NCASE M1 vs. Phanteks Shift

Discussion in 'Small Form Factor Systems' started by einmannbude, Sep 14, 2017.

  1. einmannbude

    einmannbude [H]Lite

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    Hey guys,

    I already have a NCASE M1 and was running it as my gaming rig. Had some i5 CPU and a Titan X in there with a custom water loop and 2x 240mm radiators. I remember things getting too hot in there for my taste even after installing the second radiator. At the moment I am running 1080 SLI with also 2x 240mm radiators in a Jonsbo UMX4 case. SLI worked for me very well for the one game I wanted it for (Witcher 3), but not so good for other games and not at all for even others. I am already thinking about the next upgrade of my rig and don't think I want to go for SLI again. I need to have enough GPU power to fuel a LG 38" 21:9 monitor with almost 4K resolution, but I think a single GPU of the upcoming generation should be fine.

    So I was thinking about reviving the NCASE M1 and build in there again. I know this case very well. But maybe I would have the same temperature problems again. Because of the compactness of the case the bottom radiator can't perform very well and assuming the next top end GPU model will be a 250W model again plus CPU and RAM there will be ~350W to cool. Rule of thumb is 120mm rad surface per 100W. With 480mm in sum in the NCASE, while knowing that the bottom rad will not perform very well, this might not be ideal, like it was not in the past.

    I also threw an eye on the new Phanteks Shift case. Since I find the X version too large, the non X version is the only one I am interested in. They say it is built with AIO water-cooling in mind. But I would like to cool the CPU with air only and use the 2x120mm radiator spots only for the GPU. I didn't figure out yet how exactly I would set up the water loop for the GPU - pump/block on GPU, or separate pump above the bottom radiator, but I am pretty sure there is a way to do it. Because the 2x 120mm radiators would only have to cool the GPU, they should be just enough for a 250W model. Still, with my rule of thumb, there is a delta of about 50W that needs to be compensated with higher fan speeds.

    So, I am undecided between both possibilities. The problem with cooling do have both. What do you think?
     
  2. Putz

    Putz I have a custom title

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    why not just air cool everything? according to my UPS under load gaming im around 350-360w and i have no heat issues, pair of 120mm intakes on the bottom @ 75%, open air 1080, side 120mm intake @ 75% and 92mm on cpu heatsink and 92mm exhaust out the back
     
  3. einmannbude

    einmannbude [H]Lite

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    Noise! I like to have a system that makes as little noise as possible and my experience in the past was, that systems are more silent under load when water-cooled.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
  4. Dan

    Dan [H]ardness Supreme

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    Just chiming in, I just bought the Phantek shift (non x) today. I will make a thread about it as soon as my PC is swapped into it

    Air cooled ryzen 1700 and gtx 1080
     
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  5. Boil

    Boil Gawd

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    I really want to see a dual AIO build; 120mm AIO on the CPU & Hybrid GPU with 120mm AIO...

    Thermals are my biggest question with this chassis; seems like a good amount of air can come in via the bottom intake fan, but that air will be passing thru the GPU radiator, it is coming in pre-heated...

    The front intake for the CPU radiator is small, so I am curious about airflow there, as I also am about the exhaust thru similarly small vents...

    Thermals for a NVMe M.2 SSD (front or back mounted) are also a concern...

    Wondering about temps & noise & (sufficient) ventilation with an i7-8700 (with 120mm x 27mm AIO) / GTX 1070 Hybrid (again, 120mm x 27mm AIO) / ASRock H370M-ITX/ac motherboard (front-side M.2 slot) all shoved in the Shift...

    Not a super sexy boutique chassis like I drool over in this & the SFFN forums, but a unique chassis that does not break the bank...
     
  6. forScience

    forScience n00bie

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    Just put the computer under the desk. Problem solved lol.
     
  7. einmannbude

    einmannbude [H]Lite

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    It is already under the desk. Does not solve the problem. I have sensitive ears, play with speakers, not headphones and probably have an absurd low noise tolerance.
     
  8. Boil

    Boil Gawd

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    But if he goes for the Shift, that would need to be on the desk, otherwise why bother with a dual tempered glass windowed chassis...?!?
     
  9. einmannbude

    einmannbude [H]Lite

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    My system will be inaudible when idle. I need some visual indicator, that it is still on, so I don‘t go to bed without turning it of. Happened more than once with the NCASE and not yet since I have the UMX4, which is also under the desk but has glass panels and Riing fans.
     
  10. forScience

    forScience n00bie

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    I wasn't talking about the shift... I'm sure the shift is a lot quiter than the m1 being a bigger case.
     
  11. Nanook

    Nanook Limp Gawd

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    I'm very interested in the Shift as well. I'll probably try to build a custom loopin the smaller Shift with 2x 120mm radiators.
     
  12. einmannbude

    einmannbude [H]Lite

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    Which CPU and GPU do you want to put into it? I know people did custom loops in the NCASE with a single 240mm radiator in the bottom - which is far from an optimal cooling solution - and did get decent temperatures. So I think this will work also in the Shift with dual 120mm radiators, as long as the components are not the high TPD ones.
     
  13. Nanook

    Nanook Limp Gawd

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    My components are 6700K and GTX 1080 FE.
    I've done a build in the M1 with window, bottom 240 radiator, and 92mm rear radiator. It's a few pages back.
     
  14. einmannbude

    einmannbude [H]Lite

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    You have my full attention. Do you already have a plan how to compensate the 92mm radiator, which I don't see fit in the Shift? You also have a push/pull on the bottom in the NCASE. I could't find much information about how you nested fans as push exhaust into the radiator. Would like to know more about that. Nevertheless, do you plan to mod the Shift, so that you have the same there? I can imagine it in the bottom, but in the bottom front there is not enough clearance out of the box, I think.
     
  15. batmanwcm

    batmanwcm Gawd

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    Where did you find it stock? I can't seems to find the Shift anywhere.
     
  16. Nanook

    Nanook Limp Gawd

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    I believe the main issue with my NCase M1 is airflow. The case was designed for a side radiator, and 240mm should be sufficient cooling if the radiators and fans weren't obstructed. The rear 92mm radiator helped slightly. The bottom nested push fans information are probably a few more pages prior to the post I linked.

    For the Shift, I'm hoping there will be better airflow on the two 120mm mounts on the front and bottom. I have a feeling my components will run warm in this case, but the small footprint is what I really like.
     
  17. Nanook

    Nanook Limp Gawd

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    I preordered mine from Newegg.
     
  18. Dan

    Dan [H]ardness Supreme

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    I actually just got off the phone with phanteks. You can find them at www.phanteksusa.com from their actual site... Going from CA -> NY for basic ground the shipping alone was 30 bucks, so factor that in. They said They just recieved the actual stock today and will be shipping it out on monday or tuesday. At this point, Im 99% positive that phanteksusa is run by a single guy lol.
     
  19. Dan

    Dan [H]ardness Supreme

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    If you snag one directly from phanteks for a bit more on shipping, you They ship yours out next week. NE has P/O up but they don't receive their stock until the 26th I believe the guy said.
     
  20. Nanook

    Nanook Limp Gawd

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    Is that right? Thanks!
    I ordered one from them.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2017
  21. Dan

    Dan [H]ardness Supreme

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    Just got my tracking today. Just keeping you in the loop
     
  22. Nanook

    Nanook Limp Gawd

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    Same here. Thanks!
     
  23. einmannbude

    einmannbude [H]Lite

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    When your case arrived, could you please measure the height clearance between the inner bottom and the middle section. Meaning: how tall is the lower chamber of the case?

    I am wondering if I could stack a slim rad, pump bracket, and pump with reservoir there.
     
  24. Nanook

    Nanook Limp Gawd

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    Edit: My case should arrive 9/25. I'll take a measurement then.

    I'm hoping that the vertical space would work for the wc components you mentioned, since I'm planning to do the same thing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
  25. einmannbude

    einmannbude [H]Lite

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    Looking at the pictures again, there should be clearance for the bottom radiator plus the height of the vertical mounted 120mm radiator, which must be something above 120mm. My beloved (because inaudible @ 12V) Magical DCP450 pump/res-combo measures 125mm, so there shouldn't be a problem with clearance, because it can be mounted from the side. The smallest EK pump and res combo I know measures just below 120mm, although I don't know if they cut the anti-vibration-feet in. So there might also be a way to put this in.

    I am still undecided which radiators to put in. Aiming for lower fan speeds, I thought about the Hardwarelabs Black Ice Nemesis GTS 120.
     
  26. einmannbude

    einmannbude [H]Lite

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    OK, I was so curious, I also ordered the case.

    Thinking about the components in the meantime lead to the following:
    Green are already owned components

    Board
    ASUS ROG STRIX Z270i Gaming
    CPU (air cooled)
    Intel I7 6700K
    Phanteks PH-TC12LS_BK CPU Cooler
    Phanteks Halos RGB Fan Frame
    Memory
    Corsair Vengeance LPX 2x 8GB
    GPU (water cooled)
    Zotac GeForce 1080 Ti Arctic Storm Mini
    2x 120mm Radiator - HWLabs Black Ice Nemesis GTS
    Magicool MC-DCP450 pump-reservoir-combo
    Storage
    Intel 540s 1TB M.2 SSD
    PSU
    Silverstone SX600-G

    Since I don't need the storage mounting points of the case, I was wondering if it was possible to cut a hole in this area and drill some mounting points for an additional fan. So hot air could be blown outside the case to the front and the back.
     
  27. Nanook

    Nanook Limp Gawd

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    My planned components are very similar:
    • Asus Z270i Strix with monoblock
    • Intel i7 6700K delidded
    • GeForce GTX 1080 Founders Edition with full waterblock
    • Corsair Vengence 32gb 3000
    • Silverstone SX600 PSU
    Watercooling specific components that I’m hoping to fit into bottom half of case:
    • EK DDC pump/reservoir combo
    • 2x 120mm Black Ice Nemesis GTS radiators
     
  28. einmannbude

    einmannbude [H]Lite

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    My case arrived yesterday. Bad news: subtracting radiator height (30mm) the vertical clearance of the bottom chamber is just 120mm. There is no way I can cram the Magicool DCP450 above the bottom radiator. Good news though: The area reserved for the bottom fan has a height of around 28-29mm. So, if I place the radiator there instead of the fan and then the fan above, which is 25mm instead of 30mm, I just get enough clearance to put the 125mm Magicool also in. This is going to be a tight fit and I don't know yet how to fill water into the reservoir, because there is no chance to fill something in from above, besides drilling a hole in the middle cable management area. Will have to figure that out. Another downside: There is barely enough clearance for the Nemesis GTS 120 radiators if they are placed at the designated spots. You will most probably scratch the finish when installing them. And there is no way to place one of them in the bottom fan spot. That's why I ordered two Magicool G2 Slim radiators. They are half the price, but not bad in reviews. And they will hopefully fit.
     
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  29. Nanook

    Nanook Limp Gawd

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    Thanks for the update. Are you open to (or see any opportunity to) modding the case to fit the components?
     
  30. einmannbude

    einmannbude [H]Lite

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    I don't know the entire product line of EK, but this one combo of pump and reservoir, I know, says <120mm for the height in the specs. You may have to get creative with mounting, but I think you can make it without modding. I am not very experienced with modding. If you cut the bottom mounting plate, you lose the mounting hole and do not gain a lot of flexibility. You cut cut the cable management area in the middle, but then the board mounting plate would hang freely and again, it wouldn't gain much height.
    Nevertheless, as announced, I will try to mount the radiator in the bottom fan spot and therefore I will have to cut holes for the fittings conflicting with the bottom mounting plate. In addition I will have to cut the middle structure in the PSU area to fit any PSU, because I wasn't happy with the choices left leaving the structure in.
     
  31. Nanook

    Nanook Limp Gawd

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    Not really an update. Just a test fit...
    C8F7E675-2301-4F98-9C9D-359D25AD66AB.jpeg
     
  32. einmannbude

    einmannbude [H]Lite

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    It is hard to tell from this one picture, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like the bottom rad would get in the way of a fan, that should be added to the side radiator, right? Do you have a plan yet how to mount the pump?

    In the meantime I was also thinking about my problem with the magicool pump. I came up with the idea of mounting it like in your picture, but 90° rotated along the vertical axis, meaning: it would point towards the glass side panel. Not the optimal solution from an asthetic point of view, but it might work without cutting holes in the case. Also the problem of filling would be solved.
     
  33. Necere

    Necere 2[H]4U

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    Just a heads up: you guys may want to test the Shift's included PCIe flex riser outside the case before assembling your build. There's been at least one report of a faulty riser cable. IMO the way he tested it should actually reveal flaws in the riser better than many other tests might. You really want to send a lot of data over the PCIe bus, which running high framerates does. So to test, what I'd do:
    1. Get a fairly easy to run game of your choice (CS:Go for example)
    2. Set everything to low, including the resolution
    3. Uncap framerates, disable v-sync/g-sync/free-sync etc.
    First test with the GPU directly in the slot, to get a baseline. Note the average framerate, and any glitches or artifacts.

    Next connect the flex riser between the GPU and slot. Repeat the test above, and record your results. Note any differences.


    Other companies have had issues with flexible riser reliability, notably Thermaltake. It's significant that both they and Lian Li started with cheaper risers, but have since moved to higher quality cables that cost as much as the 3M included with the DAN A4. It wouldn't surprise me if we see the same thing with the Shift.
     
  34. Nanook

    Nanook Limp Gawd

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    Will be sure to run some tests. Thanks!
    I do have a couple of working cable to swap in if needed. I might use an alternative cable since I’m hoping to push the graphics card as far away from the radiator as possible (closer to the PSU).
     
  35. Nanook

    Nanook Limp Gawd

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    I’ll try to fit fans later this evening.

    Another alternative is to put a 240 or 280 in place of the rear aluminum panel...
     
  36. einmannbude

    einmannbude [H]Lite

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    Thanks for the advise. I will do that. Fortunately I have a Lian Li riser cable as a spare part, just in case.

    Did you make any progress? I am still waiting for my radiators to arrive.

    I can't imagine that looking good, but never say never. This would need a serious mod of the rear panel.
     
  37. Nanook

    Nanook Limp Gawd

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    I did a bunch of test fit with various fans and radiators, but no components yet... I still need my current PC, and wanted to have a solid plan build tearing down current build. Here’s some documentation...
    XSPC on the front, HWL (these things are sooo wide) on the bottom: 1D200F4D-3C64-4B4E-8670-38F9EEC41F7B.jpeg

    15mm slim 120mm fan can potentially fit in place of the SSD mounting spot. Just need to cut venting:
    73560EF2-C3F4-4DEA-8F0D-FC38631B5214.jpeg

    A 25mm thick 120mm might fit if I cut out a full 120x120 opening at the SSD wall:
    1C5887D6-79AA-4E09-B11E-CC006F8B6A93.jpeg

    A slim 120mm could fit here, with front cover fully close, but zero air flow:
    E6FBA225-69A1-45DF-9A57-247CA58E4DA1.jpeg

    240mm radiator held up by a 120mm fan on inside:
    5AB3660A-8860-4252-B791-1A38F17CD409.jpeg

    Inside view:
    D0AE4FA3-A9D9-461A-933A-AADCA2243907.jpeg

    240mm radiator ports blocked by front wall. Will need mod if I go this route: B2CFAD13-EED0-4AF9-AC61-E7E57EBC7F28.jpeg

    A 280 can fit on the front wall. It does but the bottom half of the radiator will not get full 140mm of air:
    1A133C8D-D4C1-48FC-922E-086626A09364.jpeg

    Curious to see if some sort of double 120 radiator would fit. Yes but where would PSU go?
    9D0026DE-CE0C-4FB0-96BE-2F310472C76B.jpeg
    62E30782-2C7C-4EB0-9B94-7618087A97F6.jpeg


    I have two more ideas to try out, but no pictures yet:
    1) mount pump (only) in the lower chamber with the radiators mounted as intended, and use QDC and a removable reservoir for filling / bleeding.

    2) mount pump and res combo horizontally in front of motherboard. There may be some space by the pcie and riser cable.
     
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  38. einmannbude

    einmannbude [H]Lite

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    This is interesting. Imagine a third 120 in the bottom with a fan as intake and the 2x 120 radiators at the side with exhaust fans. SFX PSU could maybe sit in between, if a CPU block-pump-comb was used. SFX-L PSU would prevent a bottom fan, but the two side fans would probably pull enough air through the bottom radiator. There is a passive SFX-L PSU from Silverstone in development.
    If the motherboard panel could be moved towards the side, maybe there would be enough clearance between its back and the GPU to mount the PSU in between.
     
  39. Nanook

    Nanook Limp Gawd

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    Re: front and rear 120mm radiators, I’m wondering if cooling would work with having the upper front 140mm fan as the only fan, close off the case floor, and force air to be drawn in through radiators and exhuast out the upper fan. (Similar to the Corsair One airflow design)
     
  40. einmannbude

    einmannbude [H]Lite

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    I think you would also have to seal the top and the upper rear vents. But I encourage you to try it