• Some users have recently had their accounts hijacked. It seems that the now defunct EVGA forums might have compromised your password there and seems many are using the same PW here. We would suggest you UPDATE YOUR PASSWORD and TURN ON 2FA for your account here to further secure it. None of the compromised accounts had 2FA turned on.
    Once you have enabled 2FA, your account will be updated soon to show a badge, letting other members know that you use 2FA to protect your account. This should be beneficial for everyone that uses FSFT.

Linux: Pros and Cons

R

rkf76

Limp Gawd
Joined
Dec 3, 2005
Messages
173
I'm fascinated by Linux and am contemplating a Vista/Linux dual boot setup. I don't do gaming, just surf the net, multimedia stuff (digital pic editing, music, watch videos), and some word processing from time to time. The fact that Linux is free is the icing on the cake but I want to hear from those who have or do use it with the things they like and don't like about it.

Why do I want to use it? Truth be told, i'm curious about how good of an OS it is and I also like to be different. Not that many people use it, or even know about it, so I would love to have a good experience with it and spread the word cause I don't know about you guys but to me, free > *.

I read "30 days with Linux" and like the eye candy that's available for it as well, but I'd like to hear about the functionality of it from firsthand users.
 
Give it a whirl & see if it works for you.

If it's just a trial-run, you might consider setting up VMWare/VirtualPC and run it through that without having to repartition & set up dual-booting. You wouldn't get to play with some of the whiz-bang eye-candy OpenGL accelerated special effects but everything else should work just fine.
 
Grab yourself an Ubuntu Feisty Live CD. Start it up See what happens. Ubuntu has about the best hardware detection going as far as I can tell. Run it some. Surf the net...just remember it won't have flash and java enabled by default. Check out the package managers, spend some time at ubuntuforums.org. If it works for you, and you like it..its a one click install on the desktop. There are tons of live cd's out there. Try one..try a couple. You won't be disapointed.
 
Pros:
It's free. There are a shitload of things you can do with it and install with it if you take the time and effort to find out how to get everything working correctly together. You get more experience with another type of OS. You can change and edit damn near anything in the OS once you have enough experience. There are many different distros which may suit your needs better than others. It's just fun to mess around with something new, get it to work, break it and then fix it (personal opinion here). There is a lot of support and howtos out there if you do a little searching.

Cons:
There can be a steep learning curve especially if you've used Windows for most of your computer life. Newer hardware may not have drivers or good drivers so you can run into some trouble there. There may not be a package for your specific distro for an application or program you want to run. Either you have to do without it or you have to compile it from source. Configuration can be completely different than what you're used to as far as hardware goes. However, once you learn it, it's not that bad. You will run into some distros which have a better configuration setup.

Some of the pros can be cons and some of the cons can be pros. It changes from person to person. I've spent all weekend working on both my SUSE 10.2 installations. I have VMware installed on both systems. XP is running in VMware on the PIII 800 system as I have a couple programs I need to keep running but which don't need to be on a powerful box. It allowed me to remove it from a more powerful box that I want to mess around with a bit and the programs need 24/7 uptime. I have Ubuntu 7.04 installed under VMware on the rig in my sig just to mess around with it. I didn't like it enough to actually mess around with it when I had it part of a quad boot setup. This way I can keep my preferred SUSE 10.2 setup and mess with Ubuntu when I feel like it without having to reboot.

I have gotten to the point where I almost like doing command line installs with packages rather than through the package manager. Then again, SUSE's package manger is slow as hell and eats up resources like crazy. The package manager is good for searching to see if you already have access to the package. In which case, I'll install it through the package manager.

Basically, if you have an itch to try Linux, go for it. It sounds like it would serve your needs rather well. You will need to take your time to find non-Windows software to replace what you currently use and in most cases you will find what you are looking for. It may just take some time and effort to do so.

 
If you're not used to CLI, then the learning curve will be steep, as previously indicated. If you're really interested and have a laptop or another computer so you can google for fixes, then do it. My knowledge of Linux just scored me a sweet new job inside my company, so it was worth it for me. It's not an OS like you'd think of with Windows. It's more of a meta-OS, it can do anything, and there are a million ways to skin a cat; all of them fun ;-) Just google stuff and you'll learn what to look for.
 
Yeah, a point was made by another poster I should have mentioned. Make sure you have another system around you can use to browse the net to look for solutions to problems you will run into. It makes things a hell of a lot easier.

I might have given up on Linux if I didn't have two other computers to use to look for stuff when I screwed up my Linux install one way or another. And yes, it was my fault each and every time. In some cases I didn't look up the answers to my problem well enough and just reinstalled. However, I've gotten to the point where I really like my installation and won't do that anymore unless I really fubar something. I've had a host of problems I created (or the power going off and then back on created) this weekend. I spent a lot of time looking up solutions and a lot of time just experimenting with possible solutions on my own.

I have to say my favorite problem to figure out was after a forced reboot due to the power going out after I installed VMware. Neither one of my Linux machines could access the local network or the net. However, the WinXP install inside VMware had no trouble. It went along it's merry way on the local network and the internet. From that, I figured it was something I did while setting up VMware. I just had to do a reinstall of VMware with some different options and had everything running correctly again. It was a learning experience that I'm the better for.

Another thing to remember is that if you don't find the answer for what you are searching for, don't hesitate to ask questions. There are a lot of forums out there which are very friendly to noobs. Just do a search on the forum for your problem before you post. That's just courtesy, though. There are a lot of people here who are very good with Linux so it's not a problem asking here. It's unlikely I'd be able to answer much of anything as I'm a noob myself, but you never know.

 
Pros: Hundreds of little things. Compromises are made for geeks and not (or not just) the general public.

An example of the little things I like, and a compromise that is favorable for geeks, is in Konqueror (KDE's file manager) is a button to display the current directory and sub-directions graphically by size. With just a press of that button it becomes easy to find stuff to delete to clear off disk space when you're low, or where to breakup backups of different directories.

Linking is a big deal for me, basically you can have a shortcut on the filesystem that points elsewhere. With that, say you need to move a large program or directory to a different disk, but many programs reference where it's at, you can just link (symbolic or hard) to the new location.

Cons: Figuring out what distro is right for you can take some time. Package managers, and more importantly the package maintainers (the people who decide the packages to be included in the package managers list) will vary from distro to distro. In one distro, a program you want is just a few clicks away, in another, you may have to add repositories, download a .run installer, or install from source to get the same program. If you have a command line phobia, you may have difficulty adapting, but for the most part you don't need to use it as often as in older distros.
 
For me.....

Pros
  • Easy to install
  • Package management instead of discrete downloads for software - 20k+ apps at your fingertips, all in one place...and all free
  • Solid as a rock
  • Gawd, it's fast
  • Did I mention free software?
  • For me, all the tools I use work beautifully, and my development environment finally mirrors my server environment
  • Amarok, perhaps the best music player out there
  • For Ubuntu, at least, the codec management runs rings around Windows
  • Eye candy. I like sticking it to the Apple fanboys.
  • No registry, and no COM+ to screw with your mind. It's all done with easy-to-read config files and services which all live in one place.
  • Great community
Cons
  • Not quite everything's point-and-click yet, so the average user might still be a bit out of their depth
  • Hardware support sucks for a few types of hardware - I'm thinking wireless cards and imaging devices (scanners/webcams) here. However, Intel wireless works out of the box with Ubuntu, which is a real plus (most laptops will work without any intervention).
  • Sometimes, there are too many options - choice can be somewhat overwhelming (this is where Ubuntu scores points, because it only bundles one app for each function - although you can still install all the others with Synaptic)
  • "Industry standard" apps don't apply here - if you're hoping to get Photoshop CS3 working, you're going to be very disappointed (personally, I believe that companies should stop asking for Photoshop skills and start asking for design skills, but that's another rant for another time)
  • Learning curve - it's not as bad as a lot of people say it is, but it is there. I prefer GNOME as my desktop, and for me the switch from XP was easy as pie...can't say the same about KDE (YMMV)
  • If you become a convert, you'll probably lose most of your friends as you try to bring them over from the dark side.
I can honestly say that I haven't looked back since I made the switch wholesale. You won't really be able to tell if it's for you, though, until you go cold-turkey and don't touch Windows for a week or so. Perhaps try to grab another hard drive to install it on, and just copy your docs across from your Win drive - then put it in a drawer somewhere. See how long you can go without resorting to Windows, and list the tasks you absolutely need a Windows app for. If there's nothing particularly big in there (and the list isn't too long), you could just use that Windows license of yours and install it in VirtualBox or VMWare; this is what I do for Ladbrokes Poker because it won't work under WINE.....'course, you boys across the pond don't have that problem, 'cos it's illegal over there anyway :p
 
I installed Gutsy Gibbon over the weekend. The eye candy is nice but, just like Aero and Aqua, it is the single most useless feature available, and only makes your system run slow. I actually prefer Aero over the Aqua and Compiz, because the animations are least intrusive to my productivity,

I guess the pros would be the obvious lack of exploits and viruses out there for it. Most people I know don't even run AV. This, of course, is stupid, as there is still a risk, albeit a much reduced risk.

Now for the cons, I really couldn't see a reason to stay with it. Vista with UAC and AVG provides me as much security as Linux with it's lack of exploits and ask-admin-password-every-few-minutes system. There is the obvious incompatibility - I had to swap my Windows drive back in so I could finish a school assignment that was due today. Linux can't do anything Windows cannot, and running a limited account with a passworded admin account under Windows gives you the same level of security Linux does.

I hate to sound like a Microsoft drone in the Linux forum, but I really cannot justify using Linux as a desktop. Don't take me wrong here, all right? I love my Linux server to death, and wouldn't trade it for any Windows or Mac server. It's just that for day-to-day computing, the latest Mac or Microsoft OS is going to provide you the best balance of usability and compatibility. Could I have brute-forced my school assignment in Linux? Yes. Was it worth the headache? Of course not. I'm back to Vista now, as I need an OS I can rely on that has a balance of stability (which MS has finally gotten right), and yet is compatible with the rest of my school.
 
open-office is not brute forcing it. plus, vista is nowhere near as secure as Linux. Vista is still susceptible to the same win32 privilege elevation exploits/viri that XP was/is. It might be a bit better, but it's nowhere as complete as a *NIX default. I run Vista at home as well, but it's nowhere near as competitive an OS as *NIX. I, unfortunately, like video games and I can't stand rebooting just to play a game, so I stick to Linux as my server distro of choice, if not desktop. I'm not sure there is one thing for school that would have to be "brute forced" through linux.
 
Rabidfox said:
open-office is not brute forcing it. plus, vista is nowhere near as secure as Linux. Vista is still susceptible to the same win32 privilege elevation exploits/viri that XP was/is. It might be a bit better, but it's nowhere as complete as a *NIX default. I run Vista at home as well, but it's nowhere near as competitive an OS as *NIX. I, unfortunately, like video games and I can't stand rebooting just to play a game, so I stick to Linux as my server distro of choice, if not desktop. I'm not sure there is one thing for school that would have to be "brute forced" through linux.
Click to expand...

I don't think he was talking abt hacking his machine, more in just brute-force&ignorance into learning another program ie MS-Word => OO-Writer
Yes you can "brute-force" it, I did it when I really got into linux in 2000 when I wiped my laptop and installed RedHat and forced myself to learn it (and the apps), esp since it was being used to write my final year thesis (good news was while everyone got infected by some VB virus that corrupted word docu I didn't )
 
yeah, I was talking about cracking anything or "hacking" anything, either. I wouldn't expect someone to to delve into source code for anything school related, unless you're a CS major. I'm saying that OO is setup like MS Office, VLC is pointy-clicky, even video drivers are easy as hell now. If he needs a list of comparable software, just post it and I, and others, will fire back a million alternatives. You might even like some of them better ;-)
 
InorganicMatter said:
Visual Studio 2005 doesn't run on Linux. ;)
Click to expand...


Quite correct....and I found that once I'd ditched it in the move to Linux, my world was a much happier place to live in ;)

(yes, I know that many people don't get a choice as to what they use to develop in...I'm just one of the lucky ones)
 
:LJ: said:
Quite correct....and I found that once I'd ditched it in the move to Linux, my world was a much happier place to live in ;)

(yes, I know that many people don't get a choice as to what they use to develop in...I'm just one of the lucky ones)
Click to expand...

I agree, i run Ubuntu Feisty on my main computer (Asus Laptop), and have since Drake. I love it, it just works! hahah, i have had to tweak some things but thats the fun of it, at least for me. I have finally after what 3-4 years gotten my install just the way i want it, i mean font size, background, transparencies, etc.

I use to use MS OneNote for all my classes and have really really missed it, but TomBoy has come very far, and is almost a replacement for it, but not quite. I love the stickies app, one of the best! Love the gnome applets in general. Im just waiting for the new release of Evolution to sync with google calendar and my symbian Nokia phone.
 
Take a look at the kde app basket if you're missing one note. It's more of a middle ground, but it's still not one note.

I just tend to my a web wiki for that stuff though.
 
InorganicMatter said:
Visual Studio 2005 doesn't run on Linux. ;)
Click to expand...

err??? where did VS come into this!!!! he was talking abt OO and you bring into the discussion VS!

Yes VS doesn't run in linux so if you want to dev windows apps and want to use VS then sure you gotta use VS, but I never raised such an example
 
InorganicMatter said:
..... Linux can't do anything Windows cannot.....
Click to expand...

Actually, it can. Take the package management, for example. Thousands of applications, all in one place. Not only that, but every last one of them is kept up to date by your system (in contrast, Windows Update only updates the OS and a few select applications written by your OS manufacturer).

How about full control over the look and feel of your system out-of-the-box? With XP and Vista, you have to either buy a third-party app to re-skin your desktop or kill the explorer.exe shell and install something else.

I could go on, but of course there's always the biggie, for those of us that think these things matter - the fact that all the code is up for viewing and alteration as you see fit. Freedom in every sense, baby.

Windows definitely can't do that.
 
deuce868 said:
Take a look at the kde app basket if you're missing one note. It's more of a middle ground, but it's still not one note.

I just tend to my a web wiki for that stuff though.
Click to expand...

humm, ill have to take a look at it. Though i am running gnome, and personally (nothing against KDE) do not like KDE, but ill download a live cd and see what its all about.

Thanks for the suggestion.
 
I'm R-E-A-L-L-Y interested in Linux/Ubuntu and am strongly considering making the jump to it. I'll try it on my laptop before making it my desktop OS. I want to be sure my main software apps (FrameMaker, RoboHelp, Captivate, Storyboard Artist, a few others) and games will work on Linux. I hope they do because I have less than zero confidence/interest in Vista.
 
Mr. Wolf said:
I'm R-E-A-L-L-Y interested in Linux/Ubuntu and am strongly considering making the jump to it. I'll try it on my laptop before making it my desktop OS. I want to be sure my main software apps (FrameMaker, RoboHelp, Captivate, Storyboard Artist, a few others) and games will work on Linux. I hope they do because I have less than zero confidence/interest in Vista.
Click to expand...

I can help you out there: they won't. RoboHelp and Captivate particularly won't work (think about it - there's no reason to put effort into getting RoboHelp to work when all it does is generate Windows-only help systems....how would you test it?). Also, Macromedia/Adobe don't see Linux as a viable platform, so it's highly unlikely you'll ever see Captivate and Framemaker on there.

Open your mind a little - don't just think about getting specific applications working on Linux. Ask yourself what you do with those apps, and try to find something which does that job on Linux - Scribus, for example, probably does most of what you need from FrameMaker.
 
:LJ: said:
I can help you out there: they won't. RoboHelp and Captivate particularly won't work (think about it - there's no reason to put effort into getting RoboHelp to work when all it does is generate Windows-only help systems....how would you test it?). Also, Macromedia/Adobe don't see Linux as a viable platform, so it's highly unlikely you'll ever see Captivate and Framemaker on there.

Open your mind a little - don't just think about getting specific applications working on Linux. Ask yourself what you do with those apps, and try to find something which does that job on Linux - Scribus, for example, probably does most of what you need from FrameMaker.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the insight. Unfortunately, the companies I contract with use these apps so I've gotta use them. I already figured RoboHelp was out due to its Windows dependencies, but was going to try anyway. Storyboard Artist is the only tool used by big studios and agencies. If my mainstream apps won't work on Linux I doubt SA will, either. Definite downer! :(
 
Mr. Wolf said:
Thanks for the insight. Unfortunately, the companies I contract with use these apps so I've gotta use them. I already figured RoboHelp was out due to its Windows dependencies, but was going to try anyway. Storyboard Artist is the only tool used by big studios and agencies. If my mainstream apps won't work on Linux I doubt SA will, either. Definite downer! :(
Click to expand...

For what it's worth, my company's legacy system is based on IIS, VB6 and SQL. I run Ubuntu 7.04 on my laptop for everyday stuff (including the new Java-based system) and the legacy stuff goes into a VirtualBox VM running XP - it's amusing to me that XP runs loads quicker in the VM (with 512MB) than it ever did native on my laptop...although I do have 2GB RAM, which helps.
 
:LJ: said:
For what it's worth, my company's legacy system is based on IIS, VB6 and SQL. I run Ubuntu 7.04 on my laptop for everyday stuff (including the new Java-based system) and the legacy stuff goes into a VirtualBox VM running XP - it's amusing to me that XP runs loads quicker in the VM (with 512MB) than it ever did native on my laptop...although I do have 2GB RAM, which helps.
Click to expand...

Thats actually what i am going to be doing. When the new version of Ubuntu comes out next month, i am going to wipe my laptop clean and install Ubuntu, without dual booting XP, and just run XP in a VM environment, or maybe even Win2k (i like it better!)

The reason i am doing a clean install is because i have messed some things up with Ubuntu concerning getting my memory card reader to work, and it has really bogged down the system, but it does work now, but when i insert a card it mounts it twice.....haha go figure! lol.
 
duby229 said:
Why would you want to develop windows programs on Linux anyway? If your gonna be using Linux, why dont you use the --much-- better tools that it provides for developing Linux programs?
Click to expand...

already said that, got no reply ;)
its like saying windows virus's don't work on linux as a reason why linux is rubbish
 
I am interested in the "much better" development tools available under Linux. I still haven't found any. :p

BTW, I am being serious.
 
:LJ: said:
For what it's worth, my company's legacy system is based on IIS, VB6 and SQL. I run Ubuntu 7.04 on my laptop for everyday stuff (including the new Java-based system) and the legacy stuff goes into a VirtualBox VM running XP - it's amusing to me that XP runs loads quicker in the VM (with 512MB) than it ever did native on my laptop...although I do have 2GB RAM, which helps.
Click to expand...
That's a neat idea. I'll give it shot over the weekend. :)
 
pxc said:
I am interested in the "much better" development tools available under Linux. I still haven't found any. :p

BTW, I am being serious.
Click to expand...

Really? You mean to tell me that you cant find better development tools in an OS that was designed by programmers for programmers?
 
Admittedly vim, Eclipse and Anjuta (cygwin port) all run on windows so they aren't "much better" tools that are unavailable on windows as was asked about.
 
jimmyb said:
Admittedly vim, Eclipse and Anjuta (cygwin port) all run on windows so they aren't "much better" tools that are unavailable on windows as was asked about.
Click to expand...

he wasn't after dev tool's that were linux-only (such a concept goes against FOSS, we don't need exclusive to keep ppl using our OS you know ;) )

WHAT he was asking was for a "much better" (besides the bad English and the subjectivity of such a question) development tools available under Linux. NO mention of exclusivity

Yes you are right such IDE are cross-platform and that is credit to their quality (VIM and Eclipse esp). IF you want to develop windows apps an windows then sure VS is suitable, BUT if you want to dev there are plenty of IDE's out there for linux and as you point out they are also avail for windows
 
rkf76 said:
I'm fascinated by Linux and am contemplating a Vista/Linux dual boot setup. I don't do gaming, just surf the net, multimedia stuff (digital pic editing, music, watch videos), and some word processing from time to time. The fact that Linux is free is the icing on the cake but I want to hear from those who have or do use it with the things they like and don't like about it.

Why do I want to use it? Truth be told, i'm curious about how good of an OS it is and I also like to be different. Not that many people use it, or even know about it, so I would love to have a good experience with it and spread the word cause I don't know about you guys but to me, free > *.

I read "30 days with Linux" and like the eye candy that's available for it as well, but I'd like to hear about the functionality of it from firsthand users.
Click to expand...

windows=games Linux=EVERYTHING ELSE :0
I started using linux about 3 years ago and cant imagine computer life with out it, I STRONGLY advise you to investigate linux..it can be a pain sometimes but most of the time it is GREAT.

S!
 
pxc said:
Nope, those rival 6-7 year old development tools being generous to each.
Click to expand...

So your saying that VS is better then Vim? ooookkkkk.... That officially excludes you from any and all further technical discussions on computer technology in any and all contexts.
 
duby, you're the last one that should be putting that brand on people. :D

Put a windows machine on the internet, and let it idle for three days, then try saying that again. Go ahead and get all the updates, and put a firewall on, and use virus scanner, and an ad blocker.. Whatever else you want. Once your done setting it up, let it idle. Dont touch it... Thats a little challenge for you.

If you can come back here and say that it was not infected with some kind of malware within that three day period, you'll get a cookie, becouse you have managed something that no other human being has ever done before.

I'm still amazed you think every windows machine is infested with spyware one way or the other. Maybe that was an exaggeration? I'm not here to argue anymore though, feel free to get the "last word" in. :rolleyes:
 
pxc said:
Nope, those rival 6-7 year old development tools being generous to each.
Click to expand...

Mwhaahahahha.....you think Eclipse is only as good as Studio 6 (for example)? I suppose that's why all the big companies in the world (who aren't tied to Microsoft's architecture) are going mad for it. Yeah, that's right. Oh, and for the record, I use Eclipse on a daily basis, having moved there from Visual Studio (6, 2003 and 2005) - I can honestly say that it's far an away the better IDE, and I don't know anybody who'd tell you any different.
 
I have always been partial to Emacs myself. I kind of like Glade. Eric I find is pretty decent..haven't used it a ton. Then again all the available Pything IDE's are missing something. Eclipse is something I have never really used, but their is no doubting its popularity. I know more pro dev's who swear by eclipse than I know who even use VS. I haven't even heard of a single person who prefers VS to eclipse. If you do.then by all means stay with windows. No point beating your head against the wall.
 
Well, here's a practical example.
I'm currently working on a web service that allows a third party to send data in a generic format through XML which we then store in our datacenter, for another party to run reporting tools on.

I'm using VS2005, IIS and SQL Server 2005 for this.
Some 'neat' features I've been using imho:
- XML web services.
I basically write code as usual, except that I put [WebMethod] in front of methods in my object that I want to be published to the outside. When the code is done, I just right-click on the project, select "Publish Web Site", then I enter the URL of the IIS server where I want to put the webservice, and it automatically uploads and configures it.
I then simply pass the URL to the third party. They do "Add Web Reference" on their project, enter the URL, and VS2005 automatically downloads the specification of the published webservice, and generates a local 'proxy' object, which they can then use as if the webservice was a local object.

- Datasets.
When I want to access data from my database, I simply add a connection to the database I'm interested in, and I can browse and modify the database from within VS2005 itself. I then add a DataSet object to my project. This gives me a 'canvas' on which I can drag-and-drop tables, views, stored procedures etc, and VS2005 will automatically generate all the code to retrieve the data and put it in strongly typed dataset objects with constraint-checking, search functionality and all that. A stored procedure is wrapped into a method that can be called directly from your code. All the SQL is handled by VS2005 (unless you manually want to enter SQL ofcourse), and the integration with the database is very tight.

- dbmail.
When I want to notify the administrators on certain modifications on the database, I can simply create a trigger on it, and have the trigger execute the dbmail stored procedures, so I can send mail directly from the trigger.

Well, just some things I've been playing with in VS2005 the past week or so. How would you do it with linux tools?

I have worked with Eclipse in the past, but mainly with PHP, and I don't think that gives me a true idea of the power of Eclipse, if you say it can do the same things as VS2005... because with PHP it surely couldn't.
I've also used it a bit for Java, but ended up moving to Netbeans/Java Studio when developing Sun Portlets... however, the integration left a thing or two to be desired. More often than not, a project packaged in JStudio didn't actually deploy right on the actual server (which was an actual Sun Solaris system, with the Sun Portlet Server installed, and supported by Sun itself), and required manual hacking (unpacking, editing/removing some files, repacking).
My experience is that VS2005 is more powerful/feature-rich than either of these IDE's, and also has less 'glitches'.
At home I prefer VS2005 for my C++, C# and assembly needs, and Netbeans for Java. At work I generally use whatever is required and/or available for the job at hand. When writing PHP, VS2005 is obviously not much use for example. I don't really have a strong preference for any tools... In a way it's simple... I get paid by the hour, so it's not my problem if I work with tools that don't get the job done quickly. If I have to use vi (like on the Sun box, and that's vi, not vim), then I will.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top