M3A2 Beta Project: Discontinued

[CMadki4]

any chance of short depth version of this case? for folks with shorter card these and need a smaller footprint?

Yes, but see Chime's comments below. He's dead on.

I've been messing around trying to design something like this on paper for a while, and the issue I keep running into is the power supply. You can't really shorten the case without putting the PSU over the motherboard or going with something like the PicoPSU, which presents its own problems. So you either end up with a tiny cube style case (which I wouldn't mind) or having to come up with an external power brick + PicoPSU that can supply 300+ watts.

you could try using 1u powersupplies. like these

One of my unwritten underlying goals is to not require anything too unconventional that would limit a customer's hardware selection. And the experience I've had with 1U PSUs is they are noisy. My 500W shuttle power supply (though not 1U) really wound up during gaming with it's little tiny fans.

I wouldn't mind a small case that used a 200W AC-DC PSU with the 192Watt power brick. They make those small PSU boards that are better than the PICO PSUs. Especially with haswell around the corner and the way GPU power reqs are dropping it might be a good time to design a quality low powered case. I mean even right now with such a case you could do a 3750 and a 7770 which is still really powerful.

This is a real possibility. I'll have to look into those small PSU boards + power brick. Any links/suggestions?

Even though I just bought a Fractal Design Node 304, THIS is the case I've been looking for. Can't wait to see how things progress. Great work!

Thank you!

 

[geostation]

Yes, but see Chime's comments below. He's dead on.
One of my unwritten underlying goals is to not require anything too unconventional that would limit a customer's hardware selection. And the experience I've had with 1U PSUs is they are noisy. My 500W shuttle power supply (though not 1U) really wound up during gaming with it's little tiny fans.

I'm not saying change current one but rather asking you to release a "mini" version later for folks with shorter cards (revodrive, pcie ssds, video capture cards, audiophile soundcards) or no cards and such
There is a pretty decent collection of 1U server PSU's on both newegg and amazon. Some of them could be tested and supplied and supplied along with case too

 

[CMadki4]

I'm not saying change current one but rather asking you to release a "mini" version later for folks with shorter cards (revodrive, pcie ssds, video capture cards, audiophile soundcards) or no cards and such
There is a pretty decent collection of 1U server PSU's on both newegg and amazon. Some of them could be tested and supplied and supplied along with case too

Sure, a mini version is a real possibility.

 

[Drown Babies]

From what I see this looks like a more squared off version of the Lian-Li PCQ12. The height of that case is 88mm, and yours is 89mm (3.5"). So I imagine they should have comparable CPU cooling restrictions. The PSU will probably be in a similar situation as well.

I have that case, modified like this guy did, with a hole cut out in the back for a half-height 7750.

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1699955

You can see how the PSU there has no air intake directly adjacent to it, but in my experience it works perfectly fine. It's a 300W PSU, and even with the 7750 OC'd I never hear much from that fan.

As for the CPU, as someone mentioned, a slim 120mm fan works well in this case. They are a bit hard to find, especially PWM versions, but they work with a number of heatsinks (I use the Samuel 17) and, for me at least, provide a basically silent CPU cooler. These aren't really ideal conditions for big CPU overclocks so I wouldn't be too worried about CPU cooling solutions. And as you can see, the relatively small ventilation holes don't even line up directly over the CPU, so there is definitely room for improvement.

You don't have any dedicated exhaust fans, but I think a blower fan on the GPU and the PSU fan would be enough for this case.

This definitely looks interesting, and this is really what I was looking for when I settled for the PC-Q12. An OC'd 7750 is surprisingly powerful, but you can only expect so much out of a single-slot, half-height card. So I'll be interested to see how this turns out.

I do have one question though. You mentioned a 3.5" HDD, but I don't see space for that, where were you planning on mounting one of those?

 

[CMadki4]

...snip...

You can see how the PSU there has no air intake directly adjacent to it, but in my experience it works perfectly fine. It's a 300W PSU, and even with the 7750 OC'd I never hear much from that fan.

That's my thinking. Just let the PSU draw air from inside the case and exhaust out the side. If it proves to be too much on a 450W PSU then I'll redesign with a PSU intake vent.

...snip...
And as you can see, the relatively small ventilation holes don't even line up directly over the CPU, so there is definitely room for improvement.

Though socket locations on motherboard somewhat vary from model to model, it should be possible to get the vent in the sweet spot align with most.

...snip...
You mentioned a 3.5" HDD, but I don't see space for that, where were you planning on mounting one of those?

I'm going to try to squeeze one in under the SSDs. If not then I'll make accommodations for one in lieu of the optical.

 

[illli]

if there is no horizontal space, would there be room to mount a 3.5 in a vertical position?

 

[CMadki4]

if there is no horizontal space, would there be room to mount a 3.5 in a vertical position?

If my vertical you mean turn it on it's side, then a 3.5" HDD is actually wider than the case itself.

Here's a look at the top cover. Basically a 120mm vent with mounting holes for a 120mm fan.

And this is the power supply shroud I was talking about. It ducts all the exhaust straight out the side of the case.

You can also get an idea of the drive bracket I'm working on. This is actually one of the trickier parts to figure how to mount so that it's removable and still be able to support enough drive configurations.

I'm working on getting enough space between the bottom of that drive bracket and the GPU to fit a 3.5" HDD. I've got 18mm right now, but may have 10mm to work with in head room above the SSDs.

 

[Chime]

This is a real possibility. I'll have to look into those small PSU boards + power brick. Any links/suggestions?

Mini-Box.com has a nice selection of parts. Comparison chart here. Their DCDC-USB-200, which isn't on that chart, is interesting to me as a dedicated GPU supply. It can provide 12A@12V, with a peak of 15A. It also will accept a wide range of input voltage, so you could use the 330w power brick from the X51, the DCDC-USB-200 for the GPU, and a second power board for the CPU/motherboard. Granted, this is complicated and expensive (probably ~$250 for everything), but if you're dead set on going smaller, something like this might be your only option.

 

[illli]

i see. i thought 3.5in hard drive was.. 3.5 inches
but now that i looked i see it is actually 4 inches

 

[Drown Babies]

Another thing to consider is that the area around the drives could have a lot of dead air space. For SSDs it might not matter so much, but for an HDD it could be a problem, especially being right behind the GPU. Maybe increasing the length of the vents or adding a horizontal gap on that side would help.

 

[CMadki4]

Another thing to consider is that the area around the drives could have a lot of dead air space. For SSDs it might not matter so much, but for an HDD it could be a problem, especially being right behind the GPU. Maybe increasing the length of the vents or adding a horizontal gap on that side would help.

I've been considering that dead air space actually. On a previous case build "Asimov" I actually had a 3.5" HDD completely enclosed and about 20mm from the power supply. I showed normal temperatures on it for the most post.

I would love to fit a chassis fan in somewhere with out enlarging the case. Would an inboard fan help anything (as opposed to an outboard mounted one with direct access to the outside of the case)?

 

[Chime]

IMO, and I know not everyone feels the same, a 3.5" HD and an ODD are luxuries. For a case like this, I'd rather use a combination of Msata and 2.5" HDs to keep the size to a minimum. I've got an external ODD for the 3 times a year I need one

Edit: How about something like this as an option? Far too few HTPC cases come with IR receivers.

 

[Drown Babies]

I've been considering that dead air space actually. On a previous case build "Asimov" I actually had a 3.5" HDD completely enclosed and about 20mm from the power supply. I showed normal temperatures on it for the most post.

I would love to fit a chassis fan in somewhere with out enlarging the case. Would an inboard fan help anything (as opposed to an outboard mounted one with direct access to the outside of the case)?

I don't know how readily available they are, but a small, low RPM blower type fan might help a lot just to ensure that air is moving in that area above the GPU. That seems like the only place where there might not be any airflow (and below the MB I guess). I guess you would just need to try out a few different configurations and see what works.

I have an external Rosewill HDD enclosure that can get a little hot without a fan. It's not a problem with the WD Red drive that I have now (these drives are great, and absurdly quiet too), but a regular drive needs the little slim 80mm fan turned on. It's quiet and seems to do a good enough job of circulating the air so that the drive (I tried with an old WD Black) never gets above 40-45 C. I'm not sure if you could fit a fan like that in somewhere, but it could be enough if a blower fan doesn't work.

 

[CMadki4]

IMO, and I know not everyone feels the same, a 3.5" HD and an ODD are luxuries. For a case like this, I'd rather use a combination of Msata and 2.5" HDs to keep the size to a minimum. I've got an external ODD for the 3 times a year I need one

Edit: How about something like this as an option? Far too few HTPC cases come with IR receivers.

Ah, good call on the IR receiver. Sure, that could easily be an option. I actually have one still BNIB that I could try out.

 

[CMadki4]

Here is the 3.5" HDD underneath the optical drive. This limits the GPU length to 7.5" and would likely interfere with cables from the PSU (or at least make them a pain to route).

And here is the one I prefer so far. I've shifted the entire drive bracket down 15mm, moved the SSDs on top of the ODD and the 3.5" HDD on top of the bracket near the rear of the case. And if you opt for no 3.5" HDD you've got 2 more 2.5" SSD/HDD spots open.

 

[Chime]

That looks great. Any idea on CPU cooler clearance?

 

[CMadki4]

That looks great. Any idea on CPU cooler clearance?

Like DB observed, it will likely be similar to that of the PCQ12 since they are similar in width. I'll confirm this as I model the total assembly further.

 

[Drown Babies]

That looks great. Any idea on CPU cooler clearance?

The PCQ-12 (which is 88mm high, about the same as this case) has an official clearance of 55mm, that's for the fan and heatsink. There is about 10-12mm of space above that though, between the case and the fan. I have a Samuel 17 (45mm high) with a 12mm slim 120mm fan, so I have about 10mm clearance, which seems to be enough for good cooling. If those ventilation holes over the CPU area make it on to the final design then I would expect that even less clearance wouldn't cause problems.

The other issue is the stand-off height. On the PCQ-12 they are fairly long, my guess is 10-13mm off the top of my head. This is nice for routing cables under the MB, but they could be made shorter to give better clearance for the CPU cooler.

 

[Chime]

Thanks for the info guys, much appreciated.

 

[Chime]

Found a thread on the anandtech forums for anyone interested in buying a complete Alienware X51 PSU setup for SFF cases. A quick google search points to this being powerful enough to support a GTX 670 in the X51, though it'll run you about $190 before tax/shipping for the components necessary.

 

[pablopicasso]

No gpu support?

 

[CMadki4]

Ouch, that PSU is painfully expensive! Hence why I like sticking with the more conventional components

 

[Chime]

Yeah, as much as I'd love to shrink things even further, you're looking at $350-450 just for a case and PSU. A bit extreme lol.

BTW, what software are you using to do these renders? I'm old fashioned and have been hand sketching all mine lol.

 

[Chime]

No gpu support?

If this is in reference to Cmad's design, it has support for GPUs up to 12.25" in length.

 

[CMadki4]

No gpu support?

I'm assuming you're referring to the X51 power supply? If referring to the case, then it supports 12.25" graphics cards.

BTW, what software are you using to do these renders? I'm old fashioned and have been hand sketching all mine lol.

Just SolidWorks at this point. I'm turn to better rendering software as my design is finalized.

If this is in reference to Cmad's design, it has support for GPUs up to 12.25" in length.

What he said ^^^

 

[CMadki4]

Here's a rough look at the M3A2 case in the upright position. The feet are 1/4" machined aluminum bar. I think they could be a little shorter. They might be sticking out a little too far. But anyways, just a glimpse at the case standing up, rather than down in the traditional HTPC stance.

 

[ekuest]

how do you do renders in solidworks? ive always just taken screenshots of different views since i was too lazy to look it up.

 

[Drown Babies]

I definitely like the upright orientation. How far out do those supports come, about 1"? I think 3/4 or 2/3" might be okay. A fully loaded case would be fairly heavy, and shouldn't be too wobbly.

 

[CMadki4]

how do you do renders in solidworks? ive always just taken screenshots of different views since i was too lazy to look it up.

Photoview360 add on. Does a decent job. Octane is another that Necere turned me on to.

I definitely like the upright orientation. How far out do those supports come, about 1"? I think 3/4 or 2/3" might be okay. A fully loaded case would be fairly heavy, and shouldn't be too wobbly.

Right now they stick out just under 30mm. I think 20mm would be sufficient. With the power supply and motherboard near the top you do want a good amount of support to keep it from tipping.

Edit: And here's a new rendering of the case vertical and horizontal with the standard coke can size reference. Personally I like it in either orientation. It's nice to have the choice. (also updated the OP with this rendering since it sort of captures the overall concept)

 

[CMadki4]

The Indiegogo crowd funding campaign is live! Please, help get the M3A2 Beta project off the ground! Go to Indiegogo and search "m3a2".

Some materials, parts, tooling and equipment have been ordered, but I still need your help to make these first 10 machine aluminum cases. Eight (8) of the 10 cases will be awarded to 8 willing and able beta testers to put it through paces.

Check it out and please contribute and keep the conversation kicking here! Thank you!

 

[Chime]

Patiently awaiting May

 

[Chime]

Hey DB, which slim 120mm fan did you end up going with in your PCQ12?

 

[ellroy80]

Sorry if I missed this, but what's the maximum CPU cooler height?

 

[Chime]

The PCQ-12 (which is 88mm high, about the same as this case) has an official clearance of 55mm, that's for the fan and heatsink. There is about 10-12mm of space above that though, between the case and the fan. I have a Samuel 17 (45mm high) with a 12mm slim 120mm fan, so I have about 10mm clearance, which seems to be enough for good cooling. If those ventilation holes over the CPU area make it on to the final design then I would expect that even less clearance wouldn't cause problems.

The other issue is the stand-off height. On the PCQ-12 they are fairly long, my guess is 10-13mm off the top of my head. This is nice for routing cables under the MB, but they could be made shorter to give better clearance for the CPU cooler.
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Info courtesy of Drown Babies

 

[MrGuvernment]

my worry is the amount of heat that comes off the back of some video cards... that cuold be alot of heat into the SSDs

 

[CMadki4]

Patiently awaiting May

Hey thanks! You get serial number 0002! Congrats!

my worry is the amount of heat that comes off the back of some video cards... that cuold be alot of heat into the SSDs

I've considered that. And one thing I'm doing to combat the heat is isolating the drives from the GPU with an aluminum plate. This should help insulate them. Real world tests be needed to confirm this.

Sorry if I missed this, but what's the maximum CPU cooler height?

And for CPU height I'm shooting from around 68mm. I'll need my stand offs to confirm this, but that's maximum what it could be.

 

[Drown Babies]

Hey DB, which slim 120mm fan did you end up going with in your PCQ12?

I eventually found a Scythe 12mm thick 120mm PWM fan, but the only way I know of to get those is by buying a Shuriken 2 heatsink, or finding someone who is willing to part with one (I didn't have luck in the [H] forums, but I found one almost right away at the silentpcreview.com forum). The regular 3 pin ones can be found pretty easily, there are a few different versions with varying max RPMs. I have one of those too, but my MB doesn't support voltage control for fan speed regulation. As far as I know those are the only readily available slim 120mm fans.

They aren't great, I think their design is better suited to a case fan, but they aren't bad either. And below about 1000 RPM they are basically silent.

Sorry if I missed this, but what's the maximum CPU cooler height?

If those vent holes over the CPU end up in the final design I guess you could get the fan right up against the top of the case, or almost touching it. So, yeah, around 65-70mm sounds about right.

And I'm in for the Indiegogo campaign. I'm definitely looking forward to seeing this move ahead.

 

[CMadki4]

If those vent holes over the CPU end up in the final design I guess you could get the fan right up against the top of the case, or almost touching it. So, yeah, around 65-70mm sounds about right.

They'll be in there for sure. I think they'll really help keep things cool. Even if it doesn't line up perfectly, you can still mount a fan on the side panel and have it blow fresh external air straight on your CPU heat sink and RAM.

And I'm in for the Indiegogo campaign. I'm definitely looking forward to seeing this move ahead.

You are awesome! Serial number 0003 to you, my friend!

 

[Chime]

Thanks for the info DB. Found the 3 pin version of the Scythe here. I also found a 15mm thick 140mm fan by Prolimatech here. The extra 20mm of diameter would help to make sure the default fan location covers the CPU, as well as helping to cool the chipset, VRMs and RAM.

 

[CMadki4]

Thanks for the info DB. Found the 3 pin version of the Scythe here. I also found a 15mm thick 140mm fan by Prolimatech here. The extra 20mm of diameter would help to make sure the default fan location covers the CPU, as well as helping to cool the chipset, VRMs and RAM.

On that note, would you like to see a 140/120mm fan mount on the side panel? Of course both you linked, including the 140mm Prolimatech have a 120mm hole pattern (105 x 105).