17seconds
n00b
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And do you have any games that are not straight out of the AMD Gaming Evolved program to compare to?
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NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 Founders Edition Review @ [H]
- Thread starter FrgMstr
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The problem is, right now AMD's got nothing that competes with the GTX 1080, not even under DX12 or Vulvan.
Perhaps some day AMD will come out with something better. And perhaps someday NVidia will get better at DX12 and Vulcan.
It could be a lot of fun to watch, and might bring us, the end users, some better stuff at better prices.
lolfail9001
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Incidentally, the games that have been coded "properly" involved AMD's assistance, totally not GameWorks scenario. Also, gains don't matter, the absolute performance does and admittedly, in AMD assisted stuff, AMD has a lead tier-for-tier.
Also, i suppose you did not even entertain the thought that RotR may just be the sort of game that really cannot make good use of Dx12 on modern systems that have far superior hardware to consoles.
Even the developer themselves have stated that the DX12 implementation in ROTR wasn't complete. The fact that AMD GPUs get almost no FPS boost by switching to DX12 code path kind of proves it. I dunno. For an entirely new low level API it sure doesn't look like it was a game written for DX12.
That sounds like unsupported speculation to me.
Perhaps it's not badly coded for DX12, but is instead extremely well-coded for DX11. Unless you've seen the actual code, how would you know?
chameleoneel
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Yeah, funny about that. Doom 3 was Nvidia's game. Now with Vulkan, Doom 4 is AMD's game!
"Incidentally, the games that have been coded "properly" involved AMD's assistance"
OK great, sure maybe thats the case, but they are still having huge gain in DX12/vulkan.
Now lets think about that from an outside perspective and unbiased view point:
Don't you think if Nvidia could do the same thing to gain an advantage in dx12/vulkan they would? They have a budget that is 10X amd budget, yet there has not been a single "Nvidia optimized" DX12/vulkan game. Nvidia is ignoring it because their hardware does not support as well as AMD. Nvidia will have this fixed in the next hardware release after Pascal for sure, so this is something that will probably only affect pascal gen
Until Nvidia shows Huge DX12/vulkan games, even if its an "NVIDIA hairworks" sponsored title, I think you can safely assume that Nvidia is ignoring if for a a good reason. They are not stupid and if they could make the same gains as AMD in those api's they would have had them done well before amd did
OK great, sure maybe thats the case, but they are still having huge gain in DX12/vulkan.
Now lets think about that from an outside perspective and unbiased view point:
Don't you think if Nvidia could do the same thing to gain an advantage in dx12/vulkan they would? They have a budget that is 10X amd budget, yet there has not been a single "Nvidia optimized" DX12/vulkan game. Nvidia is ignoring it because their hardware does not support as well as AMD. Nvidia will have this fixed in the next hardware release after Pascal for sure, so this is something that will probably only affect pascal gen
Until Nvidia shows Huge DX12/vulkan games, even if its an "NVIDIA hairworks" sponsored title, I think you can safely assume that Nvidia is ignoring if for a a good reason. They are not stupid and if they could make the same gains as AMD in those api's they would have had them done well before amd did
TBH, I wouldn't mind seeing a "modern-day" GTX 560 Ti 448 again (had one back in the day). With a minimal overclock, you could get GTX 570-level performance at a decent discount. There's still a big gap from the GTX 1060 to the GTX 1070 performance-wise, which a "Ti 448-style" model could plug up.
Doubt you'll see that, Nvidia is more worried about cannibalizing its own products than AMD these days. No SLI is purely a decision to protect the the 1070/80 sales.
17seconds
n00b
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That's exactly my point. How do we know how well games are coded? Isn't it possible that AotS and Hitman are also poorly coded, but in a way that appears to show favoritism?
People attribute the AMD advantage in these games to DirectX 12, but those game engines have both strongly favored AMD for years. Heck, AotS was originally developed as the first showcase for Mantle. How can anyone look at those results and claim DirectX 12 dominance without also acknowledging that it's a highly optimized AMD game, regardless of API.
Sadly, I agree with you on NVIDIA's planning -- was hoping for a nicer backup card until the big guns (Titan/Ti/Vega) come out. But as it stands, looks like a custom AIB Rx 480 will have to do.
chameleoneel
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Well [H] has specifically gone out of their way to look at 4k in the recent past so I'm not sure what you want? And a 1060 isn't meant for 4k in new games. Neither is the 480. The 480 needs crossfire, to even run BF4 multiplayer at 60fps, average. and that's not with all settings maxed. 4K isn't ready for mid-range primetime. Its only just now becoming realistic, for high end cards.
And testing a new game like Far Cry Primal, won't tell you anything about how it will run an older game, such as Far Cry 3.
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I didn't say the 780 was mid-range. You totally misread my post.
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Probably, but I would not count on one from HardOCP covering 1060 and 4K. The perf is just not there.
D
Deleted whining member 223597
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No, not really. You are the one saying the midrange hasn't changed much in the past 1-2 years, yet the 1060 is almost 100% faster than the GTX 960. Honestly, you always tell people they misunderstood you if they disagree with you, but maybe it's because nobody knows what you're actually trying to say.
I realize it may not be what you're looking for, but the 1060 is still around 50% faster than your 780 depending on the game.
My understanding (and I am a software developer although don't work on graphics).. is that the new APIs significantly lower the draw call overhead.. they also allow for each "object" in a given game to execute their own draw calls.. In the past on DX11 it was the driver that executed draw calls when it deemed them necessary.. New approach makes the whole process more asynchronous, multithreaded and more efficient. However the game has to be coded for it.
My take on ROTR is that it started its development as a DX11 game and DX12 was something they tacked on later, according to developers own admission even.
Id Soft has shown what can be done in Vulkan Doom patch. Even without utilizing async compute heavily the Vulkan clearly shows the advantage of this approach and not just on AMD cards.
We will likely see games with poor implementation, that's always been the case even on DX11.. but those that push the boundaries will implement it properly. To me this is not too different to when we switched from single core to multicore. It took games a long time to scale across multiple cores.. now they have even more of an incentive to tap into this new found low overhead power, especially if their games also target GCN based consoles.
Nope the games that support dx12 and coded from the start always seem to perform better on amd. ROTR for xbox one was coded with async compute from the start I know but PC version was Nvidia sponsored and didn't have shit support form the go. It seems like they held that back and patched it later. Being an nvidia owner I really call bullshit on that. That is holding technology back, now it has async finally for pc as well and dx12 support. It seems like all these titles that were Nvidia sponsored were pushed out with dx11 support first and then patched to dx12. I wonder why, it may have something to do with nvidia sponsoring the pc title and holding back dx12 support. While titles support dx12 out of the box seems to be much better. Its more nvidia gimping it from the start for PC than anything.
Its just that AMD is pushing for better implementation of dx12. If ROTR had async for xbox from the beginning why do you think they came out with pc version without it and dx11? You can thank nvidia for that.
Does AMD get a free pass for penalising their cards 10-30% in DirectX 11 and prior? I currently have a GTX680, but had a 4850 before that.. if I had a previous gen AMD card today though.. I'd be a bit pissed at AMD for not being able to write decent DX11 drivers that took full advantage of my card..
Perhpas that statement should be qualified. I have been gaming on a GTX 970 at 4K for a bit, quite enjoyably, waiting to get my GTX 1080. I just could not turn most of the eye candy on.
I preferred 4K on the GTX 970 to 1440p on the GTX 970, the higher dot pitch really improved the look of the game. So I'm sure the 1060 can do 4K gaming, just not with as much eye candy as [H]ardOCP readers probably want.
Now, course, with my GTX 1080, I have that finer dot pitch and much more eye candy too. Looks great.
What's the unit of measure for eye candy, anyway? Mega-pez per second?
"Does AMD get a free pass for penalising their cards 10-30% in DirectX 11 and prior? I currently have a GTX680, but had a 4850 before that.. if I had a previous gen AMD card today though.. I'd be a bit pissed at AMD for not being able to write decent DX11 drivers that took full advantage of my card.."
Yes great Nvidia tactic there, instead of looking to the future lets talk about the past
Yes great Nvidia tactic there, instead of looking to the future lets talk about the past
As opposed to AMD's tactic of talking up the future while ignoring the inconvenient present?
You are probably going to have a bit more of a wait either way, all the cards are sold out. But I agree, the custom 480s should be here by now, the card launched a month sooner, and nvidias partners for the 1060 have custom versions available day 1? WTF is going on?
Jayz2shilling already did a video comparing an evga sc 1060 to a thermally throttled reference rx 480 that was certainly not able to stay at the 1266 speed.
AMD needs to stop having non optimal cards at launch, and if so, they need to ramp up the delivery. Also, they need to help bring out as many dx12/vulkan games as possible, some of the most popular franchises are still best tested with all they have, dx11, like gta 5, that came out ages ago. When the new versions of tentpole games launch, it is absolutely imperative they launch with well coded games that can actually take advantage of amd cards like hitman/ashes/doom - please god no more tomb raider.
What engine did tome raider use? (goes to look)
Foundation... ok, we need a new foundation guys.
chameleoneel
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I mean, someday, maybe it will be revealed that Nividia was paying devs to hold back use of new API's. Until then......we are pretty much nailing it right now, with AMD's own proposed timeline for general use of GPU compute, in games. Someone was saying earlier that the consoles are the reason we are even here, now, at all. Probably true. What is also true, is that AMD said it would be a couple of years (from the PS4/Xbone launch) before GPU compute would really start becoming a fundamental addition to game development. The takeaway was that they simply had to get devs trained up on it and get the tools out there. And now, we are seeing that. And as I mentioned in another thread, AMD has rather public ally been gunning R&D and marketing, towards GPU compute and asynchronus methods. Whereas, that maybe has not been as much the case, with Nvidia.
Sure, aggressive dev teams with custom/semi-custom engines, or focusing on a single platform, can do this stuff yesterday. But most games are made on middlewares and/or in environments where multiple targets/platforms, are being developed for. Without good tools and/or familiarity, cutting edge techniques take longer to trickle into a typical development setup.
*you also have to consider time, itself. Tomb Raider's development was likely started before there were ANY DX12 tools and GPU compute was still a little cilantro to sprinkle into DX11. Carmack is a nerd, so I'm sure he made someone lose sleep to get Vulkan into Doom 4. It probably won't be until next year, that just about every game ships with a codepath for a new API.
Sure, aggressive dev teams with custom/semi-custom engines, or focusing on a single platform, can do this stuff yesterday. But most games are made on middlewares and/or in environments where multiple targets/platforms, are being developed for. Without good tools and/or familiarity, cutting edge techniques take longer to trickle into a typical development setup.
*you also have to consider time, itself. Tomb Raider's development was likely started before there were ANY DX12 tools and GPU compute was still a little cilantro to sprinkle into DX11. Carmack is a nerd, so I'm sure he made someone lose sleep to get Vulkan into Doom 4. It probably won't be until next year, that just about every game ships with a codepath for a new API.
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Ocellaris
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There are a bunch of 1060s for order on Newegg with "Ships in 1 to 2 days" so that isn't much of a wait for thisewanting an AIB 1060 before 480s are available.
I think what's reasonable to assume is you need to build vendor specific optimizations into your game engine to achieve the best results, after that the particular mix of effects takes over, but I don't think tomb raider is making proper use of gcn hardware titles like hitman/ashes/doom is using. That or the way they structured how things are rendered is just based off dx11, with dx12 lipstick slapped on the pig.
Once again, not what I said. I said that the current mid-range is not enough of a noticeable improvement over previous generations' high ends to be considered a truly appealing upgrade path. You improve on relative performance, but if you're only after relative performance, you upgraded last gen, and the point is moot.
If the RX 480 and GTX 1060 were 10-15% faster at their current price points, the upgrade would be a no-brainer. Unfortunately, I think I'll be waiting another generation to get that improvement.
mvmiller12
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Why should anyone be pissed in the first place? Theoretically they should have known what they were buying when they went in. If the performance was deemed good enough at that time, then it was good enough. In that light, improved efficiencies for AMD under DX12/Vulkan for older cards are bonus.
It definitely would be if you compare it to your 780 and that Dell U2413 monitor. I certainly can't fault you for wanting more performance though!
I've had multiple AMD cards in the past, but all I keep hearing for the last 6 months is AMD will be awesome for games *NEXT YEAR* when DX12 takes over..
AMD's hardware Asynch compute seems to give it an advantage in 3 of the 4 DX12/Vulcan titles currently available (Ashes, Doom, Hitman.. Tomb Raider is a wash).. and it's certainly possible Nvidia's driver compute pre-emption might not work as well, or at all.
but that's only 4 games I could buy today if I wanted too... not one of the 70 games in my Steam Library supports dx12.. I buy 1-2 new releases per year..
seems like at least another year before DX12 is going to make big inroads to mainstram gaming.
Edit: wikipedia DX12 gaming list (here) lists a couple more indie games with DX12 support apparently.. 4 or 5 games with broken/beta DX12 support, and then a list of about 11-12 upcoming games with DX12 support.. several of which are UWP Microsoft games though..
Not true. There are 12 - DX12 games coming in the latter half of 2016 alone...some big AAA games out of that.
It's a problem, of the major middleware 3d engines, which has excellent performance on amd hardware? Unity is kind of lower end so who cares.
But UE4? That seems to favor nvidia, cryengine? Not sure on the last. The engines that work best with amd so far are glacier 2... (who other than the hitman dev uses that?)
nitrous (ashes, who other than they use that?)
and id tech 6 (who other than id tech uses that?) Maybe their publisher Bethesda could build an elder scrolls 6 game off that engine, but for now they seem content to stick with dx (f*cking 9) for skyrim with nothing new in sight other than a milking/remake of the same game with updated visuals in glorious dx9...
Actually, just looked up mankind divided for deus ex, it's using the dawn engine which looks to be based off the glacier 2 engine used in hitman, so we should see solid results for amd in that title.
But EVERY other game uses that shill engine UE 4, who expects them to build in robust support for the kinds of performance boosts gcn can attain? Anyone expecting shader intrinsic support?
it has nothing to do with drivers. Its the support for dx11. The architecture itself doesn't get fully utilized until dx12 kicks in. Drivers can only do so much when API itself won't take advantage of the hardware itself.
Lorien
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The PS4 Neo wins err, I mean RX 480 .
.
D
Deleted whining member 223597
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See, that part wasn't there before and was why none of us understood what you were saying. It makes more sense now. This gen is impressive, but mostly on the performance/watt not on straight performance over last gen.
None that were designed around DX12. Only DX11 games with random DX12 features tacked on as afterthought and then called "DX12" in the marketing. It'll be years before we see DX12-only games, least from any non-Microsoft studios.
...but it does benefit all gamers! Unlike GameWorks or some other black box tricks Vulkan is open source and ALL hardware can use it. Already seen gains from all boards switching to it, but just so happens that AMD have the 'better' hardware to take advantage of it right now.
get one here if you want. at 249.99. This is the same one i got from bestbuy this morning. Lifetime warranty with registration to original buyer and looks clean as hell.
GeForce GTX 1060 6GB
GeForce GTX 1060 6GB