HardOCP News
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Linux is bloated and scary? Thank god Linus Torvalds said that and not some Windows guy or else this would kick off the fight of all forum fights. Wait…it might do that anyway.
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Linus Torvalds: 'Linux is Bloated'
- Thread starter HardOCP News
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I'm sorry, but a Desktop OS *has* to be bloated, or you don't get everything Desktop users need!
I like the new direction, because I'm one that would like to see Linux gain ground against Windows.
Besides, a basic Ubuntu 9.04 install is only "bloated" if... (a) You're trying to run it on 10-year-old hardware, or (b) You're insane.
I like the new direction, because I'm one that would like to see Linux gain ground against Windows.
Besides, a basic Ubuntu 9.04 install is only "bloated" if... (a) You're trying to run it on 10-year-old hardware, or (b) You're insane.
NKDietrich
Supreme [H]ardness
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You can make a surprisingly tiny and functional Linux install if you do it from scratch (no distro). But boy does it take some time.
The-UselessNoob
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What if you are both? Do they cancel each other out?
Precisely. That's a barrier to widespread adoption.
Though I noticed after posting (i.e. when I read the article
) that they agree: it's a part of "growing up" for the OS, so to speak. I love Linux because it is an alternative to Windows, which does come with "bloat", not because it's Linux Torvald's wet dream of a micro-operating system! Besides, he's basically irrelevant now (no offense to the man).jeremyshaw
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jeremyshaw
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Precisely. That's a barrier to widespread adoption.
Though I noticed after posting (i.e. when I read the article
TinyCore = uber-OS.
But I only find a decent use for it every once in a while.
TheBuzzer
HACK THE WORLD!
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For a one size fit all, stuff got to be bloated. There are linux that are hardware specific and those are not bloated but won't run on everyone's comp.
Not true OSX does not have the bloat that Windows or Linux has. Same can be said for AmigaOS, NeXT, Solaris, BeOS. It's all about controlling the hardware environment and concentrating on core functions of the OS. In a controlled environment Linux is very lean and mean, It's just that it's trying to be imitate instead of innovate.
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Really?
http://www.apple.com/macosx/what-is-macosx/
See the left hand side of the page. Add the iLife stuff, since that comes on every mac.
Seems to be very similar to me...
They all have the same stuff anymore. Some kind of word processor, a photo editor, movie maker, DVD/CD burner, email, calendar, internet browser, media player, and a specific set of UI doohickies (Aero, dock/expose, compiz).
And to be honest, given that a lot of that stuff has to be downloaded for Windows 7, you could make the argument for windows being lighter.
gwarren007
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/watches the fires start
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Ocellaris
Fully [H]
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Most distros make one available the user in the default menus, then various other consoles/text editors/whatever are included as well. If someone types in the command, they get it. The sizes for this type of thing is usually minuscule.
Yes it does. Remember we are talking about the *KERNEL ONLY* here. Linux is *only* the kernel, nothing more. Most people use it in the general sense of the entire distro, which is all well and good normally, but Linus is talking about only the kernel. And OSX's BSD kernel isn't any more stripped down than the Linux one.
InorganicMatter
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And therein lies the problem. Linux used to be cool when it was a server OS. The big push for a Linux Desktop has done nothing but bloat Linux to an unstable mess (which is still totally unsuited for a desktop).
Posted via [H] Mobile Device
Now that really isn't bloat, as they can be removed easily if you don't want them. Also, that is up to whatever distro you are installing. Its a fine line to walk, but I wouldn't usually consider more choice and installed applications bloat in the case of apps that are actually useful and widely used, and usually anything pre-installed by most distros fall into that category.
But again, that is really a different discussion as Linus's comments were centered on what he actually cares about - the kernel.
Gorankar
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One person's bloat is another person's must have app.
One person's must have app is another person's bloat.
If you want to compete in the desktop realm, you sort of have to have a certain level of bloat. But I do think having 4 different text editors that all essentially do the same thing, is a bit much.
One person's must have app is another person's bloat.
If you want to compete in the desktop realm, you sort of have to have a certain level of bloat. But I do think having 4 different text editors that all essentially do the same thing, is a bit much.
really? lol.... i run boing 24/7 and at the same time do everything from wandering the internet to running a virtual machine with games like Age of Empiers 3....... and ever so very rarely, maybe 2 times over six months do i ever have a crash and its usually because of virtualbox..... so i really don't want to hear this....
jeremyshaw
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That's you, other people have different usage habits, which is why MS typically gets bad rap, due to really stupid end-users.
Linux, there is a slim chance the person using it is actually intelligent (computer wise), and not some script kiddie trying to impress his (not really) friends.
No one wants to come out and say it but I will.... look at the default supplemental programs installed with Windows 7 vs a typical Linux install... of course Linux includes more 3rd party apps... not necessarily a problem...but why???
Here's why.... for a new Linux user or install... its a pain in the ass to install certain linux apps and have them functioning...vs how easy it is for windows. People can accidentally install stuff to windows its so easy... you never accidentally install stuff on linux.... feel free to disagree.
Yo Linus, I'm really happy for you....I"m gonna let you finish....but Windows is one of the easiest installs of all time.
Here's why.... for a new Linux user or install... its a pain in the ass to install certain linux apps and have them functioning...vs how easy it is for windows. People can accidentally install stuff to windows its so easy... you never accidentally install stuff on linux.... feel free to disagree.
Yo Linus, I'm really happy for you....I"m gonna let you finish....but Windows is one of the easiest installs of all time.
heatlesssun
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QFT. Installing stuff in general on Linux vs Windows. Honestly, there's no contest.
Yeah, Windows is so far behind in this area its pathetic
I'm going to go out on a limb and say you've either never actually ran Linux or you picked a poor distro. To install something in Ubuntu, you click Applications -> Install new applications. Pick what you want from a searchable list with user rankings and hit "install" - it truly cannot get any simpler. And most distros have something similar. Heck, I can even give you a link to the "installer" via a hyperlink. Or you can download it and double click it. For most applications, installing things in Linux is completely pain free and *very* simple.
The reason most distros include 3rd party apps is quite simple - because the people who created the distro WANTED those apps. It has *nothing* to do with the false idea that apps are difficult to install or any crap like that. Its because the people who created the distro want it, and it got popular because it has it. All distros more or less start out as someone saying "I want a bundle of these applications", and then they grow from there. Distros are based upon the idea of including things out of the box - that is their entire purpose, the reason they exist.
The reason Microsoft doesn't is also equally simple. MS can't include many of their own programs or they get charged with being a monopoly, and they are a business so they sure as hell aren't going to preinstall their competitions software. Also, Windows Vista/7 include a hell of a lot of programs as well, its just most people either don't use them or replace them. Most Linux distros don't include a TV interface, for example.
dyzophoria
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wasnt (a) also the downside of vista?
I've started feeling that way recently when I install the latest build of Ubuntu. I actually enjoy using Windows 7 more as I used to go back and forth but I found myself doing less and less in Ubuntu and more and more using just the basic apps that come with Win 7. Plus Chrome 3 just rocks and doesn't run in Linux without emulation or without having to run a extremely early alpha build which is horrible.
wasnt (a) also the downside of vista?
Yes it was, one of the reasons I don't believe most of the FUD.
I disagree. Ubuntu has come a very long way towards making a very simple and intuitive desktop distribution.
I've found myself using Windows 7 frequently as well (being on my "gaming" computer for my basic tasks, but not gaming), however when I return to my Ubuntu laptop it just feels more natural, something Windows can't replace.
I think when they talk about bloat here, they're talking about more than just the apps that are bundled in (that's the easiest kind of bloat to trim)... They're also talking about all the built-in drivers as well, and processes to make certain hardware work, etc.
I must admit I chuckled... But man is that joke gonna get old fast.
I think you both have a point... And yea, while for most applications it might actually be simpler on Linux, when you do run into an unlisted app the process tends to be completely out of the reach of an average user. Windows might be more cumbersome in general, but I can't remember the last time I had to open up a console to install something.
jeremyshaw
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Whatever arguement is convenient, at the moment.
Seriously, I stopped using Linux because of all the custom configurations I had to make to run applications (email server, actaully) the way I liked. It was probably due to me not knowing how Linux worked at the time, but it was enough for me to stop using it.
I never liked WINE (too many 'workarounds') and I just stuck with Windows because our network was just designed that way.
ATM, it was too much more to switch over, now, it's near impossible! (vine like growth of MS products to blame
).Still, if I had known more, our company might be 100% linux now.
Yeah, Windows is so far behind in this area its pathetic
I'm going to go out on a limb and say you've either never actually ran Linux or you picked a poor distro. To install something in Ubuntu, you click Applications -> Install new applications. Pick what you want from a searchable list with user rankings and hit "install" - it truly cannot get any simpler. And most distros have something similar. Heck, I can even give you a link to the "installer" via a hyperlink. Or you can download it and double click it. For most applications, installing things in Linux is completely pain free and *very* simple.
Yes that is SOOO much easier than Windows.
Let's see, I Google an app. Go to the app's homepage. Click the download link. Then click Run. Yep, so much harder in Windows.- Joined
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When's the last time you were able to do that with Office?Yes that is SOOO much easier than Windows.
jeremyshaw
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Just because the linux distro comes with OpenOffice on it, doesn't mean it's all the suddenly superior.
The fact is:
ya pop in a disc.
You type in a serial key.
You click install.
Unless if you are short of reading roman letters (and arabic numbers), then this isn't a 'hard' task.
When was the last time you could run just about any game, natively?
I remember being so happy I got Starcraft to run, with *some* issues in WINE.
Almost made me jump out my seat right there. Then I grew up and realised... why bother with workarounds? Linux is a free workaround to Windows.
Apple OS... just is a sham pulled over Applite's heads (yeah... we get our service packs for only 30USD! I can update my whole family for 60USD!). Darwin OS is still free, but... Apple somehow found loopholes (sorry, a bit off topic here!).
The package manager in Ubuntu is really great. The closest thing to it on any other platform is the App Store with the iPhone/iPod Touch, maybe something like Steam as well (I say "maybe" because it isn't a base application in the OS). Having a centralized platform where applications can be found, downloaded, and kept up to date, is a great thing, I wish there was something like it on Windows and OS X.
ChairmanMiau
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Good work reaffirming Windows' position as a toy OS.
jeremyshaw
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Well, it's not like I got any work done on either OS, just managed to get my games (more, back then) to work better on windows.
Besides... what else do 'normal' [H] users use their computers for?
Half the sigs have uber-high end graphics cards, of nearly any generation.
Its one thing to be bloated, its another if you can/cannot remove the bloat
Linux (kernel) has alot of bloat innit but 5min going through the options makes a lean kernel
Linux (desktop) has alot of "tech" to make life easier BUT it uses CPU time/RAM space/HDD space but spending some time actually choosing what you really want what you really need and what you don't want can make hte difference
My sparce 2.6.31 kernel using Openbox with Tint2 is just <3. Look at an Ubuntu default setup and it has alot of cruft running BUT such cruft makes the general users life easier such they don't have to deal with the commandline.
Linux (kernel) has alot of bloat innit but 5min going through the options makes a lean kernel
Linux (desktop) has alot of "tech" to make life easier BUT it uses CPU time/RAM space/HDD space but spending some time actually choosing what you really want what you really need and what you don't want can make hte difference
My sparce 2.6.31 kernel using Openbox with Tint2 is just <3. Look at an Ubuntu default setup and it has alot of cruft running BUT such cruft makes the general users life easier such they don't have to deal with the commandline.