Yes, but you can't move around in 3D real time in a DVD scene can you? If some of the people here knew anything about 3D graphics, then they wouldn't make rediculous statements. Panning around in a DVD where you move around the static scene in simple 2D with picture degradation as you zoom in is very much the opposite of what you can do in MGS2. As you move the camera around, it doesn't pan, but it turns and the 3D world within the cameras' view is calculated and processed in real time. Maybe you should pop in MGS2 and take another look. Now I really can't say if what was shown in that video was in-game or not, but judging by the screenshots, I'd take a shot at saying they are real in-game footage. Look at the texturing. Take some time to look at some of the details. Screenshots NEVER (repeat: NEVER) justify a good looking game, it ALWAYS looks much better when it's running rather than in a screenshot. And a video like that could very easily be pulled off in real time. Maybe not at that same level of graphical detail as nothing powerful enough is out yet...but definitely movement and cinematography like that and view switching like that is possible. All I have said in this post is fact.Gob said:Guess what? I have a dvd player that can let you zoom in and pan too! Does that mean that my dvd player is rendering those movies in realtime?
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MGS 4 Trailer
- Thread starter Bob-0
- Start date
Everyone who denies the fact that the MGS4 trailer was real-time in-engine footage is dilusional. They are just afraid of their precious hand-built "mega rigs" getting the pimp slap from this generation of consoles. The technology gap has been closed, the HD era is here and it's available in various tight little packages from Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony.
Don't get me wrong, PC gaming isn't dead and there certainly isn't any reason to rush out and sell your computers as they have a plethora of other uses besides gaming, but you might want to reconsider that pair of $500 7800GTX's you just bought.
Don't get me wrong, PC gaming isn't dead and there certainly isn't any reason to rush out and sell your computers as they have a plethora of other uses besides gaming, but you might want to reconsider that pair of $500 7800GTX's you just bought.
Kevin Lowe
Gawd
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- Jul 25, 2004
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- 766
I'm more interested in asking: can the X360 handle this?
I'm sure it can. It looks to me like MGS4 uses a very high polygon count, as to where games being shown for the Xbox360 are looking to use Unreal Engine tactics and use a low poly count with shaders and effects to get a high-poly count look. I hate the fact that so many developers are using this method...games simply look better with more polygons, rather than that toy-action-figure-shiny-fake look that these shaders are giving characters. I like polygons....Kevin Lowe said:
I absolutely love the MGS series.
For all of us who played MGS1, MGS2, and MGS3, we know that this MGS4 TGS 2005 footage is not pre-rendered. It's a cut-scene using in-game engine. Kojima is notorious for doing all of his MGS games like that. The only time he uses DVD footage is for example when they show old movies from the cold war or atomic bomb tests and so on.
Believe it or not, it's the in-game engine. And if you don't believe us, you'll see in Spring 2005. I cannot wait. I'm buying the PS3 solely on MGS4
ps. and UT2K7 of course
For all of us who played MGS1, MGS2, and MGS3, we know that this MGS4 TGS 2005 footage is not pre-rendered. It's a cut-scene using in-game engine. Kojima is notorious for doing all of his MGS games like that. The only time he uses DVD footage is for example when they show old movies from the cold war or atomic bomb tests and so on.
Believe it or not, it's the in-game engine. And if you don't believe us, you'll see in Spring 2005. I cannot wait. I'm buying the PS3 solely on MGS4
ps. and UT2K7 of course
Night Fox said:Everyone who denies the fact that the MGS4 trailer was real-time in-engine footage is dilusional. They are just afraid of their precious hand-built "mega rigs" getting the pimp slap from this generation of consoles. The technology gap has been closed, the HD era is here and it's available in various tight little packages from Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony.
Don't get me wrong, PC gaming isn't dead and there certainly isn't any reason to rush out and sell your computers as they have a plethora of other uses besides gaming, but you might want to reconsider that pair of $500 7800GTX's you just bought.
Tend to disagree. Every generation of consoles all the hype is about how they are more powerful then the current gen of pc's...yadda yadda. Even if this gen is more powerful....give it 2-6 month and PCs are on top once again.....but the lowly consoles still have 5 years of shelf life at the given specs. Thats just how it always is. Before the flames start....I enjoy all systems. I own all the systems I can possibly get my hands on in the past (if they have great games) and PC's also. So I have no ill will towards either camp....I just dont understand why people cant embrace everything and understand that PC's always come out on top specs wise.
DJ Zaki said:Believe it or not, it's the in-game engine. And if you don't believe us, you'll see in Spring 2005. I cannot wait. I'm buying the PS3 solely on MGS4
ps. and UT2K7 of course
I dont care if its in engine or not....the game play will not look like that. Spring 2005 is gone btw.
CypherNinja
[H]ard|Gawd
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- Sep 28, 2002
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- 1,732
I can't wait for this........... seriously......... ::twitch::
Hideo never uses CG in his cutscenes. It's so funny that so many guys are now insecure about the money they spent on PC upgrading. I don't care about platforms that much myself. If there is a good game on the PC, i upgrade my PC. If there is a good game on the PS3/Revolution/360, I buy one of those too. It's all about the games baby.
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2005
- Messages
- 9,097
http://s33.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1IJ4UE828392M1DJ3SY7NLTDML
super quality video taping of mgs 4 vid. some color problems, and text is washed out, but this is the best quality video i've seen so far, by a long shot. get it. its a fast dl too, I got 500 average off of it.
super quality video taping of mgs 4 vid. some color problems, and text is washed out, but this is the best quality video i've seen so far, by a long shot. get it. its a fast dl too, I got 500 average off of it.
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2005
- Messages
- 9,097
jdunner3 said:
2-6 months? it takes longer than that for pc to really pull away, for the most part, the biggest advantage pc has ever had was resolution, and only recently have PCs finally significanlty outpaced current gen consoles in the graphics department (disregarding resolution). but still, current gen consoles aren't all that far behind, i mean, look at doom 3 on xbox, even though i don't really like that game, I felt like my play experience with it on xbox was a much better one overall, for a fraction of the price, you get 90% of the graphics, and framerate. and look at other games, metal gear solid 2 for instance, heh. that game still looks damn good, and it runs flawless on a ps2, when it hit pc, you had to have top of the line stuff to get it to be that smooth. i'd say only last year did PC games really start to pull away in terms of overall graphics quality (minus resolution). consoles have a lot more life than some people give them credit for, especially this next gen, where consoles will have high resolution, sure, still not as high as top top end PCs, but it is HD. and sure, PCs will eventually pull away again, but after 3 hardware refreshes which equals thousands of dollars later, whereas consoles are one set of hardware, very well priced, that is designed to be completely efficient, thus giving it huge longevity over pc hardware, plus, consoles get even better with age, because developers learn how to squeeze more and more and more out of them. I'm sorry but your PC is not going to be the same as it is now 4 years from now, 4 years from now your 7800gtx is gonna be handed down to your grandma, replaced with something else probably a couple of times, just to keep up, let alone eclipse that playstation 3 that just seems to never cease to get better and better. shit, they are doing half life 2 on a xbox now! and so far, it looks just as good as a pc thats also running a geforce3 graphics card, and it'll probably run quite smooth in the end. for a pc version of a geforce 3 to run half life 2, you'd need an athlon 64 backin that baby, but if you were using a pentium 3 1ghz, from back when the geforce 3 launched, you'd be watching a slide show. ok, ok, i'll stop now, sorry, its long and jumps around, but you get the picture, don't get me wrong, i don't hate PCs, or gaming on one, but i'm finding it harder and harder to justify it, especially if i can start using a mouse and keyboard for the console games that'll benefit from it, have better, or atleast just as good of graphics, for much cheaper. and the only reason i pc game now is because of the exclusives i cant get on consoles, which even that seems to be changing....ok, done for reals.
MasterShredder
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2002
- Messages
- 2,998
Sorry, but again, i'll believe it when I see it. Anyone wanna tell me how they pulled off that running in real time, yet they don't even have a working dev kit that anyone's seen? The xbox 360 real time graphics were pretty chuggy considering they were running on some mac G5's and until about a few weeks ago, they didnt have dev kits.. and the 360 is coming out quite soon. I highly doubt these are realtime PS3 graphics.
Plus let's look at previous consoles. From NES to SNES was pretty good, but not a HUUUGE jump. Same with PSX and PS2... PS2 games look awful IMO.. blocky, shitty textures etc. There's no way in hell they could jump from ugly, washed out, bland graphics to near movie quality real time graphics in such a short time. There's gotta be an inbetween system before that happens.
The other thing I don't buy are sony's bullshit statements and propaganda. Like them saying that those killzone CG renders were real time and that the Xbox 360 is competing with the PS2, not the PS3... just bullshit like that which insults our intelligence.
Like i said before, I'll believe it when i see it, but I assure you games will not look like that... a cutscene is one thing, but even if MGS lookss pretty, it's still the same fixed camera angle pointing at Snake's foot while you try to get away from 3 guys with exclamation marks coming out of their heads...
Plus let's look at previous consoles. From NES to SNES was pretty good, but not a HUUUGE jump. Same with PSX and PS2... PS2 games look awful IMO.. blocky, shitty textures etc. There's no way in hell they could jump from ugly, washed out, bland graphics to near movie quality real time graphics in such a short time. There's gotta be an inbetween system before that happens.
The other thing I don't buy are sony's bullshit statements and propaganda. Like them saying that those killzone CG renders were real time and that the Xbox 360 is competing with the PS2, not the PS3... just bullshit like that which insults our intelligence.
Like i said before, I'll believe it when i see it, but I assure you games will not look like that... a cutscene is one thing, but even if MGS lookss pretty, it's still the same fixed camera angle pointing at Snake's foot while you try to get away from 3 guys with exclamation marks coming out of their heads...
MasterShredder said:
Simple: the dev kits were sent out months ago. Prior to that, some developers had begun their games by developing the concepts and basic gameplay, then simply moving what they had to the PS3 as the opportunity presented itself. It's a popular method: Epic has had UT2K7's gameplay running for months: they didn't wait for the art or tech to finalize.
DarkSeraphim
Limp Gawd
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- 279
Terpfen said:
Metal Gear Solid 2
The beginning of the game is CG. The action sequence where he is walking across the bridge is CG. The sequence where he rappels down is CG. It turns to in-game engine once he reaches the ship.
I believe there is CG when Snake is looking down from a helicopter at the Big Shell, but it's been a while since I've played it.
DarkSeraphim
Limp Gawd
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What part of "You're Wrong" don't you understand?
The fact that everyone else is saying it doesn't make it true. Try playing the games before you spout off like that.
The fact that everyone else is saying it doesn't make it true. Try playing the games before you spout off like that.
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- 5,479
Yea, it's in-game. I've played the PS2 and the PC version with a GF3, and believe me; it's in-game. They just used an extreme amount of motion blur and haze effects.
DarkSeraphim
Limp Gawd
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I'm sorry, but you're blind if you can't tell the difference between the bridge scene and the sequence where he begins to talk on the codec.
I can see further clarification is necessary.
The bridge scene IS a pre-rendered FMV, but it was rendered by the game engine. In other words, instead of building the entire animated sequence in Maya or whatever, they animated that scene using the MGS2 gameplay engine and output the result to a video file, which was used for the game intro.
I can think of a couple obvious reasons for doing this. First, doing this would allow the animators to squeeze some more detail into the scene in the form of higher poly counts and more dense particle effects. Second, this being the intro video, they probably wanted to avoid a load time right before it; presenting the sequence in real-time with the engine would have required loading all of the meshes and textures used. Lastly, rendering the scene to video allowed them to use Dolby Digital 5.1 sound.
In other words, the intro video DOES use the in-game engine, but it is not being rendered in real-time. It was rendered to video and played back. Nearly all of the cutscenes through the rest of the game ARE rendered in-game in real-time, however.
The bridge scene IS a pre-rendered FMV, but it was rendered by the game engine. In other words, instead of building the entire animated sequence in Maya or whatever, they animated that scene using the MGS2 gameplay engine and output the result to a video file, which was used for the game intro.
I can think of a couple obvious reasons for doing this. First, doing this would allow the animators to squeeze some more detail into the scene in the form of higher poly counts and more dense particle effects. Second, this being the intro video, they probably wanted to avoid a load time right before it; presenting the sequence in real-time with the engine would have required loading all of the meshes and textures used. Lastly, rendering the scene to video allowed them to use Dolby Digital 5.1 sound.
In other words, the intro video DOES use the in-game engine, but it is not being rendered in real-time. It was rendered to video and played back. Nearly all of the cutscenes through the rest of the game ARE rendered in-game in real-time, however.
Circuitbreaker8
Supreme [H]ardness
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I love these threads
Rehevkor, No it was rendered in real-time, there is loading, its just hidden behind the dialog and black screen with subtitles.... They do this also in the intro to MGS3. There is no prerendered scenes, the only non real-time rendered scenes are when they throw in those real life videos and pictures throughout the story.
Heck test it out yourself by pressing R1 during it, you will zoom in...
Heck test it out yourself by pressing R1 during it, you will zoom in...
I dont think alot of you understand what pre-rendered means. Even if its using the in game engine it is still pre-rendered in some of those scenes. If you would understand how the PS2 used DD5.1 back in the day of MGS2 you would understand that certain scenes are simply a pre-rendered VIDEO that is not REAL TIME calculations that the PS2 has to do.
Edit: just to make it clear I am not knockin the MGS series whatsoever. I LOVE the games. I cannot wait for MGS4 on the PS3. However, I do realize that the game play will NOT look as good as the MOVIE (ie not in game calculations/renderings) that is the trailer we are talking about. It will look good....just not that good, I am realistic.
Edit: just to make it clear I am not knockin the MGS series whatsoever. I LOVE the games. I cannot wait for MGS4 on the PS3. However, I do realize that the game play will NOT look as good as the MOVIE (ie not in game calculations/renderings) that is the trailer we are talking about. It will look good....just not that good, I am realistic.
Thats great and all but still does not mean the gameplay will look like that. Any 3d artist worth his ass can create a scene and then manipulate it in engine. I fail to believe that in that scene there is enemy AI and everything else going on as it would be during gameplay. There is no doubt PS3 is powerful and will create some exciting games but a first gen game will not look just like the trailer of MGS4 and play like it.
quiksilverx181
2[H]4U
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that game made me COMPLETELY speechless... i was just floored by that video, OMG!!! MGS series has been the only series in which i actually COMPLETE the games! I CANT WAITT!!!!!
CrimandEvil
Dick with a heart of gold
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OwnedDemonNite said:
Who in their right mind wouldn't believe that Sony would get Kojima one of the first dev kits?
After watching the video....that does not show one thing that proves thats what the gameplay will look like. Simply showing us how you can move a camera and change shadows now means that is realistic graphics for gameplay? I would like it to be true.....I am just a realist and not a phanboi. I do love the series and Sony though. Flame on....
lets not sidetrack here...not pointing any fingers but i think the argument was and still is (mainly) that "some" could not believe that the trailer was rendered in real time i.e realtime calculations ... be it gameplay or not. Some ppl think its streaming video like mpeg etc...
ps - I personally believe the game will look like that judging from playing the whole series, Kojima tends to use the same models for the game and movie scenes. (u can also test this in the theatre mode where u can swap out the chracters with another for some funny scenes)
jdunner3 - i totally see what u are trying to say and I think some ppl are misunderstanding a few things that u are trying to say. I think the best way to sum it up is...
Is it video? i.e streaming mpeg? NO
Is it real time? i.e rendered using the hardware and doing real time calculations on the light/shadows/effects? YES
will the gameplay look the same? YES and NO (like i mentioned already, MGS2 and 3 used the exact same models but less "special" effects were in place...but probably coz it was uneeded)
the bottom line is that the PS3 is powerful...and this is what some ppl cannot believe
ps - I personally believe the game will look like that judging from playing the whole series, Kojima tends to use the same models for the game and movie scenes. (u can also test this in the theatre mode where u can swap out the chracters with another for some funny scenes)
jdunner3 - i totally see what u are trying to say and I think some ppl are misunderstanding a few things that u are trying to say. I think the best way to sum it up is...
Is it video? i.e streaming mpeg? NO
Is it real time? i.e rendered using the hardware and doing real time calculations on the light/shadows/effects? YES
will the gameplay look the same? YES and NO (like i mentioned already, MGS2 and 3 used the exact same models but less "special" effects were in place...but probably coz it was uneeded)
the bottom line is that the PS3 is powerful...and this is what some ppl cannot believe
Good post demonnite. I do think the models etc will look that good in game but just cant see the dust particles etc being as cinematic as they were in the video. I would love it if the game actually looked/felt as the video did. I am buyin a PS3, nothin can change my mind on that....I just am not fallin for another one of these company's showin us some juiced up videos before games are actually released. I have been burned by that in the past with other launches.
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the in game will look that good, it just won't have the same "feel" or seem as cinematic as the "cinemas" or "videos because you can't exactly play a game while using cinematic camera angles and in camera effects. heh.
Kevin Lowe
Gawd
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I'll agree with demonnite, but with one caveat: yes, the PS3 is powerful enough to do that. My guess is, so is the X360. Hell, probably so is the PC, on high-end hardware. Kojima's not going to screw up his reputation on a Killzone-style stunt (especially after he just repaired all the damage done to it by MGS2).
Next-gen poly counts are just going to be unreal (the Brooklyn Bridge in PGR3, for example, is around 1 million polys, though I'm not sure if that's the pre- or post-normal map model) and normal mapping is just going to make that look even better (hopefully with more accurate shaders to eliminate the plasticy look that lesman noted). I expect we'll have similar excellent graphics from both X360 and PS3.
Next-gen poly counts are just going to be unreal (the Brooklyn Bridge in PGR3, for example, is around 1 million polys, though I'm not sure if that's the pre- or post-normal map model) and normal mapping is just going to make that look even better (hopefully with more accurate shaders to eliminate the plasticy look that lesman noted). I expect we'll have similar excellent graphics from both X360 and PS3.