New Drivers Give NVIDIA Considerable Performance Boost. Links inside.

[ZenOps]

I would not doubt Nvidia figured out a way to speed up the drivers. Nvidia is good that way in that they speed up drivers at existing visual levels.

What noone seems to want to mention is that the 6800 Nvidia driver set is a little buggy, where ATi's (since the new chip is pretty well just a doubled version of the old chip) has been WHQL rock solid for a couple years now. You could also say that ATi has not as much room to improve performance, since it is such a solid platform.

ATi tends not to speed up drivers, but try enable new features and visual quality options at the same peformance level. Temporal AA and the unpopular hardware accelerated truform, are perfect examples.

Honestly, I think stability *gasp* is becoming of even greater importance than speed or visual quality. What good is a videocard if it crashes half an hour into a game (Also: what good is a prescott if it crashes halfway through a 8-hour Divx encode)? I mean there were tons of intial complaints of people with Radeon 9700pros (revision 1 chips) because it was getting too hot and crashing on peoples 300 watt systems... I can only imagine the initial complaint/problems that spawn from the 6800 and regular users.

 

[creedAMD]

For crying out loud. I think it's a pretty damned safe assumption to state that the 6800 is more future-proof than the X800...Pixel Shader 3.0, HDR, hardware video decoding/encoding, full 32 bit precision...there are all very real features that the X800 does not have...so maybe the 6800 isn't perfectly future proof, but it for sure has the X800 beat in that department...

-eMpTy

Future proof is subjective, what if HL2 comes out and it sucks on the 6800? And that's the game you want to play?

WHat if doom3 comes out and it sucks on the x800pro? Same scenario.

Do you get it? It's a gamble, there is not enough data to make any kind of computation that one will be more future proof than the other. PERIOD.

 

[scientificTHEgreat]

For crying out loud. I think it's a pretty damned safe assumption to state that the 6800 is more future-proof than the X800...Pixel Shader 3.0, HDR, hardware video decoding/encoding, full 32 bit precision...there are all very real features that the X800 does not have...so maybe the 6800 isn't perfectly future proof, but it for sure has the X800 beat in that department...

-eMpTy

take a look around (hint:www.beyond3d.com forums) and youll see that the hardware video deconding/encoding doesn't work. And some of the other shit is just marketing terms enticing the avg. consumer to buy buy buy buy. Features like ATIs FBuffer really have no use except for another strong selling point coming from the marketing front. NV also has these features they incorporate for selling points most never come around to being used. At the same time I am not saying that PS3.0 will not be used that is ridiculous so dont try to state that. By now you should get the point. If you dont stop reading the forums immediately!

 

[oqvist]

Actually the memory controller on the X800:s are programmable and totally different from the R3XX series so sure they have a lot to tweak for The X800:s aren´t as similar to the R3XX that peoples want to believe

 

[eMpTy]

Have you people forgotten the past? Yes, Nvidia was the first to the finish line with 32 bit color over 3dfx. 32 bit color performance also sucked ass.

If memory serves, with the initial TNT the only thing that could beat it was an SLI setup, and even then, not by that much.

And then with the TNT2 series, they put 3dfx to bed, while running at 32 bit when 3dfx was still doing some 18bit funny-business.

If you want to look at the past I think the one thing you can say most decidedly is that the strategy of implementing fewer features and claiming that they aren't "needed" so you can try to retain the performance crown is a mistake. Atleast 3dfx had the T-buffer.

The only reason this next generation of ATI cards isn't getting completely annihilated by the 6800s is ATI's anistropic filtering optimizations. That's the only thing that is keeping them competitive right now.

-eMpTy

 

[oqvist]

Why is then ATI even faster in comparison when enabling trilinear on all stages ?? I mean if that is the reason they can compete?

 

[eMpTy]

take a look around (hint:www.beyond3d.com forums) and youll see that the hardware video deconding/encoding doesn't work. And some of the other shit is just marketing terms enticing the avg. consumer to buy buy buy buy. Features like ATIs FBuffer really have no use except for another strong selling point coming from the marketing front. NV also has these features they incorporate for selling points most never come around to being used. At the same time I am not saying that PS3.0 will not be used that is ridiculous so dont try to state that. By now you should get the point. If you dont stop reading the forums immediately!

It is you sir who does not get the point. So I will say again. You cannot sit back and discount every feature the opposition has saying that it won't be used or it doesn't work. If you wanna talk about which is more future proof then you have to give that distinction to the Geforce. I don't care if the features can't be used yet. I don't care if some ati fanboy at beyond3d says the encoding doesn't work. The point is Nvidia is implementing a butt-ton of forward looking features and ATI is not. End of story. I don't care if PS3.0 doesn't come out till 2015, the 6800 is still more future proof than the X800.

-eMpTy

 

[eMpTy]

Why is then ATI even faster in comparison when enabling trilinear on all stages ?? I mean if that is the reason they can compete?

Got some benchmarks to back that up? Only place I've seen numbers on this was that german site that showed ATI dropping something like 25% when disabling optimizations, which is more than enough to cause a loss to the 6800. Not that it really matters, the optimizations are great, I'm just saying that optimizations are the only leg ATI has left to stand on, and I think that's valid.

-eMpTy

 

[eMpTy]

Future proof is subjective, what if HL2 comes out and it sucks on the 6800? And that's the game you want to play?

WHat if doom3 comes out and it sucks on the x800pro? Same scenario.

Do you get it? It's a gamble, there is not enough data to make any kind of computation that one will be more future proof than the other. PERIOD.

Ya know, I get the impression you're intelligent enough to see the point I'm trying to make if you just tried. PS 3.0 is the future, Nvidia has it ATI doesn't. HDR is the future, Nvida has it ATI doesn't. If you cannot bring yourself to admit that Nvidia has made the more future proof part, can we atleast say that it is the more forward looking? I mean, atleast they are trying to push the technology envelope whereas ATI seems content to stick with thier design from 2002.

-eMpTy

 

[pxc]

take a look around (hint:www.beyond3d.com forums) and youll see that the hardware video deconding/encoding doesn't work.

You should read the thread again. There's more than 1 page.

Encoding/decoding work fine, but HDTV component output isn't included. bit-tech.net got the story wrong.

 

[xXaNaXx]

So basically you're all arguing back and forth on products that are still limited in availability and driver support, and yet you think you can come up with a definitve answer?

Why not just wait a few more weeks (maybe longer, you never know with NV), let the real drivers come out, look at more reviews, and make your own damn choice.

All fanboi shit aside, I still prefer the stability of NV drivers.

amen, on both counts

 

[retardedchicken]

also, with the "which company had this first" remember, ATI had a FULLY COMPATIBLE DX9 card years before we even saw DX9....and it still isnt being fully used

 

[peltman78]

Ya know, I get the impression you're intelligent enough to see the point I'm trying to make if you just tried. PS 3.0 is the future, Nvidia has it ATI doesn't. HDR is the future, Nvida has it ATI doesn't. If you cannot bring yourself to admit that Nvidia has made the more future proof part, can we atleast say that it is the more forward looking? I mean, atleast they are trying to push the technology envelope whereas ATI seems content to stick with thier design from 2002.

-eMpTy

It doesn't matter if it has it if the feature is not usable. A good example is FP32 on the FX series. You could say those cards are more futureproof than the R350 series since they supported longer shaders, etc. The 6800's may be able to run shader programs 65000 instructions long but can it do it at a decent speed. That is the true question that we should be asking I think.

 

[eMpTy]

I know!! This has to do with the velocity of mayonaise at a billionth of a Kelvin. If the velocity can be increaced, nuclear fission is possible. But then, ketchup, or catsup have the same property. This boils down to the monkey wisdom theory.

At a billionth of a Kelvin the mayonnaise would be close enough to absolute zero that it would exhibit little molecular kinetic energy if any at all. Definitely not enough to sustain a fission reaction, even if you impregnated said mayonnaise with a fissionable material, say Uranium 238, you would still need atleast 323kg to provide the necessary critical mass in which case it wouldn't fit in a mayonnaise jar.



-eMpTy

 

[eMpTy]

also, with the "which company had this first" remember, ATI had a FULLY COMPATIBLE DX9 card years before we even saw DX9....and it still isnt being fully used

right, and see how that's a great thing for them now...so in 2 years time, people will be sitting around with their Geforce 6800s playing pixel shader 3 games at playable framerates thinking "man I remember when I bought this card all those guys said PS3.0 was going to be a useless feature"...and he'll be laughing...at everyone that wasted thier money on an X800...

-eMpTy

 

[xXaNaXx]

At a billionth of a Kelvin the mayonnaise would be close enough to absolute zero that it would exhibit little molecular kinetic energy if any at all. Definitely not enough to sustain a fission reaction, even if you impregnated said mayonnaise with a fissionable material, say Uranium 238, you would still need atleast 323kg to provide the necessary critical mass in which case it wouldn't fit in a mayonnaise jar.



-eMpTy

hahaha, this stuff actually makes more sense than all this crap everyone else seems to be throwing out there and calling it (more or less) science....not to mention, it's funny as shit!

 

[seto]

Not many of us will have either the 6800 or x800 since we will not have AGP motherboards.

Reminder: This and the next generation video cards from BOTH companies are transitions AWAY from AGP.

If you are buying an AGP card, then you are buying a DEAD END product. END OF LIFE.

Chances are your next motherboard will be PCI-E. Then what are you going to do? Brag about how powerful your limited AGP DEAD END card?

 

[creedAMD]

Ya know, I get the impression you're intelligent enough to see the point I'm trying to make if you just tried. PS 3.0 is the future, Nvidia has it ATI doesn't. HDR is the future, Nvida has it ATI doesn't. If you cannot bring yourself to admit that Nvidia has made the more future proof part, can we atleast say that it is the more forward looking? I mean, atleast they are trying to push the technology envelope whereas ATI seems content to stick with thier design from 2002.

-eMpTy

I see the point that you are trying to make, it's just that there is no proof that your point is valid. You say PS 3.0 is the future, yet have you seen what it does? Do you have proof that games coded in SM3.0 is going to be faster or look better? Do you have proof that the x800pro will not be able to do the things that the 6800 will? No, of course you don't, these are the things that everyone wants to know. It is a blind leap of faith if you buy either card at this point. SM3.0 has yet to be shown that it will have any impact on us(the gamers) your point is an opinion without any basis of fact.

 

[Unit-0]

This crap flinging back and forth is all the results of nVidia and ATi deciding what we should think about when picking video cards.

I don't see a single thread discussion about video memory latency for example, it's a HUGE deciding factor for buying computer memory. Why isn't it for video cards?

Feh, pipelines, megahertz, and PR ratings, whatever.




BTW, did anyone catch the new nVidia exclusive card with diamond coated PCB and pure gold wiring for extreme performance?







(if you believed that you'd bite into any crap these companies would fling your way)

 

[Thatonen00b]

I think the x800 will be worse at D3 than the 6800 will be at hl2, if that makes sense. Mainly because from my exp ATi cards, they are not exactly the best openGL performers(my cs and cod took a hit when I switched) and it seems that the 6800 is performing solidly in both categories. Just my stab in the dark, no real info to back it up. Even though I know I will play HL2 way more than D3 I might end up going with a GT or U.

 

[eMpTy]

I see the point that you are trying to make, it's just that there is no proof that your point is valid. You say PS 3.0 is the future, yet have you seen what it does? Do you have proof that games coded in SM3.0 is going to be faster or look better? Do you have proof that the x800pro will not be able to do the things that the 6800 will? No, of course you don't, these are the things that everyone wants to know. It is a blind leap of faith if you buy either card at this point. SM3.0 has yet to be shown that it will have any impact on us(the gamers) your point is an opinion without any basis of fact.

SM3 will eventually be in every video card on the planet.

SM3 will eventually be in every video game on the planet.

Whether it happens now or later, whether it gives a 100% performance boost or if it's just a check box on an options dialog that does hardly anything...Nvidia has it and ATI won't have it till next generation...

I for one like to be able to check all the boxes in the options dialog. In short, who gives a shit if it makes a big difference, the simple fact is that ATI lags behind Nvidia at this point and that makes the 6800 more future-proof. I agree that being more "future-proof" as I have defined it here isn't all that compelling, but it is what it is.

-eMpTy

 

[Thatonen00b]

BTW, did anyone catch the new nVidia exclusive card with diamond coated PCB and pure gold wiring for extreme performance?

hehe, I wouldnt put a stunt like that past them.

/me waits for someone to yell that it's cheating.

 

[eMpTy]

hehe, I wouldnt put a stunt like that past them.

Only precious metal I've heard mentioned is the "platinum edition" XT...

-eMpTy

 

[creedAMD]

SM3 will eventually be in every video card on the planet.

SM3 will eventually be in every video game on the planet.

Whether it happens now or later, whether it gives a 100% performance boost or if it's just a check box on an options dialog that does hardly anything...Nvidia has it and ATI won't have it till next generation...

I for one like to be able to check all the boxes in the options dialog. In short, who gives a shit if it makes a big difference, the simple fact is that ATI lags behind Nvidia at this point and that makes the 6800 more future-proof. I agree that being more "future-proof" as I have defined it here isn't all that compelling, but it is what it is.

-eMpTy

How do you know it will be in every video card on the planet? Every game? Some new games just came out that don't have SM2.

So a year and a half from now, a game comes out with SM3. The x800pro may play it faster. Yet the 6800u has support that no one can tell yet it is slower. How is that being more future proof? Not saying that will happen. But it is a chance. And that's the point that I am making. It's a gamble. You don't know or have enough data to make an assumption.

 

[eMpTy]

How do you know it will be in every video card on the planet? Every game? Some new games just came out that don't have SM2.

So a year and a half from now, a game comes out with SM3. The x800pro may play it faster. Yet the 6800u has support that no one can tell yet it is slower. How is that being more future proof? Not saying that will happen. But it is a chance. And that's the point that I am making. It's a gamble. You don't know or have enough data to make an assumption.

Well I think we've beat this to death already. I see your point, it is a gamble. My point is that for people who need to make the gamble on buying a new vid card, and are concerned about future performance, the 6800 is the better bet. Can we agree on atleast this point?

-eMpTy

 

[creedAMD]

Well I think we've beat this to death already. I see your point, it is a gamble. My point is that for people who need to make the gamble on buying a new vid card, and are concerned about future performance, the 6800 is the better bet. Can we agree on atleast this point?

-eMpTy

What makes the 6800 a better bet for future performance? I just don't see how one may have an edge over the other. It's a 50/50 gamble at this point.

 

[Unit-0]

How do you know it will be in every video card on the planet? Every game? Some new games just came out that don't have SM2.

So a year and a half from now, a game comes out with SM3. The x800pro may play it faster. Yet the 6800u has support that no one can tell yet it is slower. How is that being more future proof? Not saying that will happen. But it is a chance. And that's the point that I am making. It's a gamble. You don't know or have enough data to make an assumption.

He meant it in a general sense dude. I can make a game in a few years, not supporting SM3.0, and it would prove his statement about every game supporting SM3.0 incorrect. But generally, in the future, games would support higher technology like SM3.0 and Pixelicious Yummy Yummy 5.0 or whatever it'll be. SM3.0 is just a step up from what we have now.

By future-proof, it's looking at a wall from the side and seeing actual bricks sticking out with SM3.0. As opposed to X800 XT-PE where the wall is still flat, but if you look at it directly it'll seem like the bricks are sticking out.

 

[Unit-0]

Well I think we've beat this to death already. I see your point, it is a gamble. My point is that for people who need to make the gamble on buying a new vid card, and are concerned about future performance, the 6800 is the better bet. Can we agree on atleast this point?

-eMpTy

ATi fans will deny then downplay the SM3.0.

 

[creedAMD]

He meant it in a general sense dude. I can make a game in a few year, not supporting SM3.0, and it would prove his statement about every game supporting SM3.0 incorrect. But generally, in the future, games would support higher technology like SM3.0 and Pixelicious Yummy Yummy 5.0 or whatever it'll be. SM3.0 is just a step up from what we have now.

By future-proof, it's looking at a wall from the side and seeing actual bricks sticking out with SM3.0. As opposed to X800 XT-PE where the wall is still flat, but if you look at it directly it'll seem like the bricks are sticking out.

are you speaking of displacement mapping? You do know that the x800 can do that, right?

And if he meant alot of games may support SM3.0 then I would have maybe considered it.

But so far we know this. Nvidia tooted the horn on how easy it was to code FarCry for SM3.0, they said it took what, 3 weeks? That was 2 months ago that it was finished according to them, yet we have no proof that SM3.0 gives anything more to the 6800u than the x800pro.

 

[creedAMD]

ATi fans will deny then downplay the SM3.0.

No one is downplaying SM3.0, I am just saying that there is no data yet to UP play it other than for the game developers. Simple as that. No where has anyone said SM3.0 sucks.

 

[burningrave101]

ATi fans will deny then downplay the SM3.0.

Isn't this almost the exact same thing with The A64's and 64-bit games? Everyone is rushing out to buy a 64-bit processor and yet they dont have a 64-bit version of windows to run on it nor do they have any 64-bit games to play on it nor do they hardly even have 64-bit driver support. Yet everyone wants 64-bit. Why? Because 64-bit is a thing of the future and it is coming down the road and people want to be ready for it.

Pixel Shader 3.0 is something coming down the road for video cards and it will almost assuradly be used.

Buying any kind of hardware and thinking it has any means of being future-proof is a gamble in and of itself. But what exactly are you possibly getting out of the X800Pro in the future compared to what you MIGHT get out of the 6800's? Nothing.

 

[Warriorprophet]

Why would I need to downplay SM3.0 when carmack and Epic already have? It'll be implemented in Unreal3, ETA 2006? Even I will probably have upgraded to teh XI-800 or whatever by then...and I'm a slow adopter...

And to the person talking about PCI-E: Its a moot point until all motherboarads being sold ARE PCI-E, which, I got news for you, will probably take until 2006, seeing as we know Socket-A and Socket 478 have life until mid 2005 atleast as people sell out of current stock and AMD continues releasing barton based cpus. you argument isn't even worth stating unless you yourself already own a PCI-E X800XT-PE, which you don't hmm?

That said I'll look for the best card at $299 after I get a new case, psu, RAM, mobo, CPU, at the rate of 1 or 2 upgrades per month that puts me at maybe christmas, which could be a whole different ballgame than what we see now...

 

[ehZn]

amen, on both counts

Thanks.

I wanna quote myself here, cuz basically nothing has changed in the thread, besides empty throwing down like 15 posts right after each other

SM 3.0 can suck my balls. Gameplay > eye candy every day of the week.

 

[ZenOps]

Ati is downplaying PS 3.0 DX9.0c, and weak OpenGL drivers.

Nvidia is downplaying PCI-E, power requirements and HDTV support.

PCI-E is closer than PS 3.0 is though, and of course its hardware (which you can't just change) With PS 2.0 if necessary at least you can put it through another pass to get a 3.0 effect.

I find full HDTV support (interlaced modes included) pretty important. Pretty soon, gamers will find out about ~$1000 front screen projectors that can display 30 foot images on a wall. 21 inch CRT's and LCD's just seems so wrong after seeing bigscreen action (even at 1280x720, nevermind 1920x1080)

 

[seto]

The statement was that in 2-3 years 6800 owners were gong to be bragging that their cards were still viable while those poor ATI x800 owners could not compete.

I stated that in 2/3 years, very few of us would have these cards because they are AGP.

Why don't you READ the post.

 

[burningrave101]

The statement was that in 2-3 years 6800 owners were gong to be bragging that their cards were still viable while those poor ATI x800 owners could not compete.

I stated that in 2/3 years, very few of us would have these cards because they are AGP.

Why don't you READ the post.

What does it matter if they are AGP or not? Sure alot of us here on HardOCP will upgrade to PCI Express boards and video cards probably in 2 or 3 years time but the majority of people purchasing new video cards dont buy a new video card every year and they sure dont buy a whole new system every year and you will have to if you want PCI Express.

For that reason the 6800 ultra is a wiser choice for future support. If you dont worry about future support and upgrade yearly then just buy whichever performs the best right now.

 

[Vagrant Zero]

SM 3.0 can suck my balls. Gameplay > eye candy every day of the week.

You've got a GeForce 2 MX don't you?

 

[creedAMD]

What does it matter if they are AGP or not? Sure alot of us here on HardOCP will upgrade to PCI Express boards and video cards probably in 2 or 3 years time but the majority of people purchasing new video cards dont buy a new video card every year and they sure dont buy a whole new system every year and you will have to if you want PCI Express.

For that reason the 6800 ultra is a wiser choice for future support. If you dont worry about future support and upgrade yearly then just buy whichever performs the best right now.

That is a two sided coin as well. A lot of people are buying the video cards right now for bleeding technology. So when the pci express comes out, you better believe that a lot of people here will buy the boards and upgrade video cards as well if it shows any improvement. This is a tech site. A lot of pepple want the best no matter what the cost.

 

[Brent_Justice]

SM 4.0 is going to be the big step up BTW

It has a unified pixel and vertex shader

the step to SM 3.0 is a small one, just one of better performance and easier programming for developers, likened to that of the step from Pixel Shader 1.1 to 1.4

the big step is SM 4.0

that is when we will start to see some real geometry being created with video cards hopefully

 

[pxc]

the step to SM 3.0 is a small one, just one of better performance and easier programming for developers, likened to that of the step from Pixel Shader 1.1 to 1.4

i was wondering when someone was finally going to point that out.