Is ghosting in VA panels this bad?

Opus131

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I'm on the market for a new monitor and wanted to give VA a go since they are so cheap. I saw the
Samsung C27JG52 at 280 euros on amazon it's just too good to pass up (for some reason the MSI equivalent is 400 euros even though it's basically the same exact monitor, i'm guess European market shenanigans), HOWEVER, if this is what i'm going to get i'm not so sure anymore.

The only real alternative is the Asus VG279Q which is about 320 euros and is 1080p, but it's IPS. I think there's a similar LG monitor that came out recently which was about 350 but i think it's more or less the same thing.

I remember reading some things about VA and how ghosting wasn't noticeable on some people but you have to be blind not to see that. Is this a bad unit? How noticeable is it really?
 

Opus131

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Wow. It's not just the purple trailing the whole picture shifts color when he moves. That's dreadful. Are you sure the problem he is showing isn't exaggerated compared to other VA panels? I don't see how anybody could play games on that.
 

Opus131

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I just read the description of the video and he says the trailing is gone now that he turned FreeSync off. So it doesn't necessarily have to be that bad.
 

Opus131

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Bad VA monitors do this. Good VA monitors do this much less.
An option would be the Samsung C27HG70, at 327 euros. It's older but is the "higher end" version of the monitor i was looking at.

The cheapest 1440p IPS monitor is like 500 euros i don't know if it's worth the price difference just for a little trail on images. Plus i wanted to try the better contrast and the lack of IPS glow for a change, see if i like that better.

There's a store where i live that has the MSI equivalent and i found the screen to be quite grainy compared to my IPS monitor. Is this normal for VA panels too? Reminds of my old TN monitor. The bastards didn't allow me to try the monitor or play some games, it just had their little stupid app playing which told me absolutely nothing about ghosting or smearing.
 

l88bastard

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In all fairness, tearing doesn't bother that much, not like it bothers some that have to have 144Mhz or bust, etc.
What tearing with OLED? The C9's have VRR baked in HDMI 2.1 and the overpriced Alienware 55 has VRR.
 

l88bastard

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https://www.anandtech.com/show/14123/asus-proart-pq22uc-4k-oled-monitor-5150-usd

Ye thanks, but this is the wrong tread to be talking about something you'd need to sell your kidneys for to get it.

I'll definitely buy OLED when you don't need to mortgage your house to get one, heh.
Really?

#1 that 21" 60hz proart OLED is a fucking joke.

#2 A 55" C9 can be had for less than $1400 now, which is pretty close to the price point of the POS 43" VA dogshit BGR panels!

#3 You don't need to sell a kidney to afford the Alienware 55. You just need to sell your ass on the side of a road for a week or two!
 

Immolation1991

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i think the problem in the video is the forced ultimate mode when you turn on freensync, which forces highest overdrive setting in osd. The video looks more like overshoot on bright shades from aggresive overdrive. VA ghosting is mainly black and dark shade smearing. Thats also why the poster said it is much better with freesync off.
 

cjcox

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What tearing with OLED? The C9's have VRR baked in HDMI 2.1 and the overpriced Alienware 55 has VRR.
If you have a card that supports VRR, I guess it's not so bad. Still limited to just 120Hz though. Again, this it not a big deal to me. The 55" min size could be a problem for some though (that's pretty honking big).

I guess we might all be wanting (waiting) something a bit better with Gsync and Freesync support and possibly VRR with high refresh but maybe in the 24 - 32" range (??) And maybe less than $800 (??)

(waiting)
 

Opus131

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I guess i'll have to try it myself.

One question, maybe you guys know. What would be a better option, the Samsung C27HG70 or the new Samsung C27JG56? The C27HG70 is older but it was supposed be the "higher end" version compared to the C27JG50/52, where as the C27JG56 is an updated version of the latter, which includes Freesync among other things (the older ones didn't because why not, hey Samsung? Not like implementing Freesync costs little money or anything). So it's a toss up between an older but higher end model versus a new update version of a lower end one. Price is the same. I'm betting on the C27HG7 but, you never know, maybe the C27JG56 has some special thing about it i should know (can't even find reviews on it, but there's a very extensive one on TFT Central on the C27HG70).
 

Opus131

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Found a very good video review of the monitor:


Ghosting doesn't seem to be anywhere near as bad as what i saw in the original video.

I think i'll just go for the C27HG70. I don't think those defects are enough to justify spending 150+ euros to get the IPS equivalent, all though i guess i won't know until i try it.
 
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MaZa

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I still have Eizo FG2421 120hz VA panel and while it has plenty of problems ghosting is not one of them, especially when you turn on the 240hz backlight scanning. It is probably not as fast as equivalent TN but the picture is still clear on fast motion. VA can be fast, just not as fast as TN or OLED.
 

Comixbooks

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I want to try one of th he smaller 24 inch Samsung Qled VA panels even if they are 1080p still.would like to see if they are any good. Even though I wish they were 1440p.
 

kasakka

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Modern TN is world better than the TN of old.
I used the ASUS PG278Q for years. It was one of the first 8-bit TN high refresh rate 1440p panels on the market and it was so, so much better than I had experienced in cheap monitors and laptops. Viewing angles were mostly not an issue and the display still has very good input lag and response times despite being about 5 years old. It did sRGB perfectly fine but a lot of people thought it looked "dull" because it didn't have the oversaturated colors of higher gamut IPS and VA displays.

I now have a QLED VA panel Samsung CRG9. Same resolution except it's essentially two 27" monitors side by side. Compared to the ASUS it has markedly better contrast and of course no viewing angle issues when looking at it head on. Standing up or moving to the side of course causes contrast shifts but who the hell looks at monitors like that? I think Samsung did a really good job with this panel because I haven't had any real issues with dark scenes smearing on it or anything. Being curved also helps bring it closer from the sides.

Right now the biggest issue with VA is dark transitions and those vary from display to display, from perfectly fine to completely awful. If future VA panels manage to get that resolved they will be the next best thing to OLED for most tasks. At the same time every display should allow selecting the response time option when using Freesync because you might want to make the compromise of overshoot vs faster response time. Even my CRG9 locks the response time option when Freesync is enabled.

I really wish TV manufacturers jumped on the ultrawide train so we could get OLED TVs in formats that are more desktop friendly since they don't seem to want to make anything truly smaller. Even though my CRG9 is as wide as a 55" TV, because it's nowhere near as tall it's perfectly manageable and comfortable to look at since you don't have to crane your head to look at corners, only some side to side movement. A 55" TV is about the equivalent of two of these stacked on top of each other at a worse horizontal resolution. That's just too much for desktop unless you can put it further away from you so you see the screen comfortably.
 

ors

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Short answer: Yes, it is that bad, can be somewhat better but also much worse. I am yet to see a VA with no ghosting issues, used IPS screens before and never had any noticable artifacts on those (at 60hz), tried a few VAs since and all had some ghosting, one even worse than the one in the video. VA screens are very slow with some transitions, these spikes are what cause the visible ghosting, while on average they are close to IPS, IPS has much smaller spikes (difference between best and worst). In my opinion VA is great for office and that is it. If you want an allrounder with good colors you go IPS, if you want fastest without caring about colors you go TN and if you have too much money to spend you go OLED (currently high initial cost + because the burn in, you will be buying a new one sooner).
 

Opus131

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Well, i got cold feet and got this instead:

https://www.amazon.it/gp/product/B07QDNHCJY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

But now it seems i have another issue, 1080p on 27 is... well, less tolerable than i expected. It's funny because people always talk about pixels being the issue, but i don't see pixels, just washed out text. It's like the kind of thing you'd get if your pen was going out of ink while writing. It also kinda looks like what you get when looking at text when running a non native resolution. Not as bad, but it's really bothering me.

The problem is that 1440p IPS screens are just way too expensive:

https://www.amazon.it/Acer-XF270HUA-LCD-Monitor-Nero/dp/B01IHFIVQ4/ref=sr_1_64?__mk_it_IT=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&keywords=wqhd+144hz&qid=1561970693&s=gateway&sr=8-64

I'm thinking of buying the VA panel also and compare the two and return the one that annoys them the most.

BTW, anybody knows is VA are easier on the eyes?

https://ledstrain.org/d/379-eyestrain-solved-after-6-years-and-multiple-panels-lg-32gk850g

I can't afford the panel mentioned in this thread, but i'm wondering if this is a characteristic of VA itself in general. Nobody seemed able to answer that in the discussion they were having.
 

kasakka

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BTW, anybody knows is VA are easier on the eyes?

https://ledstrain.org/d/379-eyestrain-solved-after-6-years-and-multiple-panels-lg-32gk850g

I can't afford the panel mentioned in this thread, but i'm wondering if this is a characteristic of VA itself in general. Nobody seemed able to answer that in the discussion they were having.
No display type is easier on the eyes in itself. CRT is probably worst as if it is improperly configured it can have too low refresh rate or be out of focus. The rest depends on individual displays, for example some are sensitive to PWM flicker found on some displays and if you run with very high brightness in a dark room it can cause eyestrain too. If the text is too small to read it can cause you to squint or lean forward so you get either muscle or eye strain. In short just a lot of factors that can contribute to eye strain that cannot be directly attributed to a panel type.

Ghosting is usually a result of too high response times or too much display overdrive overshoot. High response time will contribute to motion blur and VAs drawback is specifically dark transitions so in dark scenes you may see more motion blur also described as "smearing" because the pixels don't transition fast enough. How much depends on the display. High overshoot on the other hand will cause inverse ghosting which is light halos around moving objects.

Individual display models have varyingly good or bad performance so again you can't extrapolate ghosting or smearing to every VA panel just like viewing angle issues in TN panels are less severe on better, more expensive panels.

With displays it's best to consider them as a long term purchase. I had my past display for about 5 years and it's now going to be in use probably for another 5 as my girlfriend's display.
 

gamerk2

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OLED is Gods Tears burning themselves into your display.
Person who doesn't own an OLED: Burn in is a problem.

Person who owns an OLED: Burn in is only a problem is you are stupid.

Person who doesn't own an OLED: You wrong, I right.

Person who owns an OLED: *facepalm*
 

ors

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The problem is that 1440p IPS screens are just way too expensive
Was true few years ago, not anymore, unless you also need very high refresh rate. I for one am perfectly happy with 60hz for my usecase. I prefer higher dpi over higher refresh anyday. The 60hz, and nowadays also some 75hz 1440p IPS screens are quite affordable (27 or 32 inch https://www.newegg.com/acer-um-je2aa-005-31-5-wqhd/p/0JC-000P-007P5, https://www.amazon.com/ASUS-PB277Q-WQHD-2560x1440-Monitor/dp/B01EN3Z7QQ, ).

Regarding VA, they vary, but even the best panels have visible artifacts where even the cheaper IPS screens don't. At least from my experience.
 

Opus131

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unless you also need very high refresh rate.
I do. Switching to 144hz for me was a big game changer, pardon the pun.

I just don't get why i can get a 27 144hz IPS monitor for 280 euros and the next resolution up is almost twice the price. I could have understood maybe 100 euros more, but not 200+.

Man i just hate being poor.
 

Comixbooks

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Well, i got cold feet and got this instead:

https://www.amazon.it/gp/product/B07QDNHCJY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

But now it seems i have another issue, 1080p on 27 is... well, less tolerable than i expected. It's funny because people always talk about pixels being the issue, but i don't see pixels, just washed out text. It's like the kind of thing you'd get if your pen was going out of ink while writing. It also kinda looks like what you get when looking at text when running a non native resolution. Not as bad, but it's really bothering me.

The problem is that 1440p IPS screens are just way too expensive:

https://www.amazon.it/Acer-XF270HUA-LCD-Monitor-Nero/dp/B01IHFIVQ4/ref=sr_1_64?__mk_it_IT=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&keywords=wqhd+144hz&qid=1561970693&s=gateway&sr=8-64

I'm thinking of buying the VA panel also and compare the two and return the one that annoys them the most.

BTW, anybody knows is VA are easier on the eyes?

https://ledstrain.org/d/379-eyestrain-solved-after-6-years-and-multiple-panels-lg-32gk850g

I can't afford the panel mentioned in this thread, but i'm wondering if this is a characteristic of VA itself in general. Nobody seemed able to answer that in the discussion they were having.

That is interesting that a LG Va panel is easier on the eyes I found Ips panels harder on the eyes than TN I owned about 3 or 4 different Ips panels and always thought they harsh face would melt which is why I own all TNs.

I'm going to pull the plug on a Samsung Qled see how it works I know people return monitors like a hobby but I usually keep and sell them later on.
 

Opus131

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Please, report back on the ghosting crap.

This is the monitor mentioned in that thread:

https://www.amazon.it/LG-Products-32-gk850-F-B-Monitor-31-5-inches/dp/B0798QPYMF/ref=sr_1_2?__mk_it_IT=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&keywords=27GL850&qid=1569404296&s=pc&smid=A11IL2PNWYJU7H&sr=1-2

Pretty tempting, even though it's right out of my budget range. I currently own a 480 4GB video card, was saving up for a 5700 XT, but maybe i can post-pone that purchase and get this thing first. EXCEPT, maybe 32" is too much? 1440p on 32 is the same DPI as 1080p on 24 which is what i had so i guess that ought to be good enough, but that size. Why don't they make this exact panel at 27 inch? I'm looking at the LG line up and it's all over the place. Only thing i'd like to report is that i haven't found a single problem with LG monitors yet. Could be luck but the LG i just got has NO light bleed whatsoever, not even a spec, just the usual glow typical of IPS screens. Would be sad to return it just for that.
 

ors

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EXCEPT, maybe 32" is too much?
In my opinion 32 16:9 is the sweetspot height wise, wouldn't mind a bit more width. I actually own 2 such screens, one 1440p VA and one 4k, both bought for office work (programming). The 1440p one has minor ghosting, the 4k one major ghosting, for programming the 4k is better since text rendering is much better in high dpi screens.

Regarding the one you posted, seems to be one of the better VAs ghosting wise ( ). You will probably still get some ghosting/flicker on vegetation in games like Skyrim.
 

Opus131

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The long video review i posted seems to suggest the Gsync version is better than the Freesync one in that respect, which is a bummer because Nvidia cards are just too expensive where i live, about 150 euros more than AMD for equal frame rate values.

The same reviewer suggested to get the Samsung C27HG70 instead of the Freesync version of that monitor since response times are closer compared to the the Gsync version of the LG panel and the Samsung has better HDR rating (though still in the "not so good" category) and i suppose higher DPI.

It's also much cheaper, about 120-150 euros less. Hard decisions for the financially derelict.

I think i'll return the IPS though. The DPI is just too low, didn't expect to bother me as much as it does, not the least because the difference with my old 23 1080p monitor is quite subtle. I have a friend who uses a 42 inch TV at 1080p as his desktop PC monitor (don't ask), and you can really see the pixels there, where as on this 1080p 27 inch it's not really that obviously pixelated, everything just has this "fuzzy" sheen on top of it that i sometimes see, sometimes not.

My only reservation about the Samsung is the curve. Ok, maybe it looks good on things like shooters, but those are not the only games i play. How would it look with a top down RPG? What about the desktop? Would windows look curved and warped? What about movies? Would they look weird being all bent?
 
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kalston

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You will get used to the curve very quickly, it's subtle. You certainly won't notice anything looking weird on the desktop or anywhere else. Curves don't do any harm if you are sitting right in front of the screen and not too far away (how much they help is a matter of debate, still).
 

Opus131

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Well, i got a chance to try a VA at a local story, the MSI RGB one. 2k is glorious, and the ghosting didn't seem much, all though the only game i could try is Quake and Doom which i brought from home on a pen drive, maybe those don't count.

HOWEVER, holy mother of God the black crush. It was pretty bad to be honest. Probably rendered worse by the unholy glare of the store's lighting, but man, on Quake which is full of shadows i could see harsh black botches everywhere, it was pretty bad to look at. Not sure why nobody talks about it.
 
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Comixbooks

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I have no idea if I want to buy one of these now. 1080P is the deal breaker for me and the ghosting.
 

kalston

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Well, i got a chance to try a VA at a local story, the MSI RGB one. 2k is glorious, and the ghosting didn't seem much, all though the only game i could try is Quake and Doom which i brought from home on a pen drive, maybe those don't count.

HOWEVER, holy mother of God the black crush. It was pretty bad to be honest. Probably rendered worse by the unholy glare of the store's lighting, but man, on Quake which is full of shadows i could see harsh black botches everywhere, it was pretty bad to look at. Not sure why nobody talks about it.
It's an issue with some VA panels yes. It requires careful calibration by the manufacturer. Mine is completely fine for example (I know you don't like 1080p@27" but it's just an example of a good VA screen out of the box). Mind you I do notice and hate the ghosting on it.
 
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Opus131

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I don't know, it's a toss up between getting used to a crappy desktop, but games are good, or crappy games (ghosting etc), but good looking desktop. OR, sell a kidney and get a 2k IPS 144hz screen.
 

MaZa

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Well, i got a chance to try a VA at a local story, the MSI RGB one. 2k is glorious, and the ghosting didn't seem much, all though the only game i could try is Quake and Doom which i brought from home on a pen drive, maybe those don't count.

HOWEVER, holy mother of God the black crush. It was pretty bad to be honest. Probably rendered worse by the unholy glare of the store's lighting, but man, on Quake which is full of shadows i could see harsh black botches everywhere, it was pretty bad to look at. Not sure why nobody talks about it.
Black crush is a calibration issue. Combined with two bright lights in a room.
 
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