Jay Wilson: Auction House really hurt Diablo 3

[stevedave]

Diablo 3 is very much a game about killing monsters and getting loot. Drop rates directly impact the "getting loot" portion of the experience. The time it takes to get the 200/200 helm is going to impact how much fun most players have.

Maybe for some. Not for me. The more bad loot I get the less I even want to pick up loot. And for me the problem is bad loot; which is bad Item and game design, not low quantity of loot.

Up the quality of drops and decrees the drop rate would provide a better treasure hunt for me. Pick up less and get the same amount of quality Items per hour.....you just lose excitement for drops if they drop all the time and are virtually never good.

 

[Mozex]

Why didn't you quote his response in its entirety? He specifically refers to the first quote you used and says he's going to "expound on it" not that he's disagreeing with it or going to say something contradictory to it:

I didn't quote in full because the omitted text did not deal with the topic. He can say he's only 'expounding' but the two statements appear contradictory.

Here's my paraphrase of both statements.
Statement 1: We accounted for auction house usage when choosing our drop rates. If we hadn't the economy would be terrible (everything too cheap or too expensive).

Statement 2 - paragraph by paragraph:
(1) Items listed for sale on the auction house do not change the drop rates of items in games.

(2) drop rates were tuned such that you could play single player (no auction house) from 1-60 and have fun the whole way. The auction house was not factored in.

(3) The auction house was "a factor" in something (something is assumed to be "drop rate").

(4) players are stronger than we expected them to be after launch. Some abilities were not significantly tested.

(5) I like playing without the auction house.

Analysis:
(1) Some people claimed blizzard dynamically adjusted drop rates of specific items based on the availability of items on the auction house. This is unrelated to statement 1.

(2) contradicts statement 1.

(3) appears to contradict (2).

(4) and (5) have nothing to do with the statement 1.

 

[cageymaru]

Maybe for some. Not for me. The more bad loot I get the less I even want to pick up loot. And for me the problem is bad loot; which is bad Item and game design, not low quantity of loot.

Up the quality of drops and decrees the drop rate would provide a better treasure hunt for me. Pick up less and get the same amount of quality Items per hour.....you just lose excitement for drops if they drop all the time and are virtually never good.

After I gave up on finding loot to do Inferno with via drops playing solo, I bought some basic gear from the AH and continued picking up all the gear that dropped, ID'd everything, and vendored everything of course. I started watching the big name streams and I realized that they were making a lot more money wearing gold find rings, leaving 95% of the rare items on the ground, and racing through the instance. Then I got really smart and added in pick up radius to my gold find and rerolled WitchDoctor. I put in 400 hours picking up garbage for naught and those last few weeks skipping everything I made 10,000X more rushing through. I think the most I ever had at one time during those 400 hours was 2 million gold. Skipping everything allowed me to camp the AH and purchase 40 million dollar items for cheap.

As far as playing Hardcore goes that's for people with good connections to Blizzard servers. Where I live I fluctuate between 150ms to 200ms on really awesome days and peak at 500ms. That's also why I stopped doing races in Path of Exile as they are all hardcore and dying to a mob on the other side of the screen or invisible sucks in both games. Contrast this to Battlefield 3 where I have 13ms - 39ms in most games that I join and you can see the difference in "fun" that I have by that one metric alone.

 

[mope54]

Here's my paraphrase of both statements.
Statement 1: We accounted for auction house usage when choosing our drop rates. If we hadn't the economy would be terrible (everything too cheap or too expensive).

Statement 2 - paragraph by paragraph:
(1) Items listed for sale on the auction house do not change the drop rates of items in games.

(2) drop rates were tuned such that you could play single player (no auction house) from 1-60 and have fun the whole way. The auction house was not factored in.

(3) The auction house was "a factor" in something (something is assumed to be "drop rate").

(4) players are stronger than we expected them to be after launch. Some abilities were not significantly tested.

so you continue to ignore his and others' statements that the AH was definitely not a factor in drop rates (you "assume" this to be the case regardless of what he wrote) and then wonder why his statements are contradictory?

has it occurred to you that if someone gives you information you didn't previously possess but your understanding of the information leads you to conclude the claims are contradictory and nonsensical that your understanding is the issue?

 

[Nytegard]

I don't understand how the items are the same in hardcore. The early gear is boring and lackluster (well at least in comparison to D2) regardless of which mode you play.

Well, gear and drop rates aren't really different, but what you need to look for in gear is significantly different. E.G. For my monk, on SC, I look for dexterity, resistance, and vitality. Anything on top of that is a bonus. But for HC, I also need to make sure I have life regen, strength and intelligence on several pieces (particularly strength). And pickup radius. And health globes.

Seriously, when was the last time you wanted lots of health globe bonuses in SC?

 

[Inu]

I think the major thing missing is the runs in D2 with multiplayer.
I feel strongly disconnected to the rest of the world.
Chat rooms suck.
Multiplayer games suck.

 

[Mozex]

so you continue to ignore his and others' statements that the AH was definitely not a factor in drop rates (you "assume" this to be the case regardless of what he wrote) and then wonder why his statements are contradictory?

has it occurred to you that if someone gives you information you didn't previously possess but your understanding of the information leads you to conclude the claims are contradictory and nonsensical that your understanding is the issue?

I didn't say I believed one over the other. I said they released two statements which appear contradictory. If you can find other statements from Blizzard which reconcile the two statements I'd be happy to read them.

I listed out a paraphrase of each statement in an attempt to explain how I thought the statements were contradictory. If you feel I made an error in my paraphrase I'd be happy to read that too.

The only way I can see the statements not being contradictory is if the first one is regarding drop rates once level 60 is reached and the second statement is regarding drop rates from 1-59. That allows the AH to be a factor (60+) and not a factor (1-59) at the same time.

 

[mope54]

I thought they were contradictory when I first read them last year but when the person saying the statements says he's going to explain how they aren't contradictory we can't simply paraphrase them in ways that makes them contradictory (unless we believe he is just flat out lying and believes that people are stupid enough not to see that he is contradicting himself from one sentence to another).

That leaves us with only one reasonable option: when he says that the AH is not factored in drop rates, and specifically that drop rates are tuned for single player, then that means the factors the AH do impact are something *besides* drop rates.

You don't need to say which way you believe for me to know what your position is. Your belief that the AH and drop rates are linked is the cause of why you think the two statements are contradictory.

What other things might he be talking about then?
Well, he gives an example. He says here is this particular skill and now it's basically overpowered because of how the AH functions in the game. It basically takes away what people claim is variation in builds because it doesn't make sense to *not* take One With Everything.

but if the AH didn't exist, if people didn't have ready access to every gear slot with +res all and +res stat of their choice so they could double stack resist all and poison or lightening resist, for example, then the passive would be more balanced with the other passives.

so now they have to retool how the skills and passives work in a game where everyone has access to the best gear in the game

they have to retool monsters in consideration of people leapfrogging the gear checks they thought were in place

they have to work on the stats on the gear so that people aren't blowing DPS to the moon

maybe ultimately they'll have to address drop rates, too, but those other issues that I used illustrate how the AH impacts the game and needs to be factored into development decisions other than crude drop rates

in fact, he even goes into a lengthy description of how fiddling with crude drop rates doesn't address the issues. it simply moves the problem from one time to another. instead of the problem arising 7 weeks down the road it happens in two weeks. conversely, reducing the drop rates would only take players longer until they reached the same issues they're having now.

so clearly crude drop rates are not, at least in his mind, the response that should be taken to the problems the AH presents

the idea that the AH and drop rates are linked arose because players accused blizzard of fiddling with them to encourage or force players into buying gear with real money

that's one of the reasons I strongly advocate hardcore mode--there is no RMAH. if blizzard's design decisions were primarily guided by coercing players into real money purchases then they would implement it on hardcore where gear is arguably more important to players.

if design decisions were primarily motivated by coercing players into purchasing gear then they wouldn't have nerfed inferno content and they wouldn't now be making it easier to level and find gear in co-op games.

so clearly the argument that the drop rates are reduced in order to encourage real money sales on the auction house are tenuous at best

 

[TwistedAegis]

I have a hard time believing drop rates weren't influenced by the AH. You mean to tell me in internal testing, almost never finding a legendary, and when you did, salvaging or vendoring it, was a fun experience?

Although, perhaps if you never used the AH, the crappy legendaries actually were an upgrade.

But again, I'll link it all back to the retarded skills system. If you used D2s skills system, with more inherent damage linked to the skills themselves, not everything drives off of gear. You won't have people doing 40k DPS and others doing 2 million. The foundation of the game is broken; it just makes other flaws in the game all the more apparent.

 

[mope54]

yeah, if you never used the AH the crappy legendaries would have been an upgrade
that's the main issue they've discovered post-release

the problem with the relationship between skills and gear is that if it was done the D2 way the skills wouldn't be able to scale with difficulty the way they can now

 

[TwistedAegis]

yeah, if you never used the AH the crappy legendaries would have been an upgrade
that's the main issue they've discovered post-release

the problem with the relationship between skills and gear is that if it was done the D2 way the skills wouldn't be able to scale with difficulty the way they can now

Not necessarily; if they hadn't decided to arbitrarily cap leveling at 60 (to better sell expansions with level cap increases), skills could have exponentially increased damage as you increased your levels. That would have given a much greater incentive to continue playing as well. Gear still would have been hugely important, it just wouldn't have been the SOLE important factor.

 

[mope54]

how would this have worked?
I have a difficult time envisioning what people mean when they say this.

what are some concrete examples of how you envision a better implementation of the skills?
take a skill like meteor or fist of thunder and explain how it would look under your ideal design

here's a link to a current monk build for reference
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#aYegcQ!XUd!YcbcZZ

here's a blank skill calculator for barbarian for D3
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian

and one for D2
http://www.diablofans.com/page/tools/skill/d2-barbarian.html

 

[TwistedAegis]

Unfortunately I can't view those links at work. What I would do is more heavily weight the inherent skill damage, with gear then adding on to it. Right now the inverse appears to be the case. Bring back +1 skill per level increase, with a standard tree. Synergies from the last patch/xpac of D2 were a fantastic addition, giving you more ways to play around with your build. Allow for skill point resets, but make it cost millions of gold.

More +skills on gear, rather than solely focusing on crit, crit dmg, attack speed. I know the elemental damages come into play, but that is the least intuitive damage modifier that I've come across. I honestly couldn't tell you how the hell they actually work.

 

[pcjunkie]

Blllaaahhhh.......sometimes I wished I rolled anything but a Wiz for my main.

 

[LeninGHOLA]

yeah, if you never used the AH the crappy legendaries would have been an upgrade
that's the main issue they've discovered post-release

the problem with the relationship between skills and gear is that if it was done the D2 way the skills wouldn't be able to scale with difficulty the way they can now

They would if there was skill progression. It's actually a fairly simple thing to implement. At that point, we would be talking about a less "flexible" system, since changing on the fly would be more difficult without being able to redistribute progression points (Skill levels). It would also be a rather pointless layer without fundamentally changing how the game handles abilities .

 

[mope54]

Unfortunately I can't view those links at work. What I would do is more heavily weight the inherent skill damage, with gear then adding on to it.

how would this address the complaint that players are simply using the highest DPS items?

their skills would have more inherent damage based on levels but they'd still want to maximize DPS. Currently players have to level their characters in order to unlock their skills and passives, it's not like they can ignore levels and *only* focus on gear in the sense that you seem to be implying (that is, levels are irrelevant).

the solution you're proposing merely shifts where the endpoint dps occurs
worse, it's not substantively different than d3's system. When you look at the barbarian links I gave you you'll see that the skills he can choose are +10% damage per level. there isn't any complexity to it. it's just +damage, just like D3

maybe people didn't play too many barbs in d2. or they're just leaving that out for dramatic effect

you can't follow the links but if you've played d2 for years then I would think you would be able to provide a fairly specific description of the differences other than, "I'd +1 things"

 

[TwistedAegis]

I'm not trying to stop people from maximizing DPS, that's the whole point of an ARPG. It stops the wild swings of going from an 800 DPS weapon to a 940 DPS weapon, and gives a point to the game (leveling up, increasing damage) aside from just the gear grind. And it isn't substantively different at it's core, but it makes a substantive difference in gameplay. You aren't completely stopped and forced to go to the AH if that weapon never drops for you. You can continue playing content that you gear for at the moment, while still making your character substantively stronger.

I'm also talking about endgame here, level 60. Anything prior to that in D3 is, quite frankly, irrelevant. I'm sorry I can't write out a dissertation for you; if you've played D2, D3 and other RPGs and ARPGs I think the implications of the system(s) I'm advocating for should be somewhat self evident.

 

[mope54]

the things you're saying don't make sense to me because they don't line up with my experiences as a Diablo player. not from then and not from now. I haven't ever felt forced into using the AH and I don't know anyone personally who has. I've only played with about a dozen people and we play regularly so who knows how representative my experiences are of the population

if you aren't willing to explain yourself then that's the endpoint of the conversation as far as I can tell.

I can't parse vague statements like it's not substantively different at it's core but it's substantively different in gameplay or I would bring back +1 skill per level to fix wild dps differentials (like 150dps apparently)

I mean, currently, I gain more dps differences than that between levels 8,9 and 10 based on vendor trash

 

[TwistedAegis]

You seem to take pride in deliberately being obtuse when it comes to discussing Diablo 3. If you don't see the differences between D2's skill system, and D3's skill system, and how D3's more heavily favors gear, I don't know what else to say. For example - I specifically state I'm talking about level 60 endgame only, yet you bring up levels 8-10.

 

[Aix.]

I'm not trying to stop people from maximizing DPS, that's the whole point of an ARPG. It stops the wild swings of going from an 800 DPS weapon to a 940 DPS weapon, and gives a point to the game (leveling up, increasing damage) aside from just the gear grind. And it isn't substantively different at it's core, but it makes a substantive difference in gameplay. You aren't completely stopped and forced to go to the AH if that weapon never drops for you. You can continue playing content that you gear for at the moment, while still making your character substantively stronger.

I'm also talking about endgame here, level 60. Anything prior to that in D3 is, quite frankly, irrelevant. I'm sorry I can't write out a dissertation for you; if you've played D2, D3 and other RPGs and ARPGs I think the implications of the system(s) I'm advocating for should be somewhat self evident.

I wouldn't bother, dude. Go look at his posts in the D3 thread: they're all "that doesn't make sense" even when you take the time to explain in detail. He isn't interested in considering the solutions/ideas you have and loves the game as-is.

 

[mope54]

I'm asking you to explain the differences as you see them and to give concrete examples of how you would fix them.

If you can't or won't do so that's something to do with how you are presenting your position, not an indictment of my ability to understand concepts.

I am interested in hearing what your ideas are. But so far they simply consist of this sucks and I'd +1 to skills and then it'd fix the problem that you don't care to explicitly define.

I even provided links to various on-line skill calculators and asked what *specific* changes you would make to the skills to make them more palatable. Do I need to link to dictionary.com so you two can better understand what I mean when I use the terms specific and concrete?

 

[dremic]

the things you're saying don't make sense to me because they don't line up with my experiences as a Diablo player. not from then and not from now. I haven't ever felt forced into using the AH and I don't know anyone personally who has. I've only played with about a dozen people and we play regularly so who knows how representative my experiences are of the population

if you aren't willing to explain yourself then that's the endpoint of the conversation as far as I can tell.

I can't parse vague statements like it's not substantively different at it's core but it's substantively different in gameplay or I would bring back +1 skill per level to fix wild dps differentials (like 150dps apparently)

I mean, currently, I gain more dps differences than that between levels 8,9 and 10 based on vendor trash

all of my friends and myself felt very forced to use the AH. its a glaring issue. and without it itemization would have been significantly improved before release as well.

this isnt a subjective topic

the AH ruined this fucking game, along with poor itemization and poor end game.


itemization seems to be significantly better along with the end game. they also just released another patch that gives xp bonuses and MF bonuses to playing MP

if they add a mode with no AH that isnt hardcore, they will regain a substantial player base back. even though they are sitting at over a million players which is way better then some healthy MMOs out there.

 

[TwistedAegis]

I'm asking you to explain the differences as you see them and to give concrete examples of how you would fix them.

If you can't or won't do so that's something to do with how you are presenting your position, not an indictment of my ability to understand concepts.

I am interested in hearing what your ideas are. But so far they simply consist of this sucks and I'd +1 to skills and then it'd fix the problem that you don't care to explicitly define.

I have, apparently you're unable to grasp the concept of what D2's and D3's skill systems do when weighting how important gear is to overall DPS. I'm not going to break it out into specific equations for individual skills for you; as a supposed avid Diablo player it should be self-evident. So far multiple posters have grasped what I'm saying; meanwhile, you seem to be the only one not getting it. This is the same issue on an earlier discussion - several people attempted to explain something to you, in multiple ways, and you were the only one unable to grasp it.

 

[mope54]

I'm asking how you would specifically address itemization?

Give me some concrete pieces of gear you'd like to see in the game.

@TwistedAegis
It's the same two people--you and Aix from the other thread and occasionally dremic

if you three want to pal around on the boards that's fine but don't for a minute think it justifies your lack of explanation

the others from the other thread joined up in-game and we've been having fun together since
it's unfortunate you're bitter about your experience but it doesn't justify you lashing out at me in your frustration

I don't seek you guys out in the threads. You invariably start quoting me and responding to me. That's on you. Stop interacting with me if you become frustrated when I give you questions.

 

[MavericK]

You seem to take pride in deliberately being obtuse when it comes to discussing Diablo 3. If you don't see the differences between D2's skill system, and D3's skill system, and how D3's more heavily favors gear, I don't know what else to say. For example - I specifically state I'm talking about level 60 endgame only, yet you bring up levels 8-10.

All you need to do is look at his posting history and you'll see why you shouldn't even bother.

Seriously...D2 and D3 skill systems are nothing alike.

 

[big_aug]

all of my friends and myself felt very forced to use the AH. its a glaring issue. and without it itemization would have been significantly improved before release as well.

this isnt a subjective topic

the AH ruined this fucking game, along with poor itemization and poor end game.


itemization seems to be significantly better along with the end game. they also just released another patch that gives xp bonuses and MF bonuses to playing MP

if they add a mode with no AH that isnt hardcore, they will regain a substantial player base back. even though they are sitting at over a million players which is way better then some healthy MMOs out there.

How can you sit there and type that out? They would regain a substantial player base without the AH? You're out of your fucking mind lol

 

[mope54]

All you need to do is look at his posting history and you'll see why you shouldn't even bother.

Seriously...D2 and D3 skill systems are nothing alike.

When did I say they were alike?
I said his suggestions were like the D3 system.

I asked him how he'd fix the D3 system more in line with D2's and he couldn't even explain the differences. Instead he said he'd make skills +1 upon leveling and then base the rest of the DPS on gear!

I'm not going to break it out into specific equations for individual skills for you

several people attempted to explain something to you, in multiple ways, and you were the only one unable to grasp it.

This is how you "attempt" to explain something...you refuse to provide any details and then start to insult me with some variation on how dumb I am for not understanding what's obvious to you! You can't explain it because you don't have a good idea of what you're talking about. The only thing that is obvious to you is that you don't like the game. That's your choice, for sure, but don't inject your opinion into every diablo thread and insult people who are enjoying the game if that's all you're going to bring to the discussion. I don't go into every (or any) POE thread and shit all over it. What's your deal, dude?

I asked you to design *one* skill so I could have an example and you can't do it. That's how difficult it is to do. Expecting the Blizzard team to redesign the entire game into something you can't even clearly define for yourself is unrealistic.

So far you've admitted that you don't know how elemental damage works (it doesn't, except for cold) and you couldn't even remember the mechanics for the two most talked about skills in the game (fists of thunder and meteor). You refused to address one of the most popular classes in both games (barbarian). I even made it easier on you by giving you links to skill calculators but you said you couldn't look at them and then started, in your frustration, to begin the personal attacks on me so...

...that's not me being dense, that's *you* complaining about something that you don't even fully understand.

 

[stevedave]

I hate myself for continuing to post in this thread.

Auction house is near irrelevant to the game.

Biggest issue is items and how they build the characters.

some quick minor item fixes to make huge improvements:
1. Limit class specific gear to the stats the class uses.
2. Remove double stating with STR, INT, DEX. You can only get 1 of these.
3. Use a infernal machine to re-roll 1 stat on an item.

Major overhalls in game design are rather unfeasible at this point but some could be:
1. remove class main stat and have each stat have a specific function that is a bit useful to all classes. an example would be INT raise spirit regen or max fury and shit like that
2. Synergies have them
3. Remove similar and useless skill and rebuild better skills with a variety attack functionality.....wizard shouldn't have 3 beam attacks.


This is just off the top of my head there are near endless improvements that would change this game for the better.

 

[TwistedAegis]

When did I say they were alike?
I said his suggestions were like the D3 system.

I asked him how he'd fix the D3 system more in line with D2's and he couldn't even explain the differences. Instead he said he'd make skills +1 upon leveling and then base the rest of the DPS on gear!




This is how you "attempt" to explain something...you refuse to provide any details and then start to insult me with some variation on how dumb I am for not understanding what's obvious to you! You can't explain it because you don't have a good idea of what you're talking about. The only thing that is obvious to you is that you don't like the game. That's your choice, for sure, but don't inject your opinion into every diablo thread and insult people who are enjoying the game if that's all you're going to bring to the discussion. I don't go into every (or any) POE thread and shit all over it. What's your deal, dude?

I asked you to design *one* skill so I could have an example and you can't do it. That's how difficult it is to do. Expecting the Blizzard team to redesign the entire game into something you can't even clearly define for yourself is unrealistic.

So far you've admitted that you don't know how elemental damage works (it doesn't, except for cold) and you couldn't even remember the mechanics for the two most talked about skills in the game (fists of thunder and meteor). You refused to address one of the most popular classes in both games (barbarian). I even made it easier on you by giving you links to skill calculators but you said you couldn't look at them and then started, in your frustration, to begin the personal attacks on me so...

...that's not me being dense, that's *you* complaining about something that you don't even fully understand.

Use the D2 skill system. It's what I said and you continue to harp on redesigning one skill. I'm not going to assign specific values. If you fail to comprehend what I mean by - add more base damage assigned to meteor, rather than deriving the majority of the damage from the weapon - I can't help you.

 

[Aix.]

It's the same two people--you and Aix from the other thread and occasionally dremic

if you three want to pal around on the boards that's fine but don't for a minute think it justifies your lack of explanation

I remember brainstorming about how melee DH skills should synergize with various melee weapon types so that there'd be some upside to choosing a dagger (for example) instead of a hand crossbow. And you argued this for two pages:

in those five seconds of brainstorming didn't it occur to you that having to choose between a crossbow with class specific bonuses or a sub-optimal dagger meant that a) apparently weapon type *does* matter and b) you needed to search for a better dagger?

Then you tried to argue that weapon choices do matter because I could be choosing between a weapon that had "the chill mechanic" and one that did not...

Secondly, the chill mechanic (and your own words pointing out that certain bows have select demon hunter bonuses) demonstrates that clearly weapon choices *do* matter. One can not simply compare raw DPS and conclude that this is the only metric by which to evaluate a weapon.

Then after another wall of text you proved once and for all that you had no idea what I was even talking about in the first place:

They do interact. The fact that you haven't found a particular dagger to interact with the skills you want to use isn't proof of anything other than you haven't yet found a dagger that suits you.

Because apparently there's a mythical DH melee weapon that makes non-bow skills work differently when you use it, but I just haven't found it.

But apparently the quote below is a "build" I could do, if only I had the imagination to cook up such madness!

What he can do right now, without any effort from Blizzard's end, is find a dagger with a freeze proc and high crit *chance* and stack crit and run around melee'ing enemies and one-shotting them when they shatter. DPS would figure very little in that scenario. But he either doesn't want to learn about the game mechanics at a deep level and dig through his skills and/or can't bring himself to use a weapon that suits his play style better even though it has a lower DPS tag on the header.

But that isn't Blizzard's fault.

 

[mope54]

For those interested who can't follow the links I provided earlier:

D2

D3

 

[cageymaru]

This is like the conversation where we were talking about making weapon specific attacks and some people didn't understand why a Wizard looked odd with a 2hnd mace casting frost beams halfway across the map. Some people like certain things to stay the same no matter how weird they are. If you make a suggestion on how to make it more appealing to others they will vehemently fight against your logic to the bitter end.

 

[Krenum]

And the absolute number one reason Diablo 3 is a turd is.....................................



You can stun bosses.