NCASE M1: a crowdfunded Mini-ITX case (updates in first post)

3M tape then.

This is the underside of the hd's I plan on using(Travelstar 7K1000).
6.jpg

They only weigh 115gr but I'm reluctant in taping any sort of adhesive there that might screw them up. With an ssd I really wouldn't have that problem.

Wondering how Necere secured does two ssd in the front.
NdYX2Tyl.jpg

Would velcro be too thick and prevent the front panel from closing?
 
Wondering how Necere secured does two ssd in the front.
NdYX2Tyl.jpg

Would velcro be too thick and prevent the front panel from closing?

He didn't. That picture was taken with the case lying on its back, and the SSDs simply sitting on the front for illustrative purposes.
 
Put the tape on the top of the drive?

I see what you mean. Kinda like in this pic, they would be mounted with the label taped to the case. Good thinking.
UUXEV7el.jpg

The only thing and you can see in the picture, the screws have those shock absorbers that in a 7200rpm drive will make a difference. Won't taping it simply carry the vibrations all across the case?

He didn't. That picture was taken with the case lying on its back, and the SSDs simply sitting on the front for illustrative purposes.

Of course it was. Don't know how I missed it. Gonna have some breakfast and wash my face to see if I wake up properly.
 
I see what you mean. Kinda like in this pic, they would be mounted with the label taped to the case. Good thinking.
UUXEV7el.jpg

The only thing and you can see in the picture, the screws have those shock absorbers that in a 7200rpm drive will make a difference. Won't taping it simply carry the vibrations all across the case?

Yep, that's what I meant. You could use double sided tape, it's a little spongy, that might help to keep the vibrations down. 2.5" drives don't vibrate a heck of a lot anyway, right? At least the drives that I have used have been pretty good in that regard.

There has to be a pretty straightforward way to do this. Think outside the box ;)
 
Yep, that's what I meant. You could use double sided tape, it's a little spongy, that might help to keep the vibrations down. 2.5" drives don't vibrate a heck of a lot anyway, right? At least the drives that I have used have been pretty good in that regard.

There has to be a pretty straightforward way to do this. Think outside the box ;)

You know what. The thing I was looking forward the most was for Necere to confirm the optical drive mounts were removable. If they weren't it would involve cutting metal which I can't. As for the rest, you're right, some outside the box thinking will solve this.
The problem would be solved if I used ssd's. I can't imagine what 3 Crucial M500 960gb in raid 0 will do in terms of speed when all drives are SATA 6.0gb/s, but it's like this. When the 840 pro came out and started dying because of a faulty firmware I re-thought my whole hardware strategy. I've never had a spindle hard drive die on me and I still have an 500gb Iomega external drive from like the first generation of 500gb capacity drives that showed up on the market and it has yet to give me any problem. I cannot and will not risk a 3 disk raid 0 to ssd's, not matter how much I read they're good. Ssd caching absolutely, but as a boot drive, no effin way. And that I'm afraid is irrevocable. I'm hardwired that way.
 
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Delock has endless combinations...
I've been looking at a number of Delock accessories recently, but I don't actually know too much about the brand. There are a quite a few items with good reviews on Amazon, as well as few bad.

Are Delock products generally good quality and reliable? I'm mostly interested in the the premium USB 3.0 cables (the ones with the red connectors) and the bluetooth adapters
 
I think they have the better quality SATA cables around, since better options are generally industry standard and not available for purchase to a consumer.
 
I've never had a spindle hard drive die on me and I still have an 500gb Iomega external drive from like the first generation of 500gb capacity drives that showed up on the market and it has yet to give me any problem. I cannot and will not risk a 3 disk raid 0 to ssd's, not matter how much I read they're good. Ssd caching absolutely, but as a boot drive, no effin way. And that I'm afraid is irrevocable. I'm hardwired that way.


I've had the complete opposite experience: multiple hdd failures over the years from many brands: WD, Maxtor, Seagate, and IBM. On the other hand I've yet to have an issue with my personal ssds, those installed for family, or recommended to friends. My current boot drive is a gen1 sandforce drive that I've been running since 2010 without a hiccup. According to all the horror stories it should have blown up my computer 10mins after install. Now that I've owned an ssd I can't live without the "snappiness."
 
I've had multiple SSD's crap out on me, as countless hard disks, all on personal computers. I don't know what you are getting at, it is a FACT that hardware will fail. There is no storage medium in the consumer world that's unbreakable. Hard drives, SSD's, USB sticks, optical disks, tapes,... It all fails some day. It's naive to put too much trust in storage.
 
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I've had multiple SSD's crap out on me, as countless hard disks, all on personal computers. I don't know what you are getting it, it is a FACT that hardware will fail. There is no storage medium in the consumer world that's unbreakable. Hard drives, SSD's, USB sticks, optical disks, tapes,... It all fails some day. It's naive to put too much trust in storage.

My point was that everyone's experience is different and that no hardware is 100% reliable 100% of the time. :p
 
I'm mostly interested in the the premium USB 3.0 cables

Going to be very honest. If you're looking for a usb 3.0 cable I would recommend startech, and only because I have one and besides being really sturdy and well built, I have excellent speeds when using my usb 3.0 pen drive.
The delock I like because they have that metal hinge that will secure the cable, and all those configurations regarding angled cables. But I never used them. Only read nice things about them.

My point was that everyone's experience is different and that no hardware is 100% reliable 100% of the time. :p

I know what you mean, but personally, and I have 11 HD ranging from 80gb to 3tb and not one ever failed. That's including sata and ide drives. So I wouldn't change to ssd's no matter how big my budget is. SSD caching absolutely, cause in case of failure you lose nothing.
 
I've had multiple SSD's crap out on me, as countless hard disks, all on personal computers. I don't know what you are getting it, it is a FACT that hardware will fail. There is no storage medium in the consumer world that's unbreakable. Hard drives, SSD's, USB sticks, optical disks, tapes,... It all fails some day. It's naive to put too much trust in storage.

Bingo, everything dies. I have had many SSD's and many HDD's from every brand die. (I have also had WAY more than 11 drives NOT die. 11 drives is nothing... My experience literally ranges across hundreds, if not thousands of drives.)

Keep your important data on a redundant array that is also backed up.

Put your system on fast SSD's, and don't keep anything important there unless it is backed up also. All of my computers, even my CarPC and work pc have SSD's in them. I even put my own personal SSD's into my work machines if work will not buy one for me, it's that big of a deal to me.

Why make yourself live with crap performance when you don't have to.
 
Yeah, this is pretty YMMV... If you're worried about data integrity go RAID1/10/5/50/Z, if you're worried about performance go 0/10/50. From what I've heard most desktop applications lack the queue depth(?) to actually see the same real-world performance as you do in synthetics. SSDs are faster, more expensive, and have ballpark better MTBF and better environmental thresholds but MTBF can be a little misleading as it depends more on how much data can be written to the device over it's operational life...
 
RAID 5 is not a backup. RAID 10 is not a backup. A backup is a backup.

The only one I'd really bother with is RAID 6. At least then you get more bang for you buck than with JBOD, but it's still only "probably secure", and isn't 100%. If you really want to make sure your stuff is safe, you do a 1:1 off-site backup.

RAID 1 doesn't work, because if something corrupts on one drive, it's instantly transferred to the other. You can real-time redundancy, but you also gain the possibility of real-time failure.

As for SSDs vs. HDDs, SSD are, on average, much longer lived. Obviously there will be exceptions and outliers to this, but in this day and age, there's no reason not to trust a consumer SSD over a consumer HDD, assuming quality brands, etc. People had the same problems moving from tape to HDDs back in the day. Is anyone still running tape drives now?
 
Cool! They're putting out a 120mm TD03 CLC as well, but there doesn't seem to be a product page as of yet. Can't wait for some reviews on these.
 
Hi all,

Kickstarter campaign material submitted for review. Once Kickstarter approves our campaign, we can launch right after.
 
Hi all,

Kickstarter campaign material submitted for review. Once Kickstarter approves our campaign, we can launch right after.

Will you be sending out links to indego donors to insure they get first dibs?

If not, how will the transition from the indego campaign to kickstarter work?
 
Will you be sending out links to indego donors to insure they get first dibs?

If not, how will the transition from the indego campaign to kickstarter work?

Yes, IGG donors gets first dibs and priority shipping. have list of emails from IGG donors. I will cross check.
 
So those of us on the Indiegogo Early Shipment List # 1 & 2 are still in line to get the 1st units that are made? (I'm on list #2)
Do I need to do anything further with regards to Kickstarter to still be able to buy a unit when they're ready?
 
you'd still have to submit a pledge (agree to buy) on the kickstarter page. from the old info they gave, they'll need i think minimum of 300 pledges, otherwise none will get made.
 
Yes, IGG donors gets first dibs and priority shipping. have list of emails from IGG donors. I will cross check.

What if we did two separate donations on the first 100, to secure 2 cases. Am I still going to get 2 out of the first shipment of cases?
 
Hi all,

Kickstarter campaign material submitted for review. Once Kickstarter approves our campaign, we can launch right after.

I always assumed you guys would be getting a second prototype to weed out some aspects. The one I'm more concerned about is the lack of more 2.5" mounts on the front.
And before I get shot down by everyone, I believe the original campaign made enough money that you could redesign some minor aspects and have another case sent to you to see everything to perfection before going live in the kickstarter, and still be more than within budget.
I know the velcro solution is something that might work, but it seems flimsy to use that in such a premium case. I thought such a redesign would be doable, considering you also thought of that wahaha360.
 
I think 1 or 2 is a reasonable amount for personal purchases, as long as no one on the priority list is getting 10 or so. That is from the mindset that the first few hundred WILL sell out like hot cakes.

Necere and Wahaha360:
I hope you are going to do (or can do) a comparison of the Ncase with a Z77 motherboard, Core i7-3770K, Radeon 7970 or equivalent Nvidia GTX, SSD and HDD, with aircooling (because that seems to work best), in contrast to an equivalent mATX case (maybe Lian-Li PC-V35x ?) just to show your case so awesomely flexible and capable.

But also please stress the importance of the PSU limitations (size) because it seems still many enthusiasts think you need atleast a 700W PSU for the above setup at minimum. People tend to think bigger PSU's are for higher-end hardware and totally forgot about the last 4 generations of power efficiency optimizations that the hardware manufacturers have done.

It's also suddenly so quiet about the 20mm height increase and the perforated right panel. Is it already decided by you, the developers, or will there still be a voting round ?
 
It's also suddenly so quiet about the 20mm height increase and the perforated right panel. Is it already decided by you, the developers, or will there still be a voting round ?

On my above post where I mentioned the changes that could still be made, the right side panel was one of them. If it's something that will improve thermal capacity, I don't think it should even be up for voting, because unlike the height increase, it doesn't change anything in the design. Somewhat like adding capacity for the two hd's in the front with a little bit of redesign.
Once again, I'm surprised that after one prototype you're going into production mode. I know people ant their case as soon as possible(like I do), but I would prefer waiting for something more refined.
 
But doesn't a second prototype cost another large sum of money for something we can basically guestimate with 95% confidence ? I can't think of any real negative side effects of the changes proposed.
 
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But doesn't a second prototype cost another large some of money for something we can basically guestimate with 95% confidence ? I can't think of any real negative side effects of the changes proposed.

From the Indigogo page:

Funding Allocation:
USD 2000 2 x M1 prototypes from Lian Li (Silver & Black)
USD 50 Import Duty (2.5% of value)
USD 2 Merchant Processing Fee
USD 250 Air Shipping (Ocean shipping takes 30days)
USD 13 Insurance ($0.65 for every $100)
USD 500 Testing Equipment / Components


So, two prototypes at an estimate 2000 dollars. We already have one, and considering the campaign achieved nearly 9000 dollars I wouldn't see a problem in havin a second prototype with some revisions, not only because of all the money achieved, but because it was part of the original project. And even with some of the budget spent on hardware to test, there must be a huge sum that can be allocated to the second prototype.

And also from the indiegogo:

Once we've tested the prototype and made the necessary revisions, the next step will be a limited production run
My thing is that there were lots of testings which we are all grateful, but no revisions so far. I think adding a second 2.5" mounting in the front is something that adds value to the case. Use two fans on the bottom, and a full atx psu like you can and you have one mounting on the front, and that's assuming you won't use the optical drive. Use those same two fans on the bottom and two in the side panel with the sfx psu and you have one 2.5" mounting if you use the optical drive. Now, if you have those two in the front you can go for raid, as I'm sure any serious gamer won't use an optical drive. And yes, I'm aware you have an 3.5" removable caddy, but use a cooler like the noctua NH-C14 and you can't mount it.
So a case like this to have such limited 2.5" mounting capability, I am worried I don't have more options. Looks at the pics below and you see what i mean.
DdTk1y8.jpg

RMgfA99l.jpg


And yes, there are no negative sides to those changes, but they have to be tested. You can't change a design and go into production. This is not a big company that can recall their product if something doesn't come out right.
 
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I am beginning to want a case without any drive racks or space. Force everyone to buy mITX with mSATA. I'm also thinking that, if we design a case specifically for no drive racks or panels, it has the potential to be even smaller.
 
So, two prototypes at an estimate 2000 dollars. We already have one, and considering the campaign achieved nearly 9000 dollars I wouldn't see a problem in havin a second prototype with some revisions, not only because of all the money achieved, but because it was part of the original project. And even with some of the budget spent on hardware to test, there must be a huge sum that can be allocated to the second prototype.
While I see your point, I'm not sure the money would be best spent on the second prototype unless Necere says it's really REALLY necessary. I think we have concluded the case is conforming to expectations and the proposed changes (20mm height increase, perforated right panel, two 2,5" mounts behind front panel) would not impact the case's performance negatively. I'm failing to see what it would benefit having another prototype made.

Mind you, I'm no product design expert, I'm just giving my humble educated and experienced opinion and I'd like to hear input from Necere or Wahaha360 if I'm wrong about this. Maybe the cost is already calculated on the invoice or the price for one or two prototypes is minimal, I don't know this.

I think adding a second 2.5" mounting in the front is something that adds value to the case. Use two fans on the bottom, and a full atx psu like you can and you have one mounting on the front, and that's assuming you won't use the optical drive. Use those same two fans on the bottom and two in the side panel with the sfx psu and you have one 2.5" mounting if you use the optical drive. Now, if you have those two in the front you can go for raid, as I'm sure any serious gamer won't use an optical drive. And yes, I'm aware you have an 3.5" removable caddy, but use a cooler like the noctua NH-C14 and you can't mount it.
I totally agree with you on the second 2,5" mounting, because it would increase flexibility (if possible) without sacrificing other options. I'd certainly use it or be happy to have the option to use it.

This is not a big company that can recall their product if something doesn't come out right.
A recall is every company's worst nightmare, bar some automotive industry giants.

I am beginning to want a case without any drive racks or space. Force everyone to buy mITX with mSATA. I'm also thinking that, if we design a case specifically for no drive racks or panels, it has the potential to be even smaller.
While I agree offering 3,5" mounting options and support for ATX is counter-productive for an efficient mITX system, the case doesn't waste much space with these options. But this added flexibility will be crucial for some. It's not like there is an unremovable 2x 3,5" drive cage, you can easily remove the bracket and mount various other stuff or just plainly omit it from your build.

If anything, people should be more aware of the PSU options they have (SFX, TFX, picoPSU) as well as storage options (mSATA, 2,5" SSD, external/NAS for files), because most people still seem to think they NEED those full-size devices like 800W PSU's and multiple 3,5" hard disks inside the computer.
 
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I think we have concluded the case is conforming to expectations and the proposed changes (20mm height increase, perforated right panel, two 2,5" mounts behind front panel) would not impact the case's performance negatively. I'm failing to see what it would benefit having another prototype made.

But my point is this, because this is a small two man operation and the budget exists, everything should be tested. Can you be sure that the perforated panel and reversed psu will be beneficial? Only when tested.
The mounts on the front panel (behind the front cover) need to be placed and tested. There will be 4 cables in total that will need to be routed to the inside of the case. You design them on the best place you think will get the job done, but then you test it.

And like you, I'm no product design expert, and I'm also just giving my humble opinion and I would also like to hear input from Necere or Wahaha360 on this subject.

My point is that the indiegogo achieved more than enough money to justify a second prototype with these changes and not simply go with them and hope for the best because on paper they work.

A recall is every company's worst nightmare, bar some automotive industry giants.

Yes, but those company's have the budget to recall an entire line if it is released not up to spec. This is not the case.
 
While I agree offering 3,5" mounting options and support for ATX is counter-productive for an efficient mITX system, the case doesn't waste much space with these options. But this added flexibility will be crucial for some. It's not like there is an unremovable 2x 3,5" drive cage, you can easily remove the bracket and mount various other stuff or just plainly omit it from your build.

If anything, people should be more aware of the PSU options they have (SFX, TFX, picoPSU) as well as storage options (mSATA, 2,5" SSD, external/NAS for files), because most people still seem to think they NEED those full-size devices like 800W PSU's and multiple 3,5" hard disks inside the computer.
While I agree that there is enough space to be flexible enough for a couple of 2.5" drives, I just don't believe this case needs to be any bigger to accommodate more parts. In fact, I, maybe one of a few here, would rather the case be even smaller. I also follow the M3 aluminum case thread (never posted there), and I find myself often dreaming about an even smaller case that could work with just a mITX, a low profile cooler, mSATA, a SFX psu, a 200-250mm fan (final design pending), and the Asus 670 mini, and maybe just maybe a slim optical drive. I also dream about another bigger but still smaller than the Ncase and the M3 that's just mITX, mSATA, swiftech H220, and a evga hydro titan, also maybe a slim optical drive. As for my dream cases, the slim optical drive will only be added to the design if there is room. Basically, I will not make room except for the essentials. I do believe that the ncase is almost as perfect as it gets in any case or prototype I've seen.
 
While I agree that there is enough space to be flexible enough for a couple of 2.5" drives, I just don't believe this case needs to be any bigger to accommodate more parts. In fact, I, maybe one of a few here, would rather the case be even smaller. I also follow the M3 aluminum case thread (never posted there), and I find myself often dreaming about an even smaller case that could work with just a mITX, a low profile cooler, mSATA, a SFX psu, a 200-250mm fan (final design pending), and the Asus 670 mini, and maybe just maybe a slim optical drive. I also dream about another bigger but still smaller than the Ncase and the M3 that's just mITX, mSATA, swiftech H220, and a evga hydro titan, also maybe a slim optical drive. As for my dream cases, the slim optical drive will only be added to the design if there is room. Basically, I will not make room except for the essentials. I do believe that the ncase is almost as perfect as it gets in any case or prototype I've seen.

I'm with you too. The case has more than enough hard drive mount options, but yet people keep asking for more. This isn't supposed to be a NAS case. I think a SFF should have one drive, or one for OS (mSATA) and one 2.5" for storage, and that should be enough. This is just my opinion, since I don't fill my PC's with HD's - I have a NAS for that.
 
While I agree that there is enough space to be flexible enough for a couple of 2.5" drives, I just don't believe this case needs to be any bigger to accommodate more parts. In fact, I, maybe one of a few here, would rather the case be even smaller. I also follow the M3 aluminum case thread (never posted there), and I find myself often dreaming about an even smaller case that could work with just a mITX, a low profile cooler, mSATA, a SFX psu, a 200-250mm fan (final design pending), and the Asus 670 mini, and maybe just maybe a slim optical drive. I also dream about another bigger but still smaller than the Ncase and the M3 that's just mITX, mSATA, swiftech H220, and a evga hydro titan, also maybe a slim optical drive. As for my dream cases, the slim optical drive will only be added to the design if there is room. Basically, I will not make room except for the essentials. I do believe that the ncase is almost as perfect as it gets in any case or prototype I've seen.

I'm with you too. The case has more than enough hard drive mount options, but yet people keep asking for more. This isn't supposed to be a NAS case. I think a SFF should have one drive, or one for OS (mSATA) and one 2.5" for storage, and that should be enough. This is just my opinion, since I don't fill my PC's with HD's - I have a NAS for that.

I'm gonna address both your comments since you guys are in tune. I'm not for the 2cm increase in height as I think the case is perfect for a powerful system as it is.
But see from my point of view. I know the hardware I want to use, and I'll not change any of that for a case. The new Asus Z87-itx doesn't have an msata port, and I wouldn't change to a different board because of that. I don't mind having to abandon the watercooling aspect since the M1 looks pretty cool with only air coolers, but to sacrifice other aspects will make me look somewhere else, and that's something I do not want to do. I want the M1 because of how sleek and powerful of a system you can have in a case that small. So changing the front panel to accommodate two hd's instead of one will give the case more flexibility while maintaining the same size. The case does have more 2.5" mounts, but that would require sacrificing temps, as I wouldn't be able to install fans in the bottom. You can't say that 2 hd's (one of them being an msata) is enough for a system, and that is my opinion. With the new boards having only sata 6gbps ports, 2 drives in raid are amazing. 3 will be impressive. That's why I'm pushing for a second mount in the front panel.

I can tell you I had an idea for adding more 2.5" drives without changing anything in the case itself, but that would require the design/creation of an additional component and for that I think it's to late. But for a few improvements this is the time.
 
I agree it's the most sane to not try to crap an entire ATX setup in this case and be amazed it won't fit, but just keep it as efficient as possible.

But luckily this case has many options so that almost any configuration can be achieved, bar the most extreme setups which obviously can't fit because it just isn't possible. Like LGA2011 (no mITX motherboards) and SLI or Crossfire (no dual PCI-e 16x mDTX).

But I'd like to stretch the possible to the limit, which Necere already did by testing the Noctua NH-C14 heatsink and the Arctic Cooling Accelero Xtreme. No need to keep space for air :)
 
I'm interested to know the list of changes planned for the production model as compared to the prototype model.
 
I submitted campaign info to KS just to start the approval process. After approval, we will make final changes to the campaign before it goes live.

Before we KS campaign goes live, we will update the M1 with changes (WILL PUBLISH THE UPDATED CHANGES) and order a 2nd prototype from Lian Li.

Within the fist 10 days after the KS campaign goes, we expect to receive prototype 2, which will be updated on the KS campaign.

The reason we are doing it this way is to expedite delivery dates. Production + Shipping will take 70 days, if we don't get funded before July, delivery will be pushed back to OCT.
 
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