New Apple Ads Smack of Desperation?

It seems to me any product or person (usually political) who relies on mudslinging to push a product or himself is hollow. How about a mac commercial showing the operating system doing something? I would never buy a product based upon attacking another.

Ditto! So Apple, what do you stand FOR? What is great about YOUR products? Why are they worth SO much more than a comparably SPEC'ed PC? As was so eloquently said about musicians who speak to politics, "Shut up and sing!"
 
But man on man do you give up a lot with a Mac, starting with your money. Windows functionality and support are just so rich and mature that most people don't even have a clue about just how powerful Windows truly is.
You don't give up much of anything, really. It's pretty easy to run Windows on a Mac. It's easy to run Windows applications on a Mac within OS X. The reverse is not really true (at least not yet): getting OS X going on a non-Mac is a little tricky, even with something fairly snazzy like Psystar's Rebel EFI.
 
You don't give up much of anything, really. It's pretty easy to run Windows on a Mac. It's easy to run Windows applications on a Mac within OS X. The reverse is not really true (at least not yet): getting OS X going on a non-Mac is a little tricky, even with something fairly snazzy like Psystar's Rebel EFI.

Sure you give up a lot, unless of course you count Boot Camp at then you're running Windows anyway.

Here's that you give up

1) You pay more at the low end for sure

2) The vast Windows application library, including the games. Yes, you can run emulators and Boot Camp, so I won't count this as a complete loss but not as seamless as running a Windows machine in the first place.

3) Hardware lock in. And sure you can hack a Mac but hacks are no guarantee of anything

In a pure Mac world, yes you give up a lot. You can add Windows to mix through emulation and Boot Camp and you can hack a Mac. But that's straying out of the Mac ecosystem.
 
If Mac has only 5-10% of the market share, how are they number 1 in customer service? I am not saying that MS CS is worth a damn, but this doesn't make sense. Maybe it's the apple tax.
 
If Mac has only 5-10% of the market share, how are they number 1 in customer service? I am not saying that MS CS is worth a damn, but this doesn't make sense. Maybe it's the apple tax.

No this makes sense as a PERCENTAGE of their customer base. No matter how many people buy Macs, I think that about 80% of their customers are happy and I believe that number is accurate. I think HP is now second at 73% or there abouts. So even though HP sells about 5 times more machines their customer satisfaction rate is lower than Apple's.
 
No this makes sense as a PERCENTAGE of their customer base. No matter how many people buy Macs, I think that about 80% of their customers are happy and I believe that number is accurate. I think HP is now second at 73% or there abouts. So even though HP sells about 5 times more machines their customer satisfaction rate is lower than Apple's.

Very true. But why does that not convert to a higher market share? They never seem to gain any ground.
 
You pay more at the low end for sure
Yep. Apple doesn't make super-low-end hardware.

Yes, you can run emulators and Boot Camp, so I won't count this as a complete loss but not as seamless as running a Windows machine in the first place.
With Boot Camp, it's as seamless as running a Windows PC. You choose an OS to boot; you boot into Windows. It's no different than a PC with a couple different operating systems installed. You choose an OS to boot; you boot into Windows. There's no real difference in that respect.

You can add Windows to mix through emulation and Boot Camp and you can hack a Mac. But that's straying out of the Mac ecosystem.
Would you say that booting OS X on a PC would be straying out of the PC ecosystem, and would you say that really matters?
 
Sorry, but I have been seeing these commercials all afternoon. How come the pc guy is never in a windows commercial?
 
Win7 new ad

Apple guy - "Hey PC, we have boot camp so we can run Windows too"
Pc guy - " We installed the right OS the first time"
 
Yep. Apple doesn't make super-low-end hardware.


With Boot Camp, it's as seamless as running a Windows PC. You choose an OS to boot; you boot into Windows. It's no different than a PC with a couple different operating systems installed. You choose an OS to boot; you boot into Windows. There's no real difference in that respect.


Would you say that booting OS X on a PC would be straying out of the PC ecosystem, and would you say that really matters?

My point about the ecosystem. Why would you buy a Mac to run Windows unless you need a Mac in the first place? There's little point to a Mac in the Windows ecosystem.
 
Very true. But why does that not convert to a higher market share? They never seem to gain any ground.

They've gain a bit in the US, because of Vista primarily I think. The main reason it hasn't been more is cost and the fact that most business buyers simply aren't going to buy Macs for the price.

Mac market share in 2010 isn't going to go up much, if at all. Windows 7 is more than good enough to hold its own against OS X for now and with continued economic weekness and much nicer hardware at the low end and now netbooks running Windows 7 out of the box, if Macs can gain market share this year color me impressed. I simply don't see how.
 
These are actually two of the better ones since they focus on features more than bashing the other guy.

http://movies.apple.com/media/us/ma...mvp-pc_innovation_lab-us-20090910_480x272.mov
http://movies.apple.com/movies/us/apple/getamac/apple_getamac_timemachine_480x272.mov

In any case, its too bad these things work. IMO was time to put them out to pasture and start a new ad campaign years ago, I just can't imagine that working based on how successful they are.

Can't be that successful. They only gained less than 2% share over the years Vista was out.
 
The world is so ignorant that they would constantly be fooled into buying an inferior product from a band of thieves that steals their ideas from their competitor? Are we all truly that ignorant?

(just my $0.02...ymmv)

Yes we are.
look at the best selling hamburger in the world.
look at the top 40 music charts.
 
Win7 new ad

Apple guy - "Hey PC, we have boot camp so we can run Windows too"
Pc guy - " We installed the right OS the first time"
That is epic.

Yep. Apple doesn't make super-low-end hardware.
Apple doesn't really make much high-end hardware either. Well, they do, (unless you want to play games) but they charge such a ridiculous premium for it it's much better just to get a normal PC.

If Mac has only 5-10% of the market share, how are they number 1 in customer service?
Customer satisfaction. There is a difference. A big difference.

And you do realize that the ratio of satisfied customers to un-satisfied customers is what counts, right? Not numbers of satisfied customers full stop?

Very true. But why does that not convert to a higher market share? They never seem to gain any ground.
Because it's a hassle to switch from anything to anything else, and I doubt Windows users are so disenchanted by their Windows experience that they would actually want to switch to a Mac. I'm sure that customer satisfaction for PCs is quite high, too.
 
They've been playing these stupid mac commercials all day during football. I friggen hate that crap.
 
*pays a lot of money for a product*
*has to feel satisfied otherwise looks like an idiot*
 
Because it's a hassle to switch from anything to anything else, and I doubt Windows users are so disenchanted by their Windows experience that they would actually want to switch to a Mac. I'm sure that customer satisfaction for PCs is quite high, too.

I think you just hit the nail on the head. I've seen a few studies that say pretty much this. For all of the problems that Windows supposedly has, for all of its super insecurity and crashes and bugs, the VAST majority of Windows PC are actually pretty satisfied.

That actually would explain a lot as Apple has gained a couple of points in market share, but with all the super hyped up Windows sucks commercials most people don't even feel a need for Mac. Ain't that something?:cool:
 
Seriously I have a rock. It sits there and does exactly what I expect it to do, be heavy. I am totally satisfied.
 
They've been playing these stupid mac commercials all day during football. I friggen hate that crap.

Yeah, I do wonder what Microsoft is thinking hear because I've not seen one Windows 7 commercial sense launch and the new Mac commercials seem about 10 years old now I've seen so much.

I'll NEVER understand Microsoft advertising to save my life. They had a pretty good thing going the Laptop Hunter adds I thought and just flat out stopped. And now at the launch of perhaps their most important OS release ever (getting past Vista), utter silence.

That said, when I was in Best Buy the other day, there wasn't a soul in the Apple section and plenty of activity in the PC area. So my guess is that Microsoft figured they had enough buzz and in a way Apple could be hurting itself because now at least a few people might actually curious about this new fangled Windows 7 and might stop by a Best Buy or ask a friend and find out that hey, I might just pick this up or even get a new system with Windows 7 on.

So with Apple spreading the word maybe Microsoft just figured that it would save its money and let Apple do the job.
 
My point about the ecosystem. Why would you buy a Mac to run Windows unless you need a Mac in the first place? There's little point to a Mac in the Windows ecosystem.
I'm still confused here. Your argument was that Mac users give up on a lot by buying Macs, for a few different reasons, but primarily because they can't run Windows applications (or Windows). After agreeing that there are some fairly reasonable options for running Windows applications either within OS X (Parallels, mainly) or via Boot Camp (effectively turning one's Mac into a Windows PC), you stated that doing so wouldn't be within the Mac "ecosystem", and, as such, Mac simply users wouldn't go for it. What is an "ecosystem" as it relates to computers, anyway?

I'm at a total loss for words here, to be honest, and that's not a common occurrence with me.
 
The point is that every Mac user that also uses Windows invalidates the entire "Mac is better" argument. "Oh but I have to use it." Well why is that?
 
There was plenty of the Windows 7 ads too. Advertising is annoying in general, but the Mac ads have always been particularly annoying to me.

Yeah I definitely saw quite a few myself, but they seem to be on different channels. I.e. during NFL Sunday, I was bombarded with Apple ads. But I'm pretty sure I saw Win7 ads on cable channels like TNT or FX. Point is I don't remember seeing an Apple commercial and then next commercial break a Win7 commercial on the same channel.
 
The point is that every Mac user that also uses Windows invalidates the entire "Mac is better" argument. "Oh but I have to use it." Well why is that?
I'd never use the "Mac is better" argument, personally. Some Macs are better in their respective classes (better meaning more features for the same or less money): the iMac's better than the Dell XPS One (unless you have a Blu-ray fixation); the Mac Pro's better than some Dell and HP workstation-class machines; the Macbook Pro's better than other laptops in its class, in some respects; the Air's better than the Adamo in many respects. I like OS X more than I do Windows 7, but not currently by leaps and bounds, and I don't do anything that specifically ties me to OS X (like Final Cut editing).

I've never heard anyone saying that they have to use Macs, so I don't exactly know where that comes from. I've seen it in the production environment, of course, due primarily to Final Cut Pro. FCP editors obviously have to use OS X, just as CAD drafters have to use Windows, so they generally end up using Macs or PCs, respectively.
 
Apple does enough to help the PC market with this http://store.apple.com/us . Look at the Mac Pro starting at $2,499. That's enough to keep PC's in the majority forever.

As has been stated and explained before, Apple does not cater to the low-end market.

This sort of thing has been done before, but I hopped on Dell's site to compare specs and prices for their workstations. I took the base model Mac Pro, at $2499, as my reference point. I then configured a Dell Precision T7400 to be as close to the Mac Pro as possible, and then compared prices.

They were a few irreconcilable disparities, which I'll point out: Dell does not give you the option to NOT order a monitor. You have to get one, so I stuck with the lowest option: An 18in 1366x768 flat panel that goes for $129 on its own. To be fair, I'll knock $129 off the price of the Dell after all is said and done. Also, the Dell uses nVidia NVS290 cards whereas the Mac Pro uses nVidia GT120 cards. As best as my research can determine, they're both just entry-level cards that retail (If they were easily available in retail channels) for around $100. I'll call it even. There were some other, small things, like DVD drives. They both have burners, the Mac's is slightly faster.. I call it even. 500gb HD on the Dell, vs 640gb on the Mac. Again, I call it even. As far as OSes go, I gave the Dell Windows Vista Ultimate. If you want to nit pick about it, it made a whopping $50 difference in price. It doesn't affect the outcome, as you will see below.

As mentioned before, the Mac Pro was $2499.
The closest equivalent I could put together from Dell's workstation site, a beefed up Precision T7400: $2746, less the $129 monitor for a final price of $2617.

A couple more disparities to mention: The Mac Pro ships with 3gb 1066Mhz DDR3 ECC ram in a Triple Channel configuration. The closest choice for the Dell was 4GB 667Mhz DD2 FB-DIMM. The Dell has 1gb more of slower RAM.

This somewhat reveals the real kicker here. Both systems come with a 2.6ghz Xeon Quad. However, the (more expensive) Dell is shipping with a Core 2-based Xeon. The Mac is using the Nehalem Xeon.

So, here amongst the cries that Macs are so overpriced that it will doom them to obscurity... And yet here we have a Dell workstation, that at best could be called equal to the Mac (I'd say the Mac is better, but that's just my opinion, I s'pose.) and yet it is more expensive.

I was thinking I'd write a strongly worded letter to Neiman-Marcus letting them know that if they want to be REALLY successful, they'd better start competing with Wal-Mart. After all, market share is everything.
 
I'm still confused here. Your argument was that Mac users give up on a lot by buying Macs, for a few different reasons, but primarily because they can't run Windows applications (or Windows). After agreeing that there are some fairly reasonable options for running Windows applications either within OS X (Parallels, mainly) or via Boot Camp (effectively turning one's Mac into a Windows PC), you stated that doing so wouldn't be within the Mac "ecosystem", and, as such, Mac simply users wouldn't go for it. What is an "ecosystem" as it relates to computers, anyway?

I'm at a total loss for words here, to be honest, and that's not a common occurrence with me.

This would negate the purpose of their ads. In your scenario, Apple would have to make an Apple vs HP or Apple vs Dell commercial because of their broader range of supported operating systems, and thus programs. Touting the ability to put Windows on a Mac natively via Bootcamp renders the entire PC vs Mac commericals moot. :p
 
This would negate the purpose of their ads. In your scenario, Apple would have to make an Apple vs HP or Apple vs Dell commercial because of their broader range of supported operating systems, and thus programs. Touting the ability to put Windows on a Mac natively via Bootcamp renders the entire PC vs Mac commericals moot. :p

Precisely! If you're going to buy a Mac to run Windows, heck it makes sense to by a Mac AND a PC. Low end PC's are super cheap, not a lot more than a copy on Windows in some cases. A $400 PC laptop these days is a decent device for 90% of retail buyers.
 
So, here amongst the cries that Macs are so overpriced that it will doom them to obscurity... And yet here we have a Dell workstation, that at best could be called equal to the Mac (I'd say the Mac is better, but that's just my opinion, I s'pose.) and yet it is more expensive.

I don't think anyone is comparing a low end Dell to a high end Mac or vice versa.

The consensus is that, sure, you can buy a Mac Pro vs a Dell workstation and they're equal or one is slightly less than the other.

The complaint is more than "the low-end". What is "low-end" to you may be "high end" to someone else. A $299 Vostro (Dell) is low-end, yes. However, even a $499 Dell beats the snot out of the Mac "low-end", the Mini. Which is easier to upgrade? The Dell. Which is built with desktop parts? The Dell. The Mini is the same abomination as the iMac, which is something that Apple tries to pass off as a desktop computer, but when you crack it open, what do you find? Laptop parts. How easy is it to upgrade laptop parts? Not very. Is it possible? Sure, anything's possible.

"General computer shopper" has a $500 price tag, usually - although with the economy still in the toilet, that may now be a $299 price tag. Either way - there are no choices on the Mac side, and that is why Apple will remain in their niche corner just like they have for the last god knows how long. It's very simple. Macs cater to two groups - trendy people who blow more money on form over function, and media professionals who have to use FCP. Everyone else - hey, there's a PC with your name on it! :eek:

Several years ago, I applied for Apple Credit to get a Mac Pro and was planning on spending around $3500. I ended up realizing the OS was not worth that price jump to me and I built my own for less than 1/4th that price.
 
Macs cater to two groups - trendy people who blow more money on form over function, and media professionals who have to use FCP. Everyone else - hey, there's a PC with your name on it! :eek:

This is my point, though. I hear this argument all the time that you pay a 'Mac Tax' or that you're paying extra for it to be shiny or something. My point is, you're not. Are there no low-end Mac options? Yes. Are the options you have overpriced? No.

That's the purpose of my post.

As far as Apple trying to push the iMac as a full-on desktop? That's misleading. Go to Apple.com right now, and the first thing you see is the iMac. Verbatim from the splash page: "The ultimate all-in-one." There was another Mac thread around here somewhere where Serpico went into an in-depth comparison of the Dell XPS all-in-one, and the iMac.

I'll mention it again: Apple is sitting on $34 billion in cold, hard cash. Everyone here at [H]ardOCP can laugh at their puny market share and jab at Macs for being useless all day long, but Apple is experiencing great business, even in a recession, and is raking in money hand over fist. Clearly, what they are doing works for them.

To take it in a slightly direction, I'll share the logical conclusions one might draw from the arguments used here to demonstrate that Apple is clearly a poor choice.

Given that we can agree market share means everything, I am now confident in stating that Britney Spears is the greatest musical artist in the world, as she ruled the Billboard Top 100 last week. The Toyota Corolla is the finest vehicle ever made by the hands of man, as it holds the designation of best selling car of all time. The Big Mac is clearly the best hamburger ever crafted. It is indisputable that Scotch is the best alcoholic drink to ever grace a shot glass. And we all know that Wal-Mart is the best retail outlet ever built. Also, let's not forget 'Titanic', the most exquisite motion picture ever released. And everyone agrees, when it comes to videogames, Wii Sports cannot be topped.

These things are all the best selling in their class. This clearly means they are the best, period, right?

This isn't an attack on Windows, but rather a statement that the logic of "Windows has 95%, everyone else sucks, lol" is pretty twisted and doesn't make a person look very good or credible. Just because they move the most units doesn't mean those units are the 'best'. In fact, one could simply say something like this:

it just proves that they can sell certain things. thats it. loel@u sir

LoL, indeed.
 
This is my point, though. I hear this argument all the time that you pay a 'Mac Tax' or that you're paying extra for it to be shiny or something. My point is, you're not. Are there no low-end Mac options? Yes. Are the options you have overpriced? No.

That's the purpose of my post.

As far as Apple trying to push the iMac as a full-on desktop? That's misleading. Go to Apple.com right now, and the first thing you see is the iMac. Verbatim from the splash page: "The ultimate all-in-one." There was another Mac thread around here somewhere where Serpico went into an in-depth comparison of the Dell XPS all-in-one, and the iMac.

I'll mention it again: Apple is sitting on $34 billion in cold, hard cash. Everyone here at [H]ardOCP can laugh at their puny market share and jab at Macs for being useless all day long, but Apple is experiencing great business, even in a recession, and is raking in money hand over fist. Clearly, what they are doing works for them.

To take it in a slightly direction, I'll share the logical conclusions one might draw from the arguments used here to demonstrate that Apple is clearly a poor choice.

Given that we can agree market share means everything, I am now confident in stating that Britney Spears is the greatest musical artist in the world, as she ruled the Billboard Top 100 last week. The Toyota Corolla is the finest vehicle ever made by the hands of man, as it holds the designation of best selling car of all time. The Big Mac is clearly the best hamburger ever crafted. It is indisputable that Scotch is the best alcoholic drink to ever grace a shot glass. And we all know that Wal-Mart is the best retail outlet ever built. Also, let's not forget 'Titanic', the most exquisite motion picture ever released. And everyone agrees, when it comes to videogames, Wii Sports cannot be topped.

These things are all the best selling in their class. This clearly means they are the best, period, right?

This isn't an attack on Windows, but rather a statement that the logic of "Windows has 95%, everyone else sucks, lol" is pretty twisted and doesn't make a person look very good or credible. Just because they move the most units doesn't mean those units are the 'best'. In fact, one could simply say something like this:

LoL, indeed.

QFT x1000, especially the last section.
 
Precisely! If you're going to buy a Mac to run Windows, heck it makes sense to by a Mac AND a PC.
Why buy two machines when one runs 'em both?

However, even a $499 Dell beats the snot out of the Mac "low-end", the Mini.
You may not realize that you're comparing apples and oranges here, but that's precisely what you're doing. The mini's a comparatively expensive machine because it uses laptop parts to achieve its form factor. The desktop machine is going to be faster, yeah, that's a given. But it's not going to hit that form factor, nor is it going to suck down a mere 13 watts when it's idling, because it can't. The mini excels in ways that you may not particularly care about (albeit not many of them), but you can't simply evaluate a given product as being faster or slower than the mini and have the entire universe revolve around that, discarding every other potential merit. Sometimes, it just isn't about encoding H.264 video faster or getting more frames per second in CoD4 for the same amount of money. Some people genuinely don't care: they'd rather have the nice-looking, small, silent, power-sipping thing than the fairly big, slightly gaudy, power-sucking thing. Others might want to maximize performance-per-watt, so the mini wouldn't make the slightest bit of sense for them. Different strokes here.

The truth is that if you want a machine that's as small as the mini, your options are basically limited to the mini and to some of the much less powerful nettops like the Acer AspireOne Revo or the ASUS EeeBox, and you'd be back to comparing apples and oranges once again (Intel Atom versus Core 2 Duo). You'll still pay the same hefty premium for the performance-per-dollar, of course. If there were more alternatives in the market for machines like the mini, then this might be a different story.

Macs cater to two groups - trendy people who blow more money on form over function...
I've never been trendy. I don't know what that has to do with anything.

This isn't an attack on Windows, but rather a statement that the logic of "Windows has 95%, everyone else sucks, lol" is pretty twisted and doesn't make a person look very good or credible.
Bingo. Anyone who directly equates objective superiority with market penetration is completely irrational. There's simply no nicer way of putting it.
 
I agree - best-selling does not equal best product. OTOH, highest profit margins also does not mean best product either. Look at the Wii (especially considering you referenced Wii Sports yourself). The Wii has ludicrous profit margins compared to 360/PS3, but no one in their right mind is going to say that the Wii is the best product just BECAUSE of its profit margins or b/c Nintendo is sitting on a ton of cash.

Note - I am saying this as a Wii owner, so I'm well aware of the Nintendo RDF - one that no longer affects me now haha.
 
The complaint is more than "the low-end". What is "low-end" to you may be "high end" to someone else. A $299 Vostro (Dell) is low-end, yes. However, even a $499 Dell beats the snot out of the Mac "low-end", the Mini. Which is easier to upgrade? The Dell. Which is built with desktop parts? The Dell. The Mini is the same abomination as the iMac, which is something that Apple tries to pass off as a desktop computer, but when you crack it open, what do you find? Laptop parts. How easy is it to upgrade laptop parts? Not very. Is it possible? Sure, anything's possible.

That "abomination" has H-IPS panels built in and is plenty fast to run or encode anything. The new 27" models also use desktop CPUs, even the i5 750 and i7 860 are both options. The only thing difficult to upgrade are the hard drive, and considering that 1TB is standard in the 27" model I don't see the big deal. It is a ridiculous value given everything inside of it, the display (well over $1000 by itself), and its tiny footprint.

I won't disagree on the Mini, I really don't like the fact that it is their only sub-$1000 computer. I don't see the value in cramming expensive parts into a tiny enclosure unless you are using it as an HTPC. Add a monitor to it and you might as well get an iMac instead, considering that the baseline 21.5" iMac has an IPS LCD that will blow away any that you'd buy by itself at Best Buy or wherever. I'd love it if Apple made a computer with consumer grade CPUs (not Xeons) and PCI-E expansion, but they don't. For everything else they sell it is usually very well priced.

That's the point we've been trying to make: Apple doesn't really compete in the low end and they don't care to. For the form factors that they do cater to, they are priced in line with or better than the rest of the industry. I can't criticize them for their existing lineup over $1000 (which is almost all of what they sell).
 
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