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Linux: Pros and Cons

Scali2 said:
Well, just some things I've been playing with in VS2005 the past week or so. How would you do it with linux tools?
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Personally, I'd use Rails, like this:

http://manuals.rubyonrails.com/read/chapter/69

No mucking about with direct database access, just collections of objects. For the dbmail function, I'd just use a before_filter in the Rails actions.

As regards the power of the IDE, you have to remember that the beauty of Eclipse is that you can develop using any platform, toolset and language supported by the plugins....and the tools available in the plugins far outstrip the range available in VS2005 (yes, I know it supports plugins, but they're outnumbered massively by Eclipse's).

From my experience, VS2005 was glitchy as hell, inconsistent within the IDE between languages supported by default (eg VB.NET vs C# - same controls exist in certain forms, they just behave differently and sometimes are greyed out for no apparent reason). It's also crash-happy, slow (relatively speaking)....and the .NET framework is a mess. Just my personal opinion, though. I suppose VS2005 is fine if all you want to do is development without much actual writing of code...as soon as I went a bit further than that, things started to go wrong. For example - trying to use the object-based persistence methods that Microsoft recommends...it works fine for reading data. As soon as you want to write data, it falls over in a steaming heap. Turns out that you have to write all of your own code for that, although it's not mentioned anywhere in the documentation (at least, it wasn't when I was using it a year or so ago). It's almost as though they just hadn't finished the implementation. I know this isn't necessarily a weakness in the IDE, but since Microsoft tie the two together I feel justified in using it as a reason not to go near either.
 
No mucking about with direct database access, just collections of objects. For the dbmail function, I'd just use a before_filter in the Rails actions.
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Erm, you don't seem to understand...
Rails is client code (and not an IDE? and only for Ruby? Unacceptable, I can't use scripts for everything, I need to be able to integrate fast and efficient native code, and IDE means *integrated*, taking away the need for external tools and libraries, and having to write lots of 'irrelevant' code yourself, just concentrate on solving the actual problem). dbmail is a stored procedure on the database itself. I don't want to rely on clients for sending mail, having the database deal with its own events is more robust. Else I'd have to make sure that ALL clients perform the proper actions on ALL possible situations where the database can be modified... AND I'd have to make sure that these clients are actually able to mail, and actually RUN.

As regards the power of the IDE, you have to remember that the beauty of Eclipse is that you can develop using any platform, toolset and language supported by the plugins....and the tools available in the plugins far outstrip the range available in VS2005 (yes, I know it supports plugins, but they're outnumbered massively by Eclipse's).
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This isn't exactly a good indication of the power of Eclipse. You can't just count the number of plugins available or the number of languages supported and draw conclusions like that.
With VS2005 I don't actually use any plugins. I don't need them. The power I use is in the standard functionality (like the things I've mentioned). In fact I've only ever used one plugin, and that's Visual Assist. But I no longer need it now that the IDE has improved its IntelliSense and whatnot.

From my experience, VS2005 was glitchy as hell, inconsistent within the IDE between languages supported by default (eg VB.NET vs C# - same controls exist in certain forms, they just behave differently and sometimes are greyed out for no apparent reason). It's also crash-happy, slow (relatively speaking)....
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This again doesn't say much about Eclipse. If pointing out bad experiences in VS2005 is the best you can do to convince people to use Eclipse, you've got it backwards.
I'm not interested in the weaknesses of VS2005, but in the strengths of Eclipse. And frankly I can't name any. Eclipse is just a standard IDE with some fancy highlighting and some code completion, and stuff like that. But most IDEs have that these days. Other than that I don't see Eclipse adding much of value... When I used Java, there wasn't even a form editor, which is a big let-down in terms of productivity.
Yes, there may be plugins, and they may allow you to edit forms and all... but I don't have time to wade through dozens of mediocre plugins to find one that may actually do the job I'm looking for. I'd much rather install Netbeans and get it right out-of-the-box. I think most stuff just has to work out-of-the-box, because I have VERY bad experiences with Delphi and third-party components.
It was a HUGE undertaking to get Delphi set up on a new machine in a way that it could actually compile and run our codebase. Other than that, we couldn't upgrade to a newer version of Delphi, because the components we were depending on, were no longer being developed, and were simply not available. We painted ourselves in a corner with all this third-party stuff.
Never again. I want things to work out-of-the-box as much as possible, or else mainly use components from the same supplier, to minimize these situations. And VS2005 and Netbeans are just the strongest IDEs I've found, out-of-the-box. I rarely need extra plugins or other rubbish with either one. And that means I won't have problems installing a newer version, or moving to a new OS or anything.

So well, so far I'm not convinced.
 
drizzt81 said:
Just out of curiosity: If it is a stored procedure, how come it matters what IDE or OS you use?
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It's a specific built-in stored procedure of a specific database server, which runs on a specific OS and runs on a specific IDE (and what other IDE allows you to write stored procedures in the same environment as your code?).
I'm not saying it matters, I'm asking if there are similar solutions for linux.
If there aren't, then the conclusion would be that the IDE/OS matters. If there are, then we've all learnt that you can do the same things as well or better on linux with <name the proper tools here>.
 
Scali2 said:
It's a specific built-in stored procedure of a specific database server, which runs on a specific OS and runs on a specific IDE (and what other IDE allows you to write stored procedures in the same environment as your code?).
I'm not saying it matters, I'm asking if there are similar solutions for linux.
If there aren't, then the conclusion would be that the IDE/OS matters. If there are, then we've all learnt that you can do the same things as well or better on linux with <name the proper tools here>.
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OK, I'll take all your points together here....

Basically, if you're talking about .NET v2.0, all of your IDE and platform decisions have already been made for you. The point I was trying (unsuccessfully, it seems) to make is that with Linux, you have choices all over the place - it's that abundance of choice which often puts people off, I'll admit.

You asked how *I* would implement your solution, and using nice easily built Rails stuff is my preference. Eclipse is able to provide that precisely because of the choices available - I don't have to use a specific language, virtual machine or database because of my choice of IDE (and vice-versa). Interestingly enough, you said you don't like writing lots of irrelevant code yourself - that's one of Rails' strengths, including all of the database abstraction code (although that's a discussion for another day/thread).

I would argue that Eclipse being more stable, less glitchy etc than VS2005 is a perfectly good reason to choose it over VS2005, presuming that your architecture decisions haven't already been made for you to its exclusion. Those are all things which Eclipse does better than VS2005. Similarly, the fact that there are thousands of plugins for Eclipse, supporting many many architectures and languages, is also one of its strengths and yet another reason I choose it - I only need one IDE to support everything I need to do, instead of several. YMMV. Eclipse is available as a whole raft of different distributions, each of which have a different purpose (much like Linux). You don't necessarily need to search through "dozens of mediocre plugins" - just find a distro which does what you want, and then add to it if you feel like it.

If draggy/droppy code generation is the main feature you're looking for, then you're probably out of luck. Similarly, if you're looking for database servers which send emails, you're probably going to be pissing in the wind as well. My point is that there are perfectly good (and very easy) ways to do it with very little work, but you'd have to change the way you do things slightly.

We painted ourselves in a corner with all this third-party stuff.
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Well, I'd argue that the choice of .NET v2.0 with VS2005 is exactly painting yourself into a corner with third-party stuff.

May I suggest that if you want to carry this IDE vs DB vs Language vs Platform discussion on, we move it into the programming forum? I'm conscious that one or both of us may have strayed slightly beyond the scope of the OP ;)
 
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