be viewing my 24"+ monitor(s) from askew.

 

[SixtyWattMan]

Indeed! I dropped CRT about 14 years ago, And haven't looked back since. Why do you need 120Hz? 60 is just fine, And TN is hardly an issue if you are gaming. Are you going for perfect color, or viewing your monitor from askew while gaming? (sais the man with the IPS monitor ) If you are doing professional photoshop work or smth, Then it's understandable. I guess some ppl are hyper sensitive to these sorts of things.

120hz is just better than 60hz that's why everyone wants it, I very much loved my CRT running at 1600x1200@85hz. TN looks like crap especially once you put them side by side with IPS or VA panels.

 

[RamonGTP]

My current 24" is a TN panel and I really don't have any complaints. However, when it's time for a change, i'll be going IPS. I do more than just game on my PC and it would be nice to have the nice deep colors for other tasks.

 

[refraxion]

I loved the last paragraph. That was golden!

 

[phide]

[NVIDIA] could help developers in arranging game UI elements within the displays (so they're on the center display rather than the side displays)

How would that affect Eyefinity? The optimal configuration for the HUD is for it to be exclusively on the center display anyway, at least in ordinary circumstances. You don't want HUD elements on the periphery.

If you have three 1920x1200 monitors, you have a 5760x1200 frame for Eyefinity and a 5760x1200 frame for Surround (ostensibly). The only way you could force something different for each would be to do VID detection or have the developers ship the "broken" version for Eyefinity and have NVIDIA's drivers do executable detection and do an override to "fix" the HUD.

Given that developers won't need to do anything special for Eyefinity and NVIDIA Surround support, NVIDIA wouldn't need to supply TWIMTBP developers with any code to support NVIDIA Surround that might end up crippling Eyefinity (unless there's some "enhanced" features NVIDIA's going to tout). If the game can render out to the desired resolution for Eyefinity, Eyefinity is going to work.

they could help implement special code that takes into account borders/bezzels on a game per game basis (which ATI is supposedly working on but it's still nowhere to be seen)

Again, how would that specifically affect Eyefinity? We're very likely talking about special code that would have no reason for being implemented on the developer side.

Anyone that believes that NV couldn't do this is deluding themselves...

I think the same of those who already believe NVIDIA will without even knowing precisely how the technology works and what capabilities NVIDIA has for mucking things up for Eyefinity users.

 

[heatlesssun]

I think the same of those who already believe NVIDIA will without even knowing precisely how the technology works and what capabilities NVIDIA has for mucking things up for Eyefinity users.

This. Until we know more about the technology then everything is speculation. But I don't see how nVidia OR AMD could prevent the other from supporting multi-monitor support with a an application unless the application where specifically coded NOT support multi-monitor under certain hardware.

Multi-monitor is supported with the driver correct? Is there any game on the market that works with Eyefinity that is actually AWARE of Eyefinity? I mean these technologies wouldn't be all that exciting if an application had to be specifically coded to support Eyefinity correct?

 

[SixtyWattMan]

This. Until we know more about the technology then everything is speculation. But I don't see how nVidia OR AMD could prevent the other from supporting multi-monitor support with a an application unless the application where specifically coded NOT support multi-monitor under certain hardware.

Multi-monitor is supported with the driver correct? Is there any game on the market that works with Eyefinity that is actually AWARE of Eyefinity? I mean these technologies wouldn't be all that exciting if an application had to be specifically coded to support Eyefinity correct?

They will be aware of what vendors card is in the system and that's all they need.

 

[heatlesssun]

They will be aware of what vendors card is in the system and that's all they need.

Who is they? The developer correct? Sure the app can detect the card and say no multi-monitor support. But that's outside nVidia's control.

Sure nVidia could try to slip this into TWIMTBP titles I guess, but the blow back would be SO bad that I just don't see how it would benefit nVidia to do this.

 

[Mad Cat]

Sure nVidia could try to slip this into TWIMTBP titles I guess, but the blow back would be SO bad that I just don't see how it would benefit nVidia to do this.

And that's why Kyle wrote the article - to emphasize the severity of the blow back and to warn the manufacturers of what is to come if they do attempt such a move.

 

[SixtyWattMan]

Who is they? The developer correct? Sure the app can detect the card and say no multi-monitor support. But that's outside nVidia's control.

Sure nVidia could try to slip this into TWIMTBP titles I guess, but the blow back would be SO bad that I just don't see how it would benefit nVidia to do this.

It is not outside of nvidia's control, all they have to do is tell the developer "HERE IS $XXXXXX DO THIS" and the developer will more than likely do it and slap a TWIMTBP logo on the starting screen and box.

 

[phide]

I haven't heard of any instance of money changing hands in TWIMTBP.

 

[RamonGTP]

There's a lot of things I haven't heard of. That doens't mean they don't exist.

 

[Epitaph64]

I agree with Mike89 on most parts, but I am a bit excited for 3D gaming. Setting up multi-monitor? No thanks. I move my pc to friend's houses, and all over the place, and it just wouldn't be realistic for me. However, 3D gaming sounds like it could be quite exciting, but only whenever it becomes a mainstream feature of monitors/GPUs before I would buy into it.

 

[Gorankar]

I haven't heard of any instance of money changing hands in TWIMTBP.

It technically doesn't, so far as I have ever seen. But having a team of coders sent over by Nv to write parts of your game's code for you, is the same thing as money to most thinking people. It's obviously not just happening to make sure Nv cards work with a game either. Since, if that was really necessary, Ati cards would almost never work, and yet still somehow do. It's Nv's way to pay with out looking like they are paying imho. Less nefarious, but otherwise still like Intel's rebates and advertising dollars, that caused them so much trouble.

 

[krotch]

Multiple monitors to game with, I'm for. What I mainly want though, is a bezel-less monitor. Even if we don't get the multiple monitors going for gaming, I'd still get the monitor.

The only reason why I haven't gone multiple monitors and just go with a single larger monitor.

 

[phide]

There's a lot of things I haven't heard of. That doens't mean they don't exist.

I'm just not sure I understand why we're getting all bent out of shape about a hunch of the possibility that something might happen based on lazy and spurious assumptions. Call me crazy, but that doesn't seem like sound judgment to me.

It's obviously not just happening to make sure Nv cards work with a game either.

Nope. TWIMTBP is all about optimizing games for NVIDIA hardware. They make no bones about that. AMD could be putting their own stamp on TWIMTBP games as well, since there's no vendor lockout type deal, but they haven't put nearly enough resources into GITG to be able to do that. That's just NVIDIA being aggressive and AMD being lax (which ends up hurting AMD owners in the end).

It's Nv's way to pay with out looking like they are paying imho.

I won't dispute that. What I take issue with is the notion that NVIDIA's out there directly pumping funds into developers' coffers, because there's no evidence of that kind of thing going on (so far).

 

[Gorankar]

Nope. TWIMTBP is all about optimizing games for NVIDIA hardware. They make no bones about that. AMD could be putting their own stamp on TWIMTBP games as well, since there's no vendor lockout type deal, but they haven't put nearly enough resources into GITG to be able to do that. That's just NVIDIA being aggressive and AMD being lax (which ends up hurting AMD owners in the end).

Aside from Crossfire sometimes not working in a new game til a driver update, how have AMD customers been harmed by not doing this coding for the devs? Err how were they harmed that had nothing to do with Batman AA anti aliasing type issues anyway?

Take TWIMTBP away, and I would be willing to bet, that Batman would have ended up with nearly the same generic AA code as Nv copy and pasted for them, and then locked to their own hardware. TWIMTBP and GITG, (if it ends up ever being run the same way), are not good for gamers. They are good for their respective GPU vendors at the expense of gamers that use the other vendor's cards. It's their way of taking control in a situation where the standards, and API's are all controlled by someone else.
That Nv might try to use TWIMTBP to sabotage Eyefinity is a realistic fear given Nv's behaviour over the last few years. I don't think they will do anything like that at this point, but I can not say for sure they will not.

 

[DarkLegacy]

I lol'd at Kyles last paragraph. I for one though will applaud Nvidia if they DID have some Nvidia powered games lock out Eyefinity. My style of competition is to screw over whoever stands in my way.I will step on anyone & everyone to get where I want to be. I wouldn't have the job I do if I didn't. It's pretty much no different than what most tech based companies do this day. Intel, Google, Apple, etc. So while it may be lame if they did do it, I wowuld still consider it fair game.

 

[Rock&Roll]

Because working around such constraints, as a consumer, is so much fun. But fun mainly because we know we're getting screwed because of poprietary competition over something that should be an open standard which helps company X of X&Y companies come closer to realizing their monopolistic dream..... As if there aren't already enough constraints to entering the EF/3DVS market, like spending a shitload on monitors and multiple video cards to have enough power to generate that much fillrate. Nvidia's SLi tax is already absurd enough.

 

[Nenu]

I lol'd at Kyles last paragraph. I for one though will applaud Nvidia if they DID have some Nvidia powered games lock out Eyefinity. My style of competition is to screw over whoever stands in my way.I will step on anyone & everyone to get where I want to be. I wouldn't have the job I do if I didn't. It's pretty much no different than what most tech based companies do this day. Intel, Google, Apple, etc. So while it may be lame if they did do it, I wowuld still consider it fair game.

FBI tagged

 

[Derangel]

I lol'd at Kyles last paragraph. I for one though will applaud Nvidia if they DID have some Nvidia powered games lock out Eyefinity. My style of competition is to screw over whoever stands in my way.I will step on anyone & everyone to get where I want to be. I wouldn't have the job I do if I didn't. It's pretty much no different than what most tech based companies do this day. Intel, Google, Apple, etc. So while it may be lame if they did do it, I wowuld still consider it fair game.

No it should NOT be applauded. Just because shit like that is common does not mean its right or good business. I can bet you that Kyle is serious about his threat (at least to a point). Nivdia would to stupid to piss off someone with as much influence as Kyle and you can bet he wouldn't be the only big name on this side of the industry pissed by that kind of move. TWIMTBP program is a good move. Locking PhysX to CUDA was a good move. Preventing people from running PhysX if there is an ATI card in the system is a dumb move (they would sell cards to ATI owners if it was possible without a work around). Anything like Kyle is talking about would be a very dumb move.

 

[DarkLegacy]

We all have on our own opinions & our approaches to what makes a successful business is different. That can be determined by our two post. I'm just that kind of employee that would climb the corporate ladder by kicking everyone else off of it. The kind of guy that would yell " YEAH, Stick it to em! " when I see a competing company get screwed. I don't play fair, Playing fair is what makes you go under in time. So I like to see when companies are at each other throats trying to get the upperhand in any way possible. Is it entertaining to me? Maybe.... but it's the rules & standards that I would set for myself. Even when I worked at McDonalds when I was 18 LOL.

 

[SereLaw]

I have nothing to add of value.
The guy from Nvidia looks like a sloth.
I can't believe he disgusts me as much as he does.
Something about him makes my skin crawl.

 

[SixtyWattMan]

We all have on our own opinions & our approaches to what makes a successful business is different. That can be determined by our two post. I'm just that kind of employee that would climb the corporate ladder by kicking everyone else off of it. The kind of guy that would yell " YEAH, Stick it to em! " when I see a competing company get screwed. I don't play fair, Playing fair is what makes you go under in time. So I like to see when companies are at each other throats trying to get the upperhand in any way possible. Is it entertaining to me? Maybe.... but it's the rules & standards that I would set for myself. Even when I worked at McDonalds when I was 18 LOL.

Yeah that's the just kind of attitude everyone needs in this world. It's what makes everything so great.

 

[Derangel]

We all have on our own opinions & our approaches to what makes a successful business is different. That can be determined by our two post. I'm just that kind of employee that would climb the corporate ladder by kicking everyone else off of it. The kind of guy that would yell " YEAH, Stick it to em! " when I see a competing company get screwed. I don't play fair, Playing fair is what makes you go under in time. So I like to see when companies are at each other throats trying to get the upperhand in any way possible. Is it entertaining to me? Maybe.... but it's the rules & standards that I would set for myself. Even when I worked at McDonalds when I was 18 LOL.

Oh I'm not saying they should play fair at all times, but they shouldn't do things to piss off their customer base and people who have a lot of influence on their customers. I believe in capitalism and playing fair isn't always part of that. I understand that perfectly. It just these companies need to have a better grasp on their PR. Nvidia's attitude and moves will bite them in the ass one of these days if they keep on the same path they've been going on. When companies get as arrogant and full of themselves as Nvidia seems to have gotten they usually get knocked down a few pegs badly, especially in this industry. Companies fighting tooth and nail for my business means only good things for gamers, but stifling innovation and advancement isn't going to end well.

 

[DarkLegacy]

Yeah that's the just kind of attitude everyone needs in this world. It's what makes everything so great.

I do agree with you. No one should be like that. I can change my ways with the snap of my fingers but I choose not to. I have my reasons why I am the way I am. Those reasons are what motivate me to try harder than the man next to me. Those reasons are why I am willing to learn skills in my field that others wouldn't bother to. Those reasons are why I am at a higher position & paygrade than my co workers who are both more certified & have longer on the job time than I do.

@ Derangel - I'm sure that this will tick some people off but then people have to understand that this is just how competition works. AMD can come out tomorrow & do the same exact thing with their Eyefinity & that would be just as awesome to me. Even if they did go ahead & do it, the rage would blow over in 1 month tops. After that, tech gurus will find ways to work around it & break it so it works on AMD based GPU hardware. Which is the same situation with Physx.

 

[Blackbird0147]

Not for me.
I'm running Xfire 5770's and cannot use 3 DVI ports.
I would need to either buy an expensive active displayport adapter or buy a displayport monitor.

I have come to dislike displayport because :
a) its being forced on us without merit on ATI cards
b) diversifying display connection standards can only lead to more confusion and costs.
c) there is no need for displayport, hdmi is more than capable.
d) I'm a bit annoyed because AMD could display from both cards, avoiding this unnecessary mess for those with 2 cards.

You don't need to buy an active displayport adapter, check out http://support.amd.com/us/eyefinity/Pages/eyefinity-dongles.aspx. Many on this list are passive and still are supported by eyefinity.

 

[Derangel]

I do agree with you. No one should be like that. I can change my ways with the snap of my fingers but I choose not to. I have my reasons why I am the way I am. Those reasons are what motivate me to try harder than the man next to me. Those reasons are why I am willing to learn skills in my field that others wouldn't bother to. Those reasons are why I am at a higher position & paygrade than my co workers who are both more certified & have longer on the job time than I do.

@ Derangel - I'm sure that this will tick some people off but then people have to understand that this is just how competition works. AMD can come out tomorrow & do the same exact thing with their Eyefinity & that would be just as awesome to me. Even if they did go ahead & do it, the rage would blow over in 1 month tops. After that, tech gurus will find ways to work around it & break it so it works on AMD based GPU hardware. Which is the same situation with Physx.

AMD could, but they have a different philosophy. AMD really gets behind big open standards. Their answer to 3D Vision an open device developed by Bit Cauldron. Nvidia is like Apple and Sony, all about proprietary stuff. And honestly I don't expect PhysX to last long once Havok puts out a GPU API for its engine. CUDA itself might last a while, it seems like something that could end up being good competition against OpenCL.

 

[fdiaz78]

This multi-display technology is very nice but lets face it people, it is really a niche product that will serve what? 1% of the enthutiast market?

I just wish Nvidia would focus on the Fermi and get it out the door so we can get some competition in the market.

 

[Gorankar]

This multi-display technology is very nice but lets face it people, it is really a niche product that will serve what? 1% of the enthutiast market?

I just wish Nvidia would focus on the Fermi and get it out the door so we can get some competition in the market.

SLI/Crossfire, GPU Physics, Eyefinity/Nfinity, and 3D Vision are all niches within the PC gamer niche, but it's nice to have them as options. What is not nice, is when somebody comes along and works to limit them for their own financial gain.

 

[Jutsu]

This multi-display technology is very nice but lets face it people, it is really a niche product that will serve what? 1% of the enthutiast market?

I just wish Nvidia would focus on the Fermi and get it out the door so we can get some competition in the market.

For now it is a niche, but as the tech matures I see it being adopted by more and more people. LED displays will become mainstream and LCDs are going to become even cheaper to the point where it will be foolish not to have multi-display.

I think whats going to kill Nvidia is this push for 3D, I really hope AMD does not follow suit and invests more time and money into making a faster and more efficient cards instead of wasting its time on "eye tricks" like Nvidia is now. I don't think I will ever take 3D gaming with more than a grain of salt..

 

[R3MF]

For god’s sake NVIDIA, if you pull this bullshit where NVIDIA Surround "games" will not work on Eyefinity configurations, we are going to beat NVIDIA down repeatedly and publicly for harming the PC gaming industry. Keep those crappy proprietary PhysX policies, but if you start messing with OUR multi-display gaming and not letting it remain "open platform," I will personally lead the mob with the burning torches to the castle gates. And we will be fully prepared to use the torches. I will personally lead a boycott of NVIDIA products if I see NVIDIA harm multi-display gaming in the marketplace through an IP grab. Multi-display gaming belongs to gamers, not NVIDIA.

from a person with three nvidia PC's in his sig - 100% agreed Kyle!

 

[DESmack]

Commentators who cut through the BS earn my respect every time. Awesome Kyle. Just awesome.

 

[RamonGTP]

@ Derangel - I'm sure that this will tick some people off but then people have to understand that this is just how competition works. AMD can come out tomorrow & do the same exact thing with their Eyefinity & that would be just as awesome to me. Even if they did go ahead & do it, the rage would blow over in 1 month tops. After that, tech gurus will find ways to work around it & break it so it works on AMD based GPU hardware. Which is the same situation with Physx.

For someone with a "fuck the world, it's all about me" attitude, I'm surprised you'd want this as it does not benefit YOU in anyway unless you work for ither nVidia or AMD

 

[Mohonri]

A computer with 3 Display Ports, not DisplayPort™s, and currently no nVidia consumer product has more than 2.

I also caught onto this little nugget:

The booth in the grand lobby is running on dual GTX285s and three Acer projectors. The projectors are 720p using CRT connectors.

Does this mean that nVidia will support multi-monitor using VGA connections, while ATi wont? That, to me, is a competitive advantage. (I'm a cheapskate--that means all my monitors only have VGA at this point)

Those were some serious Words you Fired across Nvidia's Bow, I surely hope you mean them, as the Gaming Industry is Currently the One Revenue Stream that appears to be Successfull at the Momen. I for One would not appreciate any IP Shenanigans like you described, and I too would Vote with my Dollars, and in a Tight Economy who in their Right Mind would attempt something like that? Hmmn!

The torches and pitchforks are fun and all, but the real way to send a message is by taking your wallet and buying AMD/ATi. IF nVidia misbehave again. Hopefully they will heed Kyle's warning.

I have nothing to add of value.
The guy from Nvidia looks like a sloth.
I can't believe he disgusts me as much as he does.
Something about him makes my skin crawl.

I get the same feeling from Obama's Press Secretary. Is creepiness a prerequisite for becoming a PR flack?

 

[Silus]

SLI/Crossfire, GPU Physics, Eyefinity/Nfinity, and 3D Vision are all niches within the PC gamer niche, but it's nice to have them as options. What is not nice, is when somebody comes along and works to limit them for their own financial gain.

I'm sure that you realize that applies to any company. Something that Kyle seems to have missed in this article...for some reason