New PhysX PCIe Cards?

OrangeFire

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Anybody know when these are supposed to come out? I'm outta PCI slots, and I need a PCIe version.
 

kirbyrj

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I wonder if there will be a price difference between PCIe and PCI versions of the card.
 

nhusby

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kirbyrj said:
I wonder if there will be a price difference between PCIe and PCI versions of the card.

Thats probubly why the pci version is dropping in price...
 

Xilikon

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kirbyrj said:
I thought it was because no one was buying them :D.

I think the same and that is probably why they changed the EULA as well...
 

Ockie

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I'm assuming that the pcie is going to come at a higher price.


Too bad ageia is releasing them so late, they are far too late in the game.
 

OrangeFire

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How are they too late in the game? They released the very first PPU. Are there any others out there?

I just don't see how anyone can be too late if they are the first.
 

Jasonx82

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OrangeFire said:
How are they too late in the game? They released the very first PPU. Are there any others out there?

I just don't see how anyone can be too late if they are the first.

The hype has died down? I would have certainly bought one if there was a pcie version @ launch. But I dont know anoymore :eek:
 

OrangeFire

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From what I have read, there is not a performance difference between the PCI and the PCIe versions. Other than the bus that the device occupies, what would be the real difference. If it fits, it fits, right?
 

ChrisMorley

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It's good for them to have a PCI-E variant for no other reason than they are competing for PCI slot space with Creative Labs, and most of the time, Creative wins.
 

kirbyrj

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ChrisMorley said:
It's good for them to have a PCI-E variant for no other reason than they are competing for PCI slot space with Creative Labs, and most of the time, Creative wins.

And Creative said no X-fi on PCIe (a while back anyway). Guess we have to wait for their next audio processor to see a move to PCIe.
 

Ockie

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OrangeFire said:
How are they too late in the game? They released the very first PPU. Are there any others out there?

I just don't see how anyone can be too late if they are the first.

Nvidia and ATI is beating them to the race of pcie cards, they did nothing to work around the sli and crossfire rigs, they didn't care to work with those individuals who has limited space... now ATI and Nvidia is about to release their own technologies and thats going to leave them with no room physically or marketably. No one is going to buy an Ageia if Nvidia and ATI can pull off a just as an effective or even better unit than PhysX... especially if that unit works better with the video cards.

So in that reason they are too late, they should have pushed hard earlier with pcie and they should have pushed hard with development... they are letting the ball roll while other companies are playing catchup. Kinda reminds me of the Turtle/Rabit race. I had cash in my hand waiting to pickup the ageia PPU, I waited and waited, finally when it came out... it was PCI! So we kept waiting... now Nvidia announced their own to work in conjunction with their sli cards... guess which way I'm going to toss my money now?


ChrisMorley said:
It's good for them to have a PCI-E variant for no other reason than they are competing for PCI slot space with Creative Labs, and most of the time, Creative wins.


Not necessarlily creative, some people would just like the next generation of technology and would like a piece of hardware that can grow old with the machine. It's quite odd to spend $300 on a device that uses the last decades technology but yet boasts new world performance and advancements :)

There are many things that they are cometing with thats limiting pci slots, including new boards being manufactured thats leaving no room for them.
 

HOCP4ME

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I agree that they would have a much better chance of survival if they had released (or did release) a PCI-E PPU already.

Honestly, I don't understand why they waited and are still waiting to do this. Didn't they realize that many people wouldn't be able to fit an extra PCI card in their computer? Is is that much more expensive for them to make it PCI-E?

Or, better yet, I don't understand why mobo makers won't just go back to PCI and still make at least half of the expansion slots on their boards PCI-E. PCI-E has failed. It shows no useable performance benefit over PCI in anything except HDD cards and has vitually zero hardware support even after being in the market for years. Mobo makers should get over it and go back to PCI.

EDIT-Before people try to apply that reasoning to the PPU, let me distinguish the two. PCI-E shows no performance benefit with most types of hardware, even when used correctly. A PPU, however, will show a great performance benefit in most type of games when used correctly.
 

Chernobyl1

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Thats sure gonna piss off the early Physx adopters if the PCI-E part is more powerful and/or does communicate better.
 

Sloth

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Chernobyl1 said:
Thats sure gonna piss off the early Physx adopters if the PCI-E part is more powerful and/or does communicate better.


Well thats what happens. Every computer enthusiast knows something bigger and better comes out every couple of months.


PhysX really needs a killer app for it to take off.
 

theelectic

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PCIe has higher latency, making it unsuitable for sound cards (right now anyway) which is why you don't see the latest X-Fi in a PCIe version.

Also with PhysX IIRC the current version of the PPU can only use/address 128MB, making any more RAM useless (why ASUS quickly scrapped the 256MB PhysX, though there are a few out there). PhysX is not even using the full PCI bus but in term of things being future proof, it would be useful to have it on PCIe.

As long as the mobos I use have two PCI slots I'm golden, one for my X-Fi, the other for my PhysX card.
 

vidor

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HOCP4ME said:
Or, better yet, I don't understand why mobo makers won't just go back to PCI and still make at least half of the expansion slots on their boards PCI-E. PCI-E has failed. It shows no useable performance benefit over PCI in anything except HDD cards and has vitually zero hardware support even after being in the market for years. Mobo makers should get over it and go back to PCI.

QFT -- that, or figure out a way to make PCI-e not suck.
 

Chernobyl1

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I'm all for that, a lower latency PCI-E :)
In theory, a higher clock speed will up bandwidth and reduce latency.
Hopefully at least that will happen.
 

Pyromaneyakk

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theelectic said:
PCIe has higher latency, making it unsuitable for sound cards (right now anyway) which is why you don't see the latest X-Fi in a PCIe version.
I doubt latency is that bad. PCI has latency, being that it's a shared bus (if another device is using the bus, the sound card has to wait). Thats what buffers are for. Keep a small cache of data for the fraction of a microsecond it takes to send the packet (as if one microsecond is going to make a difference. Creative probably just isn't making a PCI-E X-Fi because they effectively have a monopoly on the market and if they don't have to, they won't spend the money on it.

HOCP4ME said:
Or, better yet, I don't understand why mobo makers won't just go back to PCI and still make at least half of the expansion slots on their boards PCI-E. PCI-E has failed. It shows no useable performance benefit over PCI in anything except HDD cards and has vitually zero hardware support even after being in the market for years. Mobo makers should get over it and go back to PCI.
Use a high-performance RAID controller, gigabit PCI network adapter, and/or other high bandwidth devices and there is a clear difference. With old-school PCI, you're sharing about 150MB of bandwidth, half duplex, between ALL PCI devices in the machine. If you're transferring a file from your big mean RAID array over the network, then you get 75MB/s from RAID to RAM and 75MB/s from RAM to Net (gigabit network is 125MB/s full duplex, so 250MB/s total, which PCI is not even close to capable of).

PCI-E does not share busses, but rather has an individual port for each device. So if your PC has 4 PCI-E x1 slots, then there's 4x 250MB/s, which is a total of 1000MB/s (comparable to PCI-X 64-bit/133MHz server ports). You could stream data from your RAID array to your GigE card at full speed using PCI-E ports.

I'm not certain how much bandwidth a PhysX card uses. I doubt a PhysX card and a X-Fi would use all the bandwidth on the PCI bus, but I'd bet if you add some other bandwidth-intensive card into the mix you will have some serious issues.
 

kent

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Sloth said:
Well thats what happens. Every computer enthusiast knows something bigger and better comes out every couple of months.


PhysX really needs a killer app for it to take off.

Rumor has it the killer app is accelerating BitTorrent connections that run on your KillerNIC
 

Gilhooley

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Pyromaneyakk said:
Use a high-performance RAID controller, gigabit PCI network adapter, and/or other high bandwidth devices and there is a clear difference. With old-school PCI, you're sharing about 150MB of bandwidth, half duplex, between ALL PCI devices in the machine. If you're transferring a file from your big mean RAID array over the network, then you get 75MB/s from RAID to RAM and 75MB/s from RAM to Net (gigabit network is 125MB/s full duplex, so 250MB/s total, which PCI is not even close to capable of).
Yeah, and how many are there? Highpoint and Promise has a few fakeraid pci-e cards and about one real each. I was a real bitch finding a HW card for a server that only had pci-e. As HOCP4ME said, its a failure in practice. PCI-X on the other hand has all the cool demanding cards, so if the market is anything to go by Ageia should make a PCI-X card instead ;)

I needed a good PCI-E HW NIC the other day, wow what a selection :rolleyes: Intel has one and thats about it.. otherwise your stuck with sw agere cards. So, without PCI-E gfx cards - I would also argue that its a flop.
 

Dew

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PCIe is still new. In 5 years you will be lucky to see ONE PCI slot on motherboards.
 

Shingoshi

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OrangeFire said:
From what I have read, there is not a performance difference between the PCI and the PCIe versions. Other than the bus that the device occupies, what would be the real difference. If it fits, it fits, right?

There is one very significant niche that Physx is ignoring. One which by the way neccessitates a PCIe bus. I am speaking specifically of high end computations of mathematical calculations that are not limited to graphics. I don't know what the FLOPS count is for one of these processors, but I am certain that four or more of them on a single card would be phenominal. The existing cards are rather short. A full length PCIe card with four or six of these ppu's would offer an economical option for mathematicians and physicists. The other feature that should be offered, is the ability to run multiple interconnected cards in a single system. Such a system would be a computational powerhouse. But having read the comments from Ageia, they seem to be rather shortsighted. So many of the comments of criticism here are well warranted!! Ageia could sell a supercomputer on a single PCIe card. But I don't see them having the inventiveness to accomplish that. So we all suffer.

I have a dual-socket AMD 2200 series 64-bit server board with two PCIe slots. They are only x8's though. But I am considering getting another (Tyan s2915) board also. And a dual-motherboard chassis (Servercase.com CK[12 or 14]00c) as well. My current Tyan s3992 board would be used for all IO operations. The Tyan s2915 would give me my graphics platform. I could put two Physx PCIe cards on the s2915 in addition to any PCIe graphics cards. I could put another two cards on the s3992 for additional computations. Oh, I should mention that my hobby is mathematics. So yes, I want to see Ageia get their head out of their ass.

Here are a few more points to consider. I've seen some of you mention raid controllers and network adapters. Many of you may not have researched as many topics as I have. And no, I am not boasting. I have had to do alot of research specifically because of the range of applications and interests that I have. So let me expand your thinking.

Imagine for a moment a single card that provides encrypted filesystems over raid. And at the same time provided network encryption over fiberchannel networks. This would be a perfect killer application for multiprocessors of this type. Such a card could also act as a firewall.

We already have cards from HP, Sun and IBM that provide encryption. But they don't combine such functionality with filesystems on raid. Oh yeah, I run Linux. I have now for five years. So I expect more from my computer than most of you, simply because Linux can do more. So I have much higher expectations than most average users. Ageia is missing the future. Encryption is the future. As our world becomes more and more hostile on many fronts, network security will be a matter of life and death. The future is always now. If you as a company fail to plan ahead, you wind up warming it in your ass!
 

Dan_D

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kirbyrj said:
And Creative said no X-fi on PCIe (a while back anyway). Guess we have to wait for their next audio processor to see a move to PCIe.

Its because Creative is ignorant and "uncreative."

Their X-Fi sounded good on paper, but they've been more problematic than previous cards. I really wish that Creative was as diligent with their driver releases as the video card manufacturers, but alas they are not.

A PCIe X-Fi would be a hit amongst the gaming community. How about giving us something we'll actually use instead of BS Fatal1ty crap that's outrageously expensive and packed with features the gamer will never use.
 

defaultluser

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Dan_D said:
Its because Creative is ignorant and "uncreative."

Their X-Fi sounded good on paper, but they've been more problematic than previous cards. I really wish that Creative was as diligent with their driver releases as the video card manufacturers, but alas they are not.

A PCIe X-Fi would be a hit amongst the gaming community. How about giving us something we'll actually use instead of BS Fatal1ty crap that's outrageously expensive and packed with features the gamer will never use.

Agreed. Creative has never designed their own card from scratch - everything they sell is a knockoff, or a purchased competitor's product. In fact, Creative had to purchase Ensoniq just to make their transition from ISA to PCI a smooth one because that HUGE company couldn't figure out legacy support for PCI cards.

I believe they havn't released a PCIe soundcard for two reasons:

1. the add-in soundboard market is dead. It shrinks every year due to the increasing quality of onboard sound. The pros still buy cards, but the Soundblaster line isn't in the same league as pro equipment.

2. Because there's no money in soundcards, I seriously doubt Creative has spent much money on their PCIe dev.
 

Dan_D

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theelectic said:
PCIe has higher latency, making it unsuitable for sound cards (right now anyway) which is why you don't see the latest X-Fi in a PCIe version.

Also with PhysX IIRC the current version of the PPU can only use/address 128MB, making any more RAM useless (why ASUS quickly scrapped the 256MB PhysX, though there are a few out there). PhysX is not even using the full PCI bus but in term of things being future proof, it would be useful to have it on PCIe.

As long as the mobos I use have two PCI slots I'm golden, one for my X-Fi, the other for my PhysX card.

That's easy enough to do, unless you want SLI support.
 

.9mmSpliff

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happy with my card. i love the PhysX. I wouldnt have room for anything other then PCI. But I would do the PCIE if I had the room and I was looking for a PhysX card.
 
Z

Zinn

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happy with my card. i love the PhysX. I wouldnt have room for anything other then PCI. But I would do the PCIE if I had the room and I was looking for a PhysX card.
Good to know. I'm considering picking one of these PCIe cards up when the prices go down a little bit. For Ageia to really appeal to me, the price needs to be sub $150 and some blockbuster PhysX games need to come out.
 

.9mmSpliff

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Good to know. I'm considering picking one of these PCIe cards up when the prices go down a little bit. For Ageia to really appeal to me, the price needs to be sub $150 and some blockbuster PhysX games need to come out.
Cell Factor and Unreal 3 engine based games. Vanguard and over 65 titles out in the next 1.5 yrs. Now it depends on how the developers utilizes the PhysX. Just like how they would for Havok. I personally think ATI and nVidia will do good, just not what Ageia can do.
 
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That what I was waiting for. Was the PCIE vers before I grab one, I like the idea of having its own card. I not going SLI nor CF so I see this as a better option for me.

I like wat I saw with the ppu cards, I sure it will get better as games start to use it better, I dont really care what most of the nay sayers say. They can just not buy the card and go with ATI and Nvidia option.

I sure not about to buy a 8800gtx just for that alone,Bills is more important then 500 dollar video cards.

So I see the ppu card as a cheaper option, I feel it work best for those who do not want to shell out 500 on a 8800 or want ot do ati or nvidia idea. People needs to realize that not every one is like them with fast cars, Big houses so forth.

It might be a while when they come out who knows. I have a couple of games that supports it,I play all of them. When UT2k7 comes out and if its supports it.I will use it with UT2k7 also.


Even if ati and nvidia way might a tad better, I would in up spending more going there route then going to a 250 dollar ppu card. I an do the 250 ppu card But i not doing the ati/nvidia way and spend way more then 250 and cant pay the bills.
 

Dan_D

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That what I was waiting for. Was the PCIE vers before I grab one, I like the idea of having its own card. I not going SLI nor CF so I see this as a better option for me.

I like wat I saw with the ppu cards, I sure it will get better as games start to use it better, I dont really care what most of the nay sayers say. They can just not buy the card and go with ATI and Nvidia option.

I sure not about to buy a 8800gtx just for that alone,Bills is more important then 500 dollar video cards.

So I see the ppu card as a cheaper option, I feel it work best for those who do not want to shell out 500 on a 8800 or want ot do ati or nvidia idea. People needs to realize that not every one is like them with fast cars, Big houses so forth.

It might be a while when they come out who knows. I have a couple of games that supports it,I play all of them. When UT2k7 comes out and if its supports it.I will use it with UT2k7 also.


Even if ati and nvidia way might a tad better, I would in up spending more going there route then going to a 250 dollar ppu card. I an do the 250 ppu card But i not doing the ati/nvidia way and spend way more then 250 and cant pay the bills.

How long does it take you to get $250? Whatever the time frame is, why not take twice as long, and go for a $500 video card instead and have a better option if it turns out to be better?
 
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Because I not gonna buy a 500 dollar video card, I have a limit on how much I will spend on certain hardware. I will not buy a video card just because it has havocX on it.Even if I had 500 which I do, but That goes towards the bills. If I didnt have to pay bills. I still wouldnt pay 500 for any thing.

I see the PPU card as a cheaper option for me, My limit on video cards are 250 for the max. I not gonna put off rent money for a 8800GTX. It isnt worth it.

I see no reason for me to buy a 8800gtx just for one thing. The ppu card would be easier for me get and more comable getting. I cant see my self spending 500 on any thing computer related.
Even if it might be better, I seeing the ppu card with more games supported then the HavocX I dont care how much better it is. It isnt gonna get me to spend 500 dollars on a video card just because HavocX might be a tad better. I would slapped my self if I did that.

It wouldnt be better in the long run, because then I would just be buying the 8800gtx just because of havocX instead of the need for it, I dont have any need for the 8800gtx. and the ppu card would fit my need without me going broke with no lights and gas.
 

Hvatum

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Thats sure gonna piss off the early Physx adopters if the PCI-E part is more powerful and/or does communicate better.

Shit, I would be really pissed if that happens. That's a really prick move if Ageia does, that: Comming out with better hardware in the future, making their previous hardware out of date. Really sticks it to their earlier customers. When I buy things I expect them to stay top of the line forever, this constant improvement of computer hardware really sucks for the modern consumer.**

**Sarcasm! :)
 

SuperGee

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Well I bought PPU's Because PPU is the first Hardware solutions and there are games out and a lot more to come.
So for 6 or more games out now and 120+ to come. You need a PPU for them to play them with all features set high. speciflicly for the Physics setting.
Ultimately Havok FX with GPU's will catch up with a decent number of games out. That will take a while. And then next to a PPU.
I need a G-card just for Physics.

HavokFX will get the same problems as PhysX.. That dev's are more likely use it for EffectPhysics.
So I wonder wenn something simmilar like CF:R a gameplay Physics game comes out in the HAvok FX camp. Maybe next year?

Not something you slap on a game as a after thought. It changes the whole game and effect's other parts off the game to.
 

Ockie

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So CES is here and still no sign of the elusive PCI-e PPU :(
 
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