Is it time for Nvidia to support Freesync?

Discussion in 'Video Cards' started by H-street, Sep 24, 2017.

  1. H-street

    H-street [H]ardness Supreme

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    I was in the market for a new monitor and I will say the sheer number of monitors that support freesync now is insane.. I ended up getting the Samsung 34CF791 (absolutely amazing curved monitor) and all I could think of is it really would be nice to its customers if Nvidia would support this..

    regardless of what they think or how they are selling GSync (my 4k MSI laptop with the 1080 has the Gsync monitor) I just can't help but feel they are not support to just not support it.
     
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  2. sirmonkey1985

    sirmonkey1985 [H]ard|DCer of the Month - July 2010

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    i understand their reasoning but i wish they'd just admit their solution sucked and move on from their proprietary bs because gsync isn't a selling point for their gpu's in my opinion.. i mean hell i still bought a freesync monitor knowing i couldn't use the feature with my 1050ti because i refuse to pay 100+ dollars extra for the same monitor just to have 60hz gsync when i can still use the 75hz support on my current monitor even without using freesync.
     
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  3. H-street

    H-street [H]ardness Supreme

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    that was the same boat I was in this weekend.. an extra 300$ or more for the GSync monitor of the same thing..

    I got a freesync well.. because all of the monitors I was looking at (Ulta wide) pretty much had freesync.. I didn't really have an option to get one without it.
     
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  4. Maddness

    Maddness [H]ard|Gawd

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    It would be great for the consumer if they did. Would also be another very large nail in the coffin that is Vega if they did. I'll bet AMD hopes they don't, that's for sure.
     
  5. Iching

    Iching [H]ard|Gawd

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    AMD fanboys at it again. G-sync is just better.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
  6. Archaea

    Archaea [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I vote yes.

    Freesync monitors outnumber gsync monitors over 5:1 at newegg.
     
  7. sirmonkey1985

    sirmonkey1985 [H]ard|DCer of the Month - July 2010

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    this has nothing to do with being a fanboy.. this is essentially the VHS vs betamax or bluray vs HD-DVD for a more recent comparison.. take a guess where gsync falls into this.
     
  8. Vittra

    Vittra Gawd

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    Does Freesync now offer operation throughout the entire monitors refresh range, or is it still limited to the monitor's scalar leading to a narrow range of operation?

    My understanding based on when Freesync 2 was announced was that it would be the only option to circumvent this limitation because of forced LFC support.
     
  9. GotNoRice

    GotNoRice [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Yeah, shame on Nvidia for basically making people have to choose their monitor based on which GPU brand they are using. Even if Gsync is a "better" solution than freesync, there is NO reason for nvidia to not also support open-source freesync other than their tendency to latch onto proprietary BS and pat themselves on the back about it.
     
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  10. KazeoHin

    KazeoHin [H]ardness Supreme

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    Nvidia won't support Freesync at any point unless AMD's cards somehow manage to become competitive again.
     
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  11. Maddness

    Maddness [H]ard|Gawd

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    It's still limited. It is currently the biggest pitfall of freesync.
     
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  12. Shintai

    Shintai [H]ardness Supreme

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    Freesync 2 will have a much higher cost with its requirements. Freesync doesn't have a set quality demand.

    So you can pick between discount sync or good one. Welcome to reality.

    And with AMDs fast declining share and Intel not supporting Freesync. Gsync already won.
     
  13. Nightfire

    Nightfire [H]ard|Gawd

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    XBX1X support of Freesync definitely helps its 'share.
     
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  14. KazeoHin

    KazeoHin [H]ardness Supreme

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    It supports adaptive refresh over HDMI 2.0, NOT AMD FreeSync™®©.

    That will help make adaptive refreshing a much more mainstream feature, killing the GSync tax's perceived necessity. But it won't help AMD one bit.
     
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  15. kasakka

    kasakka Gawd

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    With G-Sync I appreciate that buying almost any G-Sync display means I get the same set of features and performance (e.g. ULMB on 120+ Hz displays on so on) instead of vendor-specific implementations. That said, Nvidia should still support FreeSync. That would not stop me from buying G-Sync displays but would give me some options to consider as it doesn't look like I'll buy an AMD GPU anytime soon with the products they are putting out.
     
  16. Archaea

    Archaea [H]ardForum Junkie

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    This is rubbish.

    Xbox Scorpio supports freesync - meaning freesync will likely make its way into the HDTV world.

    Intel doesn't have gaming cards --- so that's a moot point. They don't support gsync either.

    G-sync isn't a superior technology. It's subjectively equal by all testing I've read. The idea it requires proprietary hardware on the order of $200 to be equal to something that is open source and free actually makes it inferior.
     
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  17. Archaea

    Archaea [H]ardForum Junkie

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  18. DanNeely

    DanNeely 2[H]4U

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    Should they? Arguably yes. Even if GSYNC remains marginally better as a halo feature, by being nearly-free freesync would still be an upgrade for the much larger segment of more budget conscientious gamers.

    Will they? Not unless it becomes a mandatory part of the displayport or HDMI standards instead of being optional.
     
  19. THUMPer

    THUMPer I Sit in Stink

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    https://www.benqdirect.com/xl2730-esports-monitor.html
    This monitors fresync range is 40-144. How is that Narrow? I would say some monitors 45-90hz is narrow...
     
  20. noko

    noko [H]ardness Supreme

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    NVidia could at any point support Freesync or Adaptive Sync - they choose not to. What they have I do not consider significantly better than Adaptive Sync if better at all. NVidia could care less about their users getting a better experience with a higher quality panel but yet cheaper price over a GSync monitor - they can just get more money from you now and later down the line on you buying another NVidia card. In short greed outweigh you as a customer.
     
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  21. Armenius

    Armenius I Drive Myself to the [H]ospital

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    VESA Adaptive-Sync? Yes, sure, why not. NVIDIA already supports it on their mobile GPUs, so no reason why they couldn't add it for desktop.

    AMD Freesync? Why would NVIDIA support the software driver that only works on their competitor's hardware? It's inferior to G-Sync, anyway.
     
  22. Gideon

    Gideon [H]ard|Gawd

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    There is no good reason for Nvidia to not support it, other then they want the money G-Sync gains them. Yet the stupid part is it would hurt AMD if they did adopt it.
     
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  23. Algrim

    Algrim [H]ard|Gawd

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    Considering how many people were waiting for Vega because of FreeSync monitors I would hazard a guess that AMD/RTG is pretty happy that nVidia does not support FreeSync. :whistle:
     
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  24. Brian_B

    Brian_B 2[H]4U

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    I agree - nVidia supporting Freesync (or VESA Adapative Refresh under a "GSync Lite" moniker or something) would do more harm to AMD than anything else nVidia could do right now.

    Half of AMD's case about Vega (I remember reading at Kyle's pre-release blindfold testing) was that, using Vega + Freesync was so much cheaper than using nVidia + GSync. If nVidia also supported the VESA standard and worked on Freesync monitors, that would entirely cut out AMD's business case for Vega.

    There's nothing preventing nVidia from doing that except nVidia right now. I think they enjoy licensing the GSync modules, and they get tighter control over what monitors get supported. I wish they would support VESA standard, and honestly I can't really understand why they don't support it.

    Seems like something similar happened with SLI/CFX - nVidia would only allow x8/x8 motherboards to license SLI (which, in the beginning, happened to include motherboards with nVidia chipsets), AMD would let anyone run CFX (and a lot of motherboards would do it at x4 or worse).
     
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  25. jhatfie

    jhatfie [H]ard|Gawd

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    Maybe Nvidia should consider adding support for Freesync in their lower tier products, like the 1070 or below and only GSync for premium products for all the people that seem to love to spend $$ on anyway, so they should have no problem spending $100's extra on a Gsync specific monitor.
     
  26. Chris_B

    Chris_B [H]ardness Supreme

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    Didn't realise you could put it around fish.
     
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  27. Archaea

    Archaea [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Definitive reference?
     
  28. RanceJustice

    RanceJustice [H]ardness Supreme

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    I generally find AMD to be more customer friendly and it affects my buying decisions significantly. This is another great example of how Nvidia falls short, always preferring the proprietary and expensive to affordable, open standards. I'd love to see Nvidia give up on their proprietary crap, from PhysX to Gsync to CUDA to GameWorks and ShadowPlay / GeForce Experience, instead embracing open standards - they'd be able to take away one of their competitor's strong points if they did so, likely without losing much.

    However, even looking at it from an unscrupulous, greedy perspective, it doesn't make sense for Nvidia not to support FreeSync / VESA Adaptive Sync. As others mention it would be a major blow against AMD to support it under a Gsync Light moniker or something similar. They could still push their Gsync monitors but also be able to lord it over AMD that they support a FreeSync-like experience on all those monitors. Its a disappointment they can't even support an open standard properly because they refuse to do anything they can't control top to bottom. With some relatively small, low cost changes to their policies they could really be so much friendlier to their customers and sell more of their products; products which are good enough to purchase on their merits much of the time (when they're not pulling greedy GTX 970 3.5gb crap), so they don't need this kind of lock in environment
     
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  29. Brackle

    Brackle Old Timer

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    IMO G-sync will die just like 3D gaming and 3D monitor Nvidia tried to push. It will eventually die off. Now do I think G-sync is better overall? Possibly, but Adaptive-sync (Freesync) will eventually take over. Nvidia cannot stop Intel Graphics. Remember Intel is the #1 shipper of video card devices (on-board). Basically they are the ones who will kill off G-sync.
     
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  30. Brian_B

    Brian_B 2[H]4U

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    Well, back in 2015, Intel did say they would support the VESA Adaptive Refresh spec, possibly beginning with the IGP as soon as Kaby Lake. Which, in my limited understanding, means it's not "AMD Branded Freesync", but does mean that it should work with Freesync-compatible displays?

    Thing is, Kaby has come, and it's successor was just announced today. If I'm not mistaken, Coffee Lake has the same IGP package as Kaby did though.

    I haven't heard anything from Intel since 2015 regarding support, and I would imagine it would have been yet another important marketing bulletpoint that would have been touted.

    So I guess we'll see what Cannon Lake brings to the table.

    I'm not holding my breath about it, and even if they do, I don't particularly care about it, as I don't game on Intel IGP. Intel is the leading graphics provider, because they include it inside of nearly every CPU they sell. That doesn't necessarily mean it's the most commonly used graphics provider, particularly in gaming. Steam Hardware Surveys will show you how that works out in the gaming world.

    In my experience businesses and low end PCs are leaning on Intel IGP, because you don't need anything that sophisticated to drive Windows and most office/web content - but those aren't really going to see any particular benefit of adaptive sync either. Maybe a bit better battery life in a laptop, maybe?

    Intel adoption of VESA standards would be a marketing bulletpoint, both for AMD and Intel, but won't do anything to actually move the needle one way or another on adaptive sync adoption.

    As far as GSync dying - I don't know. PhysX is still around, although not exactly prominent like it once was now that's it's rolled in with GameWorks. I agree that nVidia should support the VESA standard on all GPUs, and bill GSync as a premium experience with selected and tightly integrated monitors.

    nVidia is already billing GSync as that premium experience, but they are missing out on the benefits of Adaptive Sync for their customers that will have monitors at price points that match their lower tier products.

    Will GSync die like 3D or other fads? I don't know - I don't think adaptive sync is going away. I think GSync will continue to evolve, and hopefully to some standard that doesn't require special hardware. But if anything could kill GSync, it will be nVidia themselves - a combination of commanding a higher price premium on a proprietary technology - people will only be willing to continue to do that if it presents a clearly superior experience. If Freesync continues to catch on (and a lot of that depends on FS2), with it being a VESA standard and coming at no extra cost on more and more monitors, that could push nVidia to evolve GSync - either lower the licensing price, and/or adopt the industry standard.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
  31. Archaea

    Archaea [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Freesync 2 standard is no longer free I thought. It requires a certification process that will help standardize the experience. The hardware is absent, but the cert will cost. Think THX as a concept. I think it's a bad move, personally. It once again further divides the market.
     
  32. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Freesync isn't free- it's just cheaper, because AMD halfassed the solution and then developed software to get it most of the way to G-Sync.

    Freesync 2, which raises the standards, will be even less 'free'.

    And I can think of one big reason for Nvidia to not support AMD's Freesync: they developed the technology, and their version is still superior in implementation. Maybe they'll even get the cost down to parity with Freesync.


    [and HDMI VRR, while modeled after Freesync, is something else; I wonder if Nvidia will support this to get around supporting an AMD imitation of their technology directly]
     
  33. chenw

    chenw 2[H]4U

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    My stance on nVidia supporting FreeSync is this, and it hasn't changed at all:

    As much as I want nVidia support FreeSync as much as the next guy, right now one of the biggest lifeboats AMD has with respect to their GPU is FreeSync. The fact that most monitors costs cheaper, and AMD has competitive offerings in its own segments against nVidia are large factors in AMD's favour, nVidia supporting FreeSync will take the few precious advantages AMD has remaining, and the fact that it's an open standard means that every monitor manufacturers can make their own hardware, which helps drive down prices of such monitors, so AMD has the "similar experience at a cheaper cost" card in its hand.

    If nVidia supports FreeSync, then following will occur:

    1. G-Sync holdouts/reject nVidia owners will be more inclined to try FreeSync out as there is no longer the stigma of premium, and every FreeSync monitor sold, AMD gets zilch, it benefits the monitor makers and nVidia. IE they will now have less reason to use AMD GPUs to try FreeSync.
    2. FreeSync monitor owners are now no longer forced to use AMD's GPUs, which may not matter in the mainstream, but the high end market will suffer, and in the longer term, so will the mainstream, because nVidia's next microarch will undoubtedly arrive faster than AMD's, and there is a very good chance that it'll be better too, so AMD's market will bleed even more.

    Both of these makes situation worse, and AMD may eventually abandon GPU market completely, and lead to nVidia forcibly spin off its GPU due to anti-monopoly measures, which is BAD for nVidia and consumers in general in the longer term.

    However, FreeSync 2 might already do it for them if licensing fee is true, since that would basically make G-Sync and FreeSync on equal footing, which is BAD for AMD.
     
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  34. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    You do realize that if AMD were in the dominant position (not that that's happened as long as they've had a graphics division) that they'd do the exact same thing, right?
     
  35. Archaea

    Archaea [H]ardForum Junkie

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    What's the specific cost of Freesync?

    What source do you have that says G-sync is superior to Freesync.

    Three people in this thread have said G-Sync is superior to Freesync - and not one source or reference to back that up.
     
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  36. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    More than no variable v-sync.

    Implementation, and of course, standards, given all of the halfassed Freesync implementations. Also, you have to run inferior AMD hardware to use Freesync over DP.
     
  37. Archaea

    Archaea [H]ardForum Junkie

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    In other words you don't know the cost of freesync and you have no specifics as to why G-Sync is better

    Got it.
     
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  38. chenw

    chenw 2[H]4U

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    Arguing whether FreeSync is 'free' or not is ultimately a fruitless exercise because we, as consumers, do not care how much something costs to produce, only how much the end product comes out.

    FreeSync, being more open, opens up possibilities that manufacturers implement their own features or freedom to cut corners than G-Sync, since nVidia have a much tigher control over it, which is the main argument at stake here, not whether FreeSync is actually 'free' (because we as consumer do not care beyond being an argument bait), especially since we don't have no-sync versions of those monitors to compare them to.
     
  39. Archaea

    Archaea [H]ardForum Junkie

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    We do care because the same monitor with gsync costs at least ~$200 more than that same monitor with freesync. I gave specific examples fairly recently in another post. It isn't hard to figure out got to Newegg. Spend 5 minutes there comparing monitors and feature sets.

    Maybe you don't care if your monitor costs you $200 more in the end. I do. I use three matching monitors. That's $600. And ultimately right now... at this moment. freesync has better premium display options. There is no gsync with quantum dots panel released yet, nor is there any gsync 38" panel.

    I bought my three freesync Omen 32" 1440p monitors for $300 each, new direct from hp.com

    I'd gladly move back to Nvidia because I'm not pleased with buggy Vega drivers right now and I have a pair of.1080ti mining. But freesync with a single Vega at 75hz presents a smoother gaming experience than 60hz vsync on my omens, and I've been looking for some equitable gsync monitors but there are none to be had for anywhere near the same pricepont that I picked up the HP Omens.


    I was calling out idiotincharge for making specific statements without specifics.

    If freesync isn't free, where's proof it costs?

    If g-sync is better where are specific tests objective and subjective showing that to be the case. I've looked for them. I can't find them.

    I'd gladly use My Nvidia cards with my freesync monitors if Nvidia supported freesync. Since that is unlikely I'm either going to wait till the next iteration of gsync monitors releases or vega's drivers improve. At this precise moment I'm pretty stuck. I don't see anything in gsync i think is a worthwhile improvement over my omens and Vega drivers are a buggy underwhelming hot mess. PUBG performance is dismal, and I've had 5 lock ups with Vega in about 6 hours of gametime. I know PUBG isn't very AMD friendly, but that's what I'm playing right now, and it'd be great if it worked or as reliable. I get massive slowdowns and crashes. 90FPS then 8FPS. Stuttery jumping vehicles, red lockup screens 30-40Fps sections. Just nonsense in the current drivers.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
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  40. Maddness

    Maddness [H]ard|Gawd

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    I think on average the only difference is the sync range. G-Sync generally has a much lower end and higher end range. Where as quite a few Freesync monitors range only goes to 75hz. That is a limitation that Freesync 2 should change.