New York Will Offer $2,000 If You Buy an Electric Car

[Megalith]

New York state will “finally” launch a rebate that will make electric vehicles more price competitive with traditional cars and boost its effort toward reducing automotive carbon emissions. This is great news for anyone who is already looking to buy an EV, but I am not sure how persuasive rebates really are for everyone else. I mean, $2K is a nice chunk of change, but it isn’t going to make your EV go any farther.

New York State, headed by Democrat Andrew Cuomo announced a new up to $2,000 rebate program for all-electric and plug-in hybrid vehicle buyers. That means the Model 3 New Yorkers reserved just got significantly cheaper. The rebate will help make EVs more cost competitive with gas-powered cars at purchase (they are often already much cheaper to own when accounting for gas savings) and will go into effect on April 1. “We want to make electric vehicles a mainstream option,” said state Assemblywoman Amy Paulin, a Westchester County Democrat who leads the Assembly energy committee. “They are becoming more affordable and we need to encourage them.”

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

Yeah, it isn't likely to convince anyone with range anxiety, but if you have had interest in buying an electric car for a long time, and just haven't been able to make the finances work, I'm sure an extra $2000 can be persuasive.

I'm sure this will have an impact on adoption rates.

 

[EODetroit]

Tesla is the only manufacturer truly addressing range anxiety, with its supercharging stations. Every other car manufacturer (mostly traditional makers dabbling in EVs) are using range anxiety as a selling point for their traditional vehicles, and not coming up with a charging infrastructure of their own. This is why the Bolt for example won't be competitive with the Tesla Model 3 later this year, even if they nominally have a similar range on one charge.

 

[HockeyJon]

Nothing quite as satisfying as subsidizing a rich person buying a $130,000 Tesla Model S.

 

[ND40oz]

Yawn, Colorado already gives you $5k right off the top, no need to wait for a tax credit.

 

[Twisted Kidney]

People would be all over electric cars with no extra help whatsoever if the range and recharge times were more acceptable.

 

[sirmonkey1985]

all comes down the buyer, if you live in NYC but don't really leave the city that much then they're amazing. the model 3 looks good but still way out of my price range sadly and the nissan leaf isn't bad if you live in a big city.. my parents bought the 2016 leaf and they've enjoyed it for work and local driving. they use their older prius for things out of range of the leaf.

but 2 grand seams cheap compared to the incentives California and a few other states have.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

Tesla is the only manufacturer truly addressing range anxiety, with its supercharging stations. Every other car manufacturer (mostly traditional makers dabbling in EVs) are using range anxiety as a selling point for their traditional vehicles, and not coming up with a charging infrastructure of their own. This is why the Bolt for example won't be competitive with the Tesla Model 3 later this year, even if they nominally have a similar range on one charge.

True.

Personally range anxiety simply is not an issue for me. I drive 25 miles each way to work, which is considered a long commute around here.

If I were to drive to my parents house, they are about 100 miles away. I could probably make it there and back on a single full charge, but as a "just in case" measure, I could trickle charge at 110v while visiting.

I could go years without ever needing to drive further than a Tesla charge could take me.

The real reason I haven't bought a Tesla yet is as follows:

• The Model S is too damned expensive
• I live in Massachusetts where our total electricity costs (generation + transmission + fees) are some of the highest in the nation.

The published rates are split up between supply and delivery, and in the summer, the first 600KwH are charged at a lower rate than anything above 600KwH, but in the winter they are the same. Winter rates are higher than summer rates due to Natural Gas shortages in the winter. All of this makes it terribly confusing, so to just sum it up, here is my redacted bill from last month:

$161.98 for 796KwH, or ¢20.35 per kWH

In other words, it costs me just as much to drive a car on electricity as it would on gas. Without the gas savings, the financial model for an electric car blows up, and becomes infeasible.


See, in Massachusetts we did the right thing over the last 30 years. We either shut down or converted all of our coal plants to natural gas electric plants. This is a great idea. Natural gas is both cleaner and cheaper than coal.

The idiots in our state legislature - however - failed to realize that we would need greater natural gas capacity with all these new natural gas plants, so it resulted in a gas shortage in the winter when everyone needs natural gas to heat their homes, so to try to tamp down on electric use during the winter, we have an alternate higher electric rate during the winter. (Mind you, our summer rates are already high, and our winter rates are astronomical)

When they (too late) realized their mistake and tried to rectify it by adding more gas pipelines into the state, the short sighted hippy fucks and "concerned citizen" NIMBY groups had a collective freakout and went all "Dakota Access Pipeline" protest on that shit meaning construction has been tied up while people are hemorrhaging cash on our electric and heating bills.

The irony is that while the rest of the country is going through a natural gas boom, and historic low rates, we have some historically high rates due to his blunder and the protesting numbskulls. That, and the fact that they are in many cases protesting against a natural gas pipeline that is helping bring comparatively clean energy into the state. High gas rates mean that fewer people are converting their homes heating from old dirty home heating oil burners to cleaner gas or electric heat pumps, and people can't afford to drive cleaner electric cars.

Their refusal to accept gas pipelines - in other words - is resulting in more emissions, not less.

Sometimes I just want to kill people. You can't fix stupid.

 

[sfsuphysics]

I see that and go wow 20.35 c per kWh, man you got cheap rates! (As said from a Californian)

 

[Ducman69]

I hope they put a reasonable income cap on it.

I don't need to be subsidizing Donald Trump with my tax dollars to buy a few electric vehicles for guests for kicks, and it will ultimately only get a few hundred miles a year on it to boot, making absolutely no difference to the environment.

Mandating electric/hbrid cabs and buses in the major cities, putting certain streets off-limits or with very hefty toll during extreme rush hour except to public transit and emergency vehicles and perhaps two wheeled vehicles like scooters, would help far more.

 

[Ducman69]

$161.98 for 796KwH, or ¢20.35 per kWH

Deregulation of the electrical grid, while promoting competition through its "power to choose" program, means in Texas you're paying 7-8 cents a kwh on average in a 1-2 year contract.

 

[BababooeyHTJ]

Nothing quite as satisfying as subsidizing a rich person buying a $130,000 Tesla Model S.

Yeah, that one really gets me. Tesla wouldn't be around without government subsidies. You won't see anyone not very well off driving one of their vehicles....

 

[Nytegard]

NY doesn't worry. The Port Authority will just raise their tolls from $15 to $25. Get that $2000 rebate back really quick.

 

[sfsuphysics]

Yeah, that one really gets me. Tesla wouldn't be around without government subsidies. You won't see anyone not very well off driving one of their vehicles....

hahahahahaha... that's funny.

You acknowledge that rich people are the ones who buy Teslas at over 100k a pop, and you really think someone who's going to throw down $100k on a car gives a fuck about a $2k price break? Or hell 10k? I mean sure it's nice but something tells me that's not what is going to end up being what eventually makes the sale. It's like other hybrid cars where you're talking a car that is in the $25-30k range, so a tax break can make them appealing vs. non-hybrid equivalents.

 

[Krab]

Yeah, that one really gets me. Tesla wouldn't be around without government subsidies. You won't see anyone not very well off driving one of their vehicles....

That's a pretty wild claim right there. These tax breaks don't mean a damn thing to the average Tesla owner. They are just icing on the cake.


This is supposed to be targeted at lower end EVs. If lawmakers really cared they would put a price cap on these incentives. Say the vehicle can sell for no more than $50-60K. That would exclude very high end EVs that well-off people can afford either way.

 

[krotch]

Yeah, that one really gets me. Tesla wouldn't be around without government subsidies. You won't see anyone not very well off driving one of their vehicles....

Nah, they'd still be around. They'd just be moving slower. Probably wouldn't have a Model X out or have a Model 3 in the works. The government subsidies isn't keeping them floating, it's just letting them move quicker. Now if the investors stopped giving them money, that's a different story.

 

[nightfly]

Charge times will always be a stumbling block. Like flashlight batteries, someone will have to step in and make a standardized size large battery pack that can be slid into a spot in the electric cars, essentially the way we get gasoline put into the tank now. Perhaps larger electric vehicles can have multiple battery 'slot' connections which simply use multiples of the standard size. But all cars will have to use a standardized battery, much the same as the batteries that we use to start petrol cars have been pretty much standardized into sizes and connections. But this would have to go one step further. Until then, the electrics will always have an energy 'fill up' problem.

And with the current administration giving preference to privatization, standardization will never happen, as the car makers (like inkjet printer makers who make most of their money from the ink) will drag their feet at using a standardized battery of any kind, because it will cut into future profits gotten by replacing those batteries.

It's simple. decide where to put the batteries, what shape and connectors to use (some type of slide in to contact type which will automatically engage with the car's connectors, basically a bigger version of what tool makers designed for their battery packs which slide into their tools and click to lock into place). This isn't rocket science. This would enable even current gas stations to become electric stations, having batteries already charged to replace run down ones. You would pay based on how much charge is left in the battery you're replacing vs the charge in the 'new' battery. Sure, the batteries might be heavy, but like floor jacks, it would be simple enough to change the top of the jack to a part which fits into the bottom of the battery to slide it into the car, then release when it's clicked into place. Safety? Use a similar 'trap door' like there used to be on the top of VHS tapes to keep the electrical contacts covered when the batteries are not in the car of a charger.

Of course, the oil companies will hate this, unless THEY are the ones to make this standardized battery system. Well, Exxon, Shell, Sun, etc., why not? Electricity is the coming thing. Get to work and start designing this system. If you don't, someone else will.

 

[jevans64]

Also factor in having to replace a $10,000 battery pack in 8 years.

 

[ND40oz]

No one is going to be swapping batteries, they're too large and heavy. The Model S's battery weighs 1200 pounds. It would be like swapping fuel tanks instead of filling them up, except the fuel tank would have to hold ~180 gallons of fuel to match the weight. Tesla even tried to make their battery pack easy to swap and gave up on the idea of doing it at Supercharger stations. Until actual fast charging can take place safely where you can get 400+ miles of charge in less then 10 minutes, electric cars are always going to have the stigma of range anxiety.

 

[blade12]

Deregulation of the electrical grid, while promoting competition through its "power to choose" program, means in Texas you're paying 7-8 cents a kwh on average in a 1-2 year contract.

How much of those savings comes from coal and oil down in Texas? We know coal/oil are cheap compared to other cleaner sources. Coal is slightly cheaper than natural gas as well (+you already have the infrastructure for coal so they won't switch to natural gas in many areas anytime soon where the focus is on savings than cleaner sources).

 

[MavericK]

No one drives in NYC...there's too much traffic.

 

[lcpiper]

People would be all over electric cars with no extra help whatsoever if the range and recharge times were more acceptable.

All the more reason I am against these kinds of "incentives".

Like you say, people wouldn't have a problem with electric cars if electric cars didn't have a problem first.

People will switch to what makes sense when it makes sense to do so. The government is wrong using tax money this way. All the government is doing is trying to force a change before it's time to do so.

 

[blade12]

People would be all over electric cars with no extra help whatsoever if the range and recharge times were more acceptable.

For everyday car, electric cars are fine. How often does anyone drive 300 miles to and from work? I dunno anyone with their job 3hrs of driving distance away.. Latest model S extended it to 335 miles just recently. They are trying to get that up to 400 miles, and I expect them to.. I think the average range for gas cars is 400-450 miles.. Getting very close.

Also, Tesla superchargers charge batteries to 50% in 20 minutes.. Pretty fast. They are still trying to improve it further.

 

[Twisted Kidney]

For everyday car, electric cars are fine. How often does anyone drive 300 miles to and from work? I dunno anyone with their job 3hrs of driving distance away.. Latest model S extended it to 335 miles just recently. They are trying to get that up to 400 miles, and I expect them to.. I think the average range for gas cars is 400-450 miles.. Getting very close.

Also, Tesla superchargers charge batteries to 50% in 20 minutes.. Pretty fast. They are still trying to improve it further.

Really, because 20 minutes is a lot longer than the minute, or possibly two that it takes to fuel a car all the way up to the very top. Plus you'll be doing a lot of stopping for half a charge if you need to cover some mileage. For real market dominance Electric cars are going to need to go farther than a convention infernal combustion engine and charge in less than ten minutes.

You're talking about over an hour to top the tank up and get back on the road. These aren't competitive with traditional automobiles, period. Not by even the wildest stretch of the imagination. Right now you'd still need a fossil cooker if you actually want to do a bit of travelling, needing two cars to do the job of one is actually a considerable turn off to almost all consumers.

I'd bet that within ten years these cars are going farther than conventional cars, a lot farther. Right now it's not even a competition.

 

[RAutrey]

And then New York will raise your taxes if the incentive puts too much a dent in gas tax revenue...

 

[scojer]

If I was a dealer I'd off to take $2,000 off normal cars.

 

[blade12]

Really, because 20 minutes is a lot longer than the minute, or possibly two that it takes to fuel a car all the way up to the very top. Plus you'll be doing a lot of stopping for half a charge if you need to cover some mileage. For real market dominance Electric cars are going to need to go farther than a convention infernal combustion engine and charge in less than ten minutes.

You're talking about over an hour to top the tank up and get back on the road. These aren't competitive with traditional automobiles, period. Not by even the wildest stretch of the imagination. Right now you'd still need a fossil cooker if you actually want to do a bit of travelling, needing two cars to do the job of one is actually a considerable turn off to almost all consumers.

I'd bet that within ten years these cars are going farther than conventional cars, a lot farther. Right now it's not even a competition.

Unless if you are driving more than 300 miles in a single day, you will be fine. Most commute maybe 2 hours of driving max so this would work fine as the everyday car. You can charge every couple nights, and you are good. For emergency, you can pull into a recharge station for 10 mins and get 55-65 mile extension.

BTW - Considering the average gas car can travel about 400-450 miles on single refuel, do you refuel your car every day? or even every other day? How often do you run out of gas on a single gas tank? Maybe once a week? Your argument goes out the window because you don't even refuel every few days - why would electric be any different?

The 2 exceptions are:
1) You drive on a vacation or on work to a distant state on a regular basis.
2) You are a traveling salesman or transportation company/Uber.

In these 2 situations, a gas car will definitely serve you much better. Most people don't fall under those 2 exceptions though. I don't know any everyday person who travels 4+ hours a day to and from work (8hrs of travel a day lol) so in that case, an electric car will serve you fine.

 

[krotch]

The 2 exceptions are:
1) You drive on a vacation or on work to a distant state on a regular basis.
2) You are a traveling salesman or transportation company/Uber.

In these 2 situations, a gas car will definitely serve you much better. Most people don't fall under those 2 exceptions though. I don't know any everyday person who travels 4+ hours a day to and from work (8hrs of travel a day lol) so in that case, an electric car will serve you fine.

There are way more exceptions, you're probably just not thinking about them. My brother-in-law is a repairman for products his company sells to small businesses. Like he repairs store dishwashers, laundry machines, soap dispensers, hand air blowers, etc. He can easily put down 400-500 miles a day.

 

[lcpiper]

For everyday car, electric cars are fine. How often does anyone drive 300 miles to and from work? I dunno anyone with their job 3hrs of driving distance away.. Latest model S extended it to 335 miles just recently. They are trying to get that up to 400 miles, and I expect them to.. I think the average range for gas cars is 400-450 miles.. Getting very close.

Also, Tesla superchargers charge batteries to 50% in 20 minutes.. Pretty fast. They are still trying to improve it further.

I suppose I see it differently. I don't give a damn if they want to knock a couple K off the price tag, I'm wouldn't even consider buying a gimped car. In fact, I don't understand why anyone would talk themselves into thinking this is a good choice for a vehicle. I am not about to even remotely consider spending several tens of thousands on a vehicle knowing it's has such a severe limitation.

I can see it now, I'm going to drive off somewhere on a trip. I meticulously plan my route noting which charging stations I'll need in advance. There are a couple of places where, because of my destination, they are my only option. Sure enough, when I reach one of these stations, they damn thing is either closed or out of service and I am fucked. No one is just going to let me charge my freaking car off their home or business, I'm in the middle of bum-fuck nowhere and at best case I have to sit for hours upon hours trying to get my car charged up.

And I have some money, but I don't have the money to buy special vehicles just for commuter usage, the cost and upkeep of a second vehicle completely erases any perceived savings.

But that's me, I live in Arizona, Tucson is 160 miles round trip, but Phoenix is much farther and the rest of my family is in Texas and that's an 11 hour drive usually twice a year. No fucking way are these cars ready for me.

 

[Ducman69]

How much of those savings comes from coal and oil down in Texas? We know coal/oil are cheap compared to other cleaner sources. Coal is slightly cheaper than natural gas as well (+you already have the infrastructure for coal so they won't switch to natural gas in many areas anytime soon where the focus is on savings than cleaner sources).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/power-plants/

Texas ranks about middle of the pack, with a well diversified electrical grid.

The only exceptions are that we use no oil (dead last actually, Mr Guy), and virtually no hydro... cuz, well, we're flat, and hydro works best with elevation changes.

 

[jevans64]

If I get a strictly commuter car, it will be an Elio. I doubt they'll be able to get the claimed 80 MPG highway but if they can get close to 70 MPG and keep that price at $7300, it would make more sense than an electric.

I'm All In for $1000, so I either lost the money or will get a $1500 discount on a car when they make them.

 

[tungt88]

No one drives in NYC...there's too much traffic.

Depends on what borough of NYC

Manhattan? Yeah, excellent mass transit + plentiful sidewalks ensure that trains/walking are actually viable.
Queens? Central/Eastern sections, cars will save you a LOT of time.
Bronx? See Manhattan (on a lesser scale).
Brooklyn? South/Eastern Brooklyn, cars are not strictly necessary, but are very useful (bit hard to find parking, though).
Staten Island? What are you doing there without a car?

 

[DoubleTap]

If you bothered to read the fine print you would see that the $2000 is paid out in the form of a 50 year subscription to the New York Times.

 

[blade12]

There are way more exceptions, you're probably just not thinking about them. My brother-in-law is a repairman for products his company sells to small businesses. Like he repairs store dishwashers, laundry machines, soap dispensers, hand air blowers, etc. He can easily put down 400-500 miles a day.

That would fit alongside traveling salesman/transportation exception. Jobs where you have to drive around all day. Homecare nurses, certain types of specialists, etc. Most people work in offices so you can't say "Because a tiny fraction of working population travels at work, electric cars are no good unless they can fully recharge in under 10mins"... The logic doesn't go from A -> B unless if you admit to x, which is that logic doesn't apply to 90% of working folks. If you do admit x, then that entire argument unravels.

 

[blade12]

I can see it now , I'm going to drive off somewhere on a trip. I meticulously plan my route noting which charging stations I'll need in advance. There are a couple of places where, because of my destination, they are my only option. Sure enough, when I reach one of these stations, they damn thing is either closed or out of service and I am fucked. No one is just going to let me charge my freaking car off their home or business, I'm in the middle of bum-fuck nowhere and at best case I have to sit for hours upon hours trying to get my car charged up.

That is a valid concern. I don't own a Tesla, but I know there are multiple rechargers at each recharge stations, and each recharger is its own separate system. Tesla says each of them have 99% uptime (probably some business numbers but knowing Tesla's reputation, I'm sure they use high quality components), and they have great customer service with fast tech support to fix it if it breaks. According to this, Tesla has emergency flat bed trucks to take you to next supercharger station along the road if need be as last resort.

You are talking about all recharge stations breaking all at once, then tech support not showing up to that 1 station, then backup generators break, and flatbed trucks failing or not showing up to take you to a nearby station along the way. Think about the mathematical probability of all that going down at the one station you are at. You are going way beyond extremity to make your point..

But that's me, I live in Arizona, Tucson is 160 miles round trip, but Phoenix is much farther and the rest of my family is in Texas and that's an 11 hour drive usually twice a year. No fucking way are these cars ready for me.

Yeah, if you travel often that far distances, you have to stick to gas cars for now unless if Tesla is able to either a) get you up to half charge in reasonable 10mins or b) extend range even further to maybe 450 miles or c) figure out a way to quick switch batteries at a recharge station in 10mins.

Right now, you would be able to drive 6hrs straight (at assuming 50mph average) on full charge. After that, you would have to stop every 3hrs for 20 mins for half charge. Currently, at best you can drive 9hrs (at 50mph average) total with a single 20min stop. That's a very good start for a new industry that released it's first car in 2008 (first Tesla had 200mile range and 0 supercharger stations).

I think c is what Tesla and other electric car companies should try hard to get. That could change everything literally over night.

 

[krotch]

That would fit alongside traveling salesman/transportation exception. Jobs where you have to drive around all day. Homecare nurses, certain types of specialists, etc. Most people work in offices so you can't say "Because a tiny fraction of working population travels at work, electric cars are no good unless they can fully recharge in under 10mins"... The logic doesn't go from A -> B unless if you admit to x, which is that logic doesn't apply to 90% of working folks. If you do admit x, then that entire argument unravels.

I didn't say electric cars are no good. It'd be like saying,"Some people drive large pickups to haul things, regular cars are no good." That'd just be a stupid statement.

There are different use case scenarios. I simply was mentioning that there could be other scenarios you aren't thinking of that someone might not be able to use an electric car. You said 2 exceptions. I stated another that doesn't fall under "salesman" or "transportation company/uber" category. I'm sure there are other exceptions that I'm not thinking of either. All of it combined, would probably be a small percentile of the US population.

I know for me, an electric would work for going to work and back, but not for my personal time. So buying an expensive car, paying insurance on it, paying for parking, paying for registration, and whatever upkeep it requires makes no sense. Not to mention, my parking garage has no electric outlets. Also, production electric cars suck as mountain carving at high speeds.