Men On The Internet Don’t Believe Sexism Is A Problem In Science

The post above me:

230114_908223010.png
 
dandragonrage said:
The world does not and cannot survive on "good feelings."
Click to expand...
WHAT?! WHAT?! WHAT?! WHAT?! WHAT?!

Have I been deceived?!

dandragonrage said:
However, none of this has anything to do with gender.
Click to expand...

That's the thing, doesn't it? At least in the science sexism thing. Women just aren't, as often, inclined to those types of things. And since it's rarer... lots of men welcome the sight of a woman who is into it.

Am I off the topic? I just sort of skipped to the end, and found you guys talking about no child left behind.
 
lilbabycat i can tell you that in my country we have roughly the same distribution, which is why i would find it interesting to know if it is a genetic predisposition or socio-cultural divide.

A REAL proper study would also stop quite a bit of BS (nope i'm not talking about you at all).
 
Revdarian said:
A REAL proper study would also stop quite a bit of BS (nope i'm not talking about you at all).
Click to expand...

I'm curious where you think the current state of the studies are inadequate here.

Do you feel Toy Preference is an inadequate indicator that there are biologically driven preference differences between males and females, or is there something specific in the linked studies you find lacking?

(re-quoted argument with links for your convenience)

On the other hand, I also think people who neglect biological causes are doing the issue a disservice. Did you know that young monkeys express pretty much exactly the same gendered toy preferences as human children? Rhesus monkeys, vervet monkeys, pretty much whatever species of monkeys you try it on, the male monkeys enjoy wheeled toys more and the female monkeys plush toys more. The word reviewers use to describe the magnitude of the result is “overwhelming”. When intersex children are raised as other than their biological gender, their toy preference and behavior are consistently that associated with their biological gender and not the gender they are being raised as, even when they themselves are unaware their biological gender is different. This occurs even when parents reinforce them more for playing with their gender-being-raised-as toys. You can even successfully correlate the degree of this with the precise amount of androgen they get in the womb, and if you experimentally manipulate the amount of hormones monkeys receive in the womb, their gendered play will change accordingly. 2D:4D ratio, a level of how much testosterone is released during a crucial developmental period, accurately predicts scores both on a UK test of mathematical ability at age seven and the SATs in high school.
Click to expand...
 
I'm curious why anyone thinks any sort of study is necessary to determine that women, at least in countries like the US, are free to go into whatever goddamn field they want to. Period.
 
What the hell companies did they send these resume's too? Serious wtf?

If anything the opposite exist where I work. You are more likely to get the job as a female because we wish to encourage diversity. But finding women willing to work in the engineering field is still difficult.
 
dandragonrage said:
I'm curious why anyone thinks any sort of study is necessary to determine that women, at least in countries like the US, are free to go into whatever goddamn field they want to. Period.
Click to expand...

I think the argument would be that while there is nothing stopping them legally or physically that there are a series of discouragements over their entire development that make this transition difficult.

Everything from parents pre-dispositioned to subconsciously encouraging boys to get into tech and girls to get into other things, to toys like the talking barbie who would say stuff like "math is hard, let's go shopping", to the cultural expectations in middle and high school when hormones are raging that boys are supposed to be better in these fields, and girls dumb themselves down intentionally to seem more appealing to boys, subconscious bias on the part of teachers pushing boys harder in the maths and sciences, and then just the simple desire to be among people like yourself, and thus finding it discouraging to get into a field where you are significantly outnumbered by men/boys (depending on age) as well as work cultures that encourage vigorous loud debate over the correct decisions (something men are often more inclined towards) instead of reasoned calm consensus seeking and conversation (something that women are often more inclined towards) and that's before we even mention discouraging harassment.

I tend to think biological causes outweigh the above by orders of magnitude, but it is a legitimate gripe I suppose. Not that society or people are necessarily intentionally biased and trying to harm or stop women from succeeding, but that there are many subconscious cultural expectations that systemically get in the way, having a tiny impact in and of themselves, but when added together over years of development and education have the effect of driving women in certain directions.

That is at least what I have gathered from my exposure to these arguments.
 
Zarathustra[H];1041363620 said:
I think the argument would be that while there is nothing stopping them legally or physically that there are a series of discouragements over their entire development that make this transition difficult.

Everything from parents pre-dispositioned to subconsciously encouraging boys to get into tech and girls to get into other things, to toys like the talking barbie who would say stuff like "math is hard, let's go shopping", to the cultural expectations in middle and high school when hormones are raging that boys are supposed to be better in these fields, and girls dumb themselves down intentionally to seem more appealing to boys, subconscious bias on the part of teachers pushing boys harder in the maths and sciences, and then just the simple desire to be among people like yourself, and thus finding it discouraging to get into a field where you are significantly outnumbered by men/boys (depending on age) as well as work cultures that encourage vigorous loud debate over the correct decisions (something men are often more inclined towards) instead of reasoned calm consensus seeking and conversation (something that women are often more inclined towards) and that's before we even mention discouraging harassment.
Click to expand...

Studies aren't needed for this. You don't always need to study something when it is right in front of your fucking face. Yeah, you're right, though. There are some cultural traditions that do discourage women from doing these things, though I wasn't aware of that Barbie thing you mentioned. That's pretty ridiculous. However, government studies, government regulations and all that stuff are not necessary or helpful. The only way to fix that problem is for parents to not buy their children such a toy. And the only way for women to get past this problem is to decide to get past this problem. I know lots of women who surpassed that. Culturally, men are more likely to be jocks, and jocks often (not always) neglect studying in favor of sports like football. Do we need to do studies on men who go into sports rather than technology? Do we need "diversity initiatives" to "convert" those jocks into working in industries that we "approve"?

Companies partnering with hate groups like Intel's new partnership with Feminist Frequency (which is a hate group -- look up some of the shit they've said) aren't going to solve this problem. At all. Not in the slightest.

Careers are not generally advertised as being gender-specific, and just about all of them that are are female-oriented. As previously mentioned (maybe by you?), fashion is one such thing. Also as previously mentioned by several people, nursing. And many others. As such, these companies cannot offer anything meaningful to change society.

The only people that can fix this problem are parents and girls/women themselves. Government can't fix it. Intel can't fix it. Feminist Frequency can only make it worse.
 
Zarathustra[H];1041363620 said:
"Everything from parents pre-dispositioned to subconsciously encouraging boys to get into tech and girls to get into other things, to toys like the talking barbie who would say stuff like "math is hard, let's go shopping", to the cultural expectations in middle and high school when hormones are raging that boys are supposed to be better in these fields, and girls dumb themselves down intentionally to seem more appealing to boys, subconscious bias on the part of teachers pushing boys harder in the maths and sciences, and then just the simple desire to be among people like yourself, and thus finding it discouraging to get into a field where you are significantly outnumbered by men/boys (depending on age) as well as work cultures that encourage vigorous loud debate over the correct decisions (something men are often more inclined towards) instead of reasoned calm consensus seeking and conversation (something that women are often more inclined towards) and that's before we even mention discouraging harassment."
Click to expand...

This is partially true. It's part nurture and part nature.

There have been numerous and extensive studies of children where parents were told to give the child two types of toys to choose from. One traditionally boy oriented. (Cars, trucks, trains, GI Joes, etc) and other traditionally girl orients (cooking sets, dishes, dolls) and neutral items (like balls, yo yo's etc) They parents were told not to interfere with choices, and to isolate children from TV programming and could only read specific gender neutral books.

The studies found that boys naturally gravitate to "things" (ie: Grabbing and playing with physical objects) while girls gravitate toward "situations" (ie: Playing house) It's a way the brain is wired based on gender.

But parents and peers were found to have a large influence. Boys would be complemented on athletic ability, and handiness (ie: Math, engineer, sciences, mechanics etc...) while girls would be complemented on Style, looks, creativity and arts.

Parents were more likely to engage boys in physical activity also.

Studies conclude that you should encourage children regardless of sex of their achievements. And that you should introduce to them a large variety of activities to let them determine what they like. However nature will still influence girls to be in less technical fields. (This however is changing as more women are graduating then men from colleges)
 
Another option might be that if the American women are unwilling to move into these professions we expand the H1B visa program to allow companies to fill these diversity positions with women from outside the USA (like we did when there was a nursing shortage in the 90's) ... I have known many talented women engineers and managers from Asian countries and it would be easier for them to succeed in those roles in this country than in their own sometimes ... bottom line is that business needs workers and if the USA can't produce them (or is unwilling to) then we should bring them in from outside
 
kbrickley said:
Another option might be that if the American women are unwilling to move into these professions we expand the H1B visa program to allow companies to fill these diversity positions with women from outside the USA (like we did when there was a nursing shortage in the 90's) ... I have known many talented women engineers and managers from Asian countries and it would be easier for them to succeed in those roles in this country than in their own sometimes ... bottom line is that business needs workers and if the USA can't produce them (or is unwilling to) then we should bring them in from outside
Click to expand...

Nursing shortage? Either stop having as many babies or make sure that men get the hormonal and genetic stuff they need to make milk and the nursing problem will pretty much fix itself as long as you can get guys to start plucking all that nipple hair.
 
kbrickley said:
Another option might be that if the American women are unwilling to move into these professions we expand the H1B visa program to allow companies to fill these diversity positions with women from outside the USA (like we did when there was a nursing shortage in the 90's) ... I have known many talented women engineers and managers from Asian countries and it would be easier for them to succeed in those roles in this country than in their own sometimes ... bottom line is that business needs workers and if the USA can't produce them (or is unwilling to) then we should bring them in from outside
Click to expand...

Or, ya know, just accept that there's not going to be as many women in certain fields. Giving American jobs to foreigners isn't the right answer to any problem.
 
kbrickley said:
Another option might be that if the American women are unwilling to move into these professions we expand the H1B visa program to allow companies to fill these diversity positions with women from outside the USA (like we did when there was a nursing shortage in the 90's)...
Click to expand...

We didn't import male nurses to make up for the gender imbalance in the nursing profession. Nurses are still 90% female. Should we have only imported male nurses to balance the gender difference?

Same with teachers. Most public school teachers are female. I don't hear you saying we should import male teachers to balance the gender ratio in that profession.
 
Parja said:
Giving American jobs to foreigners isn't the right answer to any problem.
Click to expand...
Sure it does:
"How do I get more voters as a democrat?"
"How do I pay employees less, with more productivity, and get the government to throw a tax break in with it?"
 
Zarathustra, do you realize that i'm the guy that brought that blog post to HardOCP?

... Look at my post history, realize that part...


Do you think that i am calling those studies wrong?


<.<

>.>

What i don't consider a real proper study is the BS like the original link, and actually an in depth study should go a bit beyond the part of the Rhessus monkeys showing indeed different predisposition.
 
An in depth study in this very specific case would be about us human beings, there is already the link in nature, ok, then let's sit down and do a through exploration on us through different cultures => i already said multiple times that i am not from USA and yet in my country the behavior is the same => at least to me that is a red flag, as my country's culture is different but still that same behavior seems to show up...

In case the obvious hint hasn't dropped what i am trying to say is that i'm personally on the side of "it is genetic mostly", my psychology friends think that it does have a nice potential but they wouldn't venture nothing until a "proper study" is done (but still note that the statistical data seems to point that way).

^^ Hit enter too fast, posted and couldnt edit.
 
CreepyUncleGoogle said:
Nursing shortage? Either stop having as many babies or make sure that men get the hormonal and genetic stuff they need to make milk and the nursing problem will pretty much fix itself as long as you can get guys to start plucking all that nipple hair.
Click to expand...

Do what?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top