Is ghosting in VA panels this bad?

Discussion in 'Displays' started by Opus131, Sep 9, 2019.

  1. kalston

    kalston Gawd

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    Yeah gaming IPS panels are really fast nowadays. I wouldn't compare even the better VA ones to that.

    Personally I'm fine with a fast VA panel up to around 100-120hz but the slower transitions often creep up and bother me no matter what still. I have decided to live with it for now though, because I like the alternatives even less.
     
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  2. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I haven't sold my VA -- it's not 'better', but I absolutely agree about not liking the alternatives.

    From my perspective, no display has reached 'good' yet. No display type is even close. Passable is as good as it gets, and I've been waiting for 'great' for decades now.
     
  3. MistaSparkul

    MistaSparkul [H]ard|Gawd

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    Acer XB270HU: upload_2019-10-1_13-37-35.png

    LG 32GK850G: upload_2019-10-1_13-38-13.png


    Average GtG without the slow black > grey transitions is 6.4ms while the IPS is 5.5ms. That is an average difference of only 1ms and I wouldn't consider that to be a big difference. Newer TN panels go down 2-3ms GtG average and that is indeed noticeable. Only the newer IPS found in the LG27GL850 would be in a different league when it comes to speed.
     
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  4. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    The problem here is that this is a mathematical average, not an average of what the user sees -- it's the same problem with say reporting average FPS from canned benchmarks versus looking at frametime output from actual playthroughs.


    In person, those red boxes on the VAs pixel transition measurement results chart show up all the time, and the whole image is less detailed with movement than with the IPS. And the IPS is still blurry with fast transitions to my eyes.
     
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  5. MistaSparkul

    MistaSparkul [H]ard|Gawd

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    You're probably right. TBH I did not own both of monitors during the same timeframe. I had already sold off the XB270HU long before I had bought the GK850G so I'm just basing this off my memory, it did not look significantly blurrier to me but perhaps if I DID have them side by side then I would be able to spot the differences. I do know that dropping down to a TN panel resulted in much less blur though so I've been sticking to that for online shooters.
     
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  6. Comixbooks

    Comixbooks Ignore Me

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    Picked up the CRG5 VA for about 200.00 shipped it looks just like a IPS panel the blacks are all there. If I had to chose between y 24" 1440P TN an and this 24" 1080P Samsung VA. I Mean one gives better detail the 1440P and the VA has better contrast and blacks both are equally good. Sorry I'm really tired up since yesterday.

    The Stand sucks big time on the Samsung VA I like to slide my monitors around. Put felt on the bottom of the legs.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2019
  7. Opus131

    Opus131 [H]Lite

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    Colors may look equally "vibrant" but they shouldn't be as accurate. This is why IPS is still king when it comes to critical graphic work. Now, for a gamer it may not mean much, but i'll say when i tried the VA on my local store i was able to pick up inconsistencies in the colors of the game i tried. I've been playing Doom for 20 years now and when i load it i've instantly recognized certain color differences. This might be more of a problem with modern games which go for a "realistic" look and shades of color need to be accurate or else the picture might start looking cartoony or surreal, but i guess i'll know when i try it. The 40+ minutes review of the Samsung i posted on page one here did make this point, all though in his opinion it wasn't really that bad of a difference.

    From what i understand, the G version is faster while the F version has better colors.

    3 more hours and i'll get my hands on the Samsung. Trying to get "used" to the LG but i can't. Games look great, desktop look like vaseline smeared dog piss. Movies look ok IPS glow is slightly less than the IPS i had but it's there. To be honest though i'm not a big movie person i'm more curious to see if the better contrast and lack of IPS glow improves things in games.

    I think i'll settle either on the Samsung or i'll keep the LG for games and set up a second monitor for the desktop. Not gonna risk dishing out my hard earned cash on a 2k IPS screen if it turns out it's just as blurry. Screw that crap.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2019
  8. Opus131

    Opus131 [H]Lite

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    Mmmh, so it seems the sharpness issue is a known one:

    https://www.overclock.net/forum/44-...1497-va-vs-ips-comparison-27-1440p-144hz.html

    Strange that people rarely discuss this. I feel this should be a critical aspect for anyone who is going to use a monitor on the PC (and why wouldn't you, consoles are probably better served by a TV). People should be raising much more of a stink until companies are forced to give us natural sharpness on anything intended to be used on a desktop. Just unacceptable.
     
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  9. Opus131

    Opus131 [H]Lite

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    Got the Samsung. First impression: can't see any blurring or ghosting, will have to try different games i guess. Picture has this translucent quality to it, feels like an old LCD screen from the early days, doesn't have the "solid" or "printed" feel of the IPS, if that makes sense. Colors tend to shift a bit even by the slightest movement, and seem worse than the IPS in quality, will have to do some fiddling with the setting. Text is, by the mercy of God and all his glory, NOT blurry. 1440p is smaller than i expected for a 27, but not so much that i feel the need to use the Widows scaling. Yet anyway.

    Tune in for more impressions.
     
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  10. ors

    ors Limp Gawd

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    It isn't the average, but those red spikes that make VA worse.

    Try skyrim, vegetation there is good for spotting the typical VA ghosting (looks like brightness adjustment exactly like the video you posted in the first post of this thread, on the VA screens I personally tested it looked like this ).

    One can live with it, but it does take out of the enjoyment since you can't unsee it... The smaller control screen is a dell u2311h ips screen.
     
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  11. Opus131

    Opus131 [H]Lite

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    I don't have Skyrim. I tried Doom 2016 and i can't find a place to see it, but the game is basically all dark. Monitor is set to Freesync "ultimate" range, which turns off all response times settings. What other game can i use for this? The ufo test i don't care, i wanna see it in games.
     
  12. Opus131

    Opus131 [H]Lite

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    Damn, just saw it while playing around Doom 3. Not the inverse ghosting, but the regular trail.

    I ran this to try the black crush thingy (which isn't actually much of an issue, i have no idea what kind of dog shit setting that MSI had in that store), instead i finally managed to catch the blur. I can't see it at "standard engine" though.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2019
  13. ors

    ors Limp Gawd

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    Any other game with vegetation (I suspect Skyrim uses SpeedTree, but not 100% sure). I also saw it in Fallout 4, so if you own other Bethesda games try one of those. It also happens with day scenes, but snowy night scenes with many vegetation make it more visible the problem being light gray to dark gray/black transitions.
     
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  14. Opus131

    Opus131 [H]Lite

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    I tried loading Kingdom Come but everything is lush green damn you. Don't have any Bethesda games per-se, i do however have New Vegas, but that's not the right game probably.

    Loaded Witcher 3, still can't see anything. I just sometimes catch that silhouette trailing, but not that inverse ghosting thing. There's supposed to be a "star" test i can use to see it, how does that work?

    Man, 1440p on 27 is pretty damn small, but 125% scaling is too big. I believe there's a way to customize that? Would i get a blurred picture if i set it to 110% or something?
     
  15. Opus131

    Opus131 [H]Lite

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    Well, no banding that i can see, but i have some slight black uniformity that i can barely see but it's there. Also, there four points of strong light bleed that i can only see if i shift my viewing angle at an extreme position.

    Still can't see that inverse ghosting, just some trail around objects. Like, i caught some red trails off some floating rocks in Doom 2016. I'm not sure whether i'm really bothered by it. My eye sight is weird, i have perfect vision when it comes to static images, so much as i can still see the text perfectly well even though it's really small at 100% scale, but when it comes to things that move i just can't see anything. For that reason i'm also not as sensitive to response times. On the LG IPS screen, i couldn't tell any difference between normal, fast or faster settings, the only think i did see was the jump from 60hz to 144hz. That caught my eye instantly.

    BTW, i just tried a movie, and i can't really see "dark" blacks (or rather, they are dark, but it's not the kind of dark you'd get if the light was off altogether, same with the black bars on the top and bottom of the movie, there's light filter through), there's just as much luminescence as the IPS screen, HOWEVER, i can actually see the picture better because that damn silvery glow isn't there anymore.

    Considering the horror stories i read about the Samnsung, i think i may have gotten lucky.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2019
  16. Opus131

    Opus131 [H]Lite

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    Well, did some testing. Updated the monitor to the latest firmware, and then used cru to check out what's going on with the Freesync options. Apparently standard engine has a range of 120-144 (lmao what), but i gives no ghosting, where as ultimate engine has the usual 48-144, but there's ghosting and trailing. HOWEVER, i'm testing Doom 3 for this since it's the only game where i see ghosting really well (can't see almost nothing in Doom 2016), and that game is locked at 60 FPS. I need some days to play around with, so far i'm not really finding those drawbacks really that terrible, not considering the package i'm getting for the 329 euros i've spend on it. Imput lag i have yet to test fully, but while i do play action games, they are all single player so.

    I'm leaning strongly to keep the VA unless there's a good option for a 2k IPS screen that isn't frikking blurry.
     
  17. Murzilka

    Murzilka Gawd

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    Skyrim pines on the night sky background in motion is nightmare for VAs. If you play Skyrim - don't buy a VA monitor, my rule of thumb.
     
  18. MistaSparkul

    MistaSparkul [H]ard|Gawd

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    Well yes but that's entirely game dependant. Some games will have more obvious black smearing than others. But like I said the black smearing on the GK850G was less noticeable vs other VA panels, not entirely invisible but just less noticeable to the point where a lot of people might not consider it a problem.
     
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  19. Opus131

    Opus131 [H]Lite

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    I asked a friend to bring Skyrim to my house, haha, we'll see.

    One thing i don't understand though. In Doom 3 with ultimate engine on, i see all the ghosting and trailing, but with freesync off i see nothing. Now, if the trailing is there because of the speed of the pixels the panel is capable of, why is it that they disappear simply by turning off something like freesync? Should they be there no matter what setting?
     
  20. defaultluser

    defaultluser [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I believe certain monitors enforce a hardcoded Overdrive setting when you enable Freesync, which can cause different types of artifacts/ghosting to be displayed.

    Maybe try all the different Overdrive settings until you find the one that creates the visible trail?
     
  21. Opus131

    Opus131 [H]Lite

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    I will say, the colors still look better on the IPS.
     
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  22. Opus131

    Opus131 [H]Lite

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    Well, i've done some more testing, tried different games, including Skyrim, and so far it seems i only see ghosting when Freesync ultimate engine is on. For now i guess i can just avoid it by returning to vsync. It's kinda of an odd thing though, those VA panels are really curious.

    Only thing i'm disappointed is that there's still glow. Not as bad as any IPS monitors and it's a known fact that VA panels aren't perfectly black like OLED screens, but i was expecting it to be much darker. The contrast actually helps though, even in games. Doom 2016 actually benefits from it given how dark the game is. Other games, not so much. Movies definitely.
     
  23. MistaSparkul

    MistaSparkul [H]ard|Gawd

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    I wouldn't say it is a VA panel thing but probably a Samsung freesync implementation thing.
     
  24. Opus131

    Opus131 [H]Lite

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    Well, i guess i'll have to live with those kind of trade offs. Use Vsync in some games where the smearing is too prominent with Freesync, or pay the 200 euros extra for a 2k IPS screen, assuming i can find one with good sub-pixel layout for text. It's not a bad trade off, i just hope the smearing won't show up in some games even with Freesync off and find out there's no way to remove it there. I'll have to try everything i can before the return window expires.

    I'm amazed how this monitor has been billed as having the "strongest" colors among all the VA screens out there (quantum dot stuff?), yet it barely even gets close to an ips screen. I remember reading that the panel inside those ips units is actually physically thicker, that's why colors have such a "solid" quality to them, and also why the glow is so intense because they have to shoot a stronger light to get through the screen. It's also why viewing angles are so much better, because the screen is simply more solid. On the VA, i can almost see that it is thinner, there's a translucent quality to it i sometimes catch that reminds me of LCD screens on older electronics.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2019
  25. Comixbooks

    Comixbooks Ignore Me

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    My Samsung CRG5 has a loose power adpater it just falls out when plugged in so I used 3 pieces of Gorilla tape to make sure it stays. How long it will stays is anyone's guess it just kinda springs out if you plug it the outlet in the back of the monitor but Gorilla Tape seems to be working.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2019
  26. Opus131

    Opus131 [H]Lite

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    Damn, i just saw a movie, Alien since everything in it is dark and i wanted to try the new contrast (which is great, btw, compared to the ips) and bang, light bleed and poor black uniformity. I can't see it up close, but i could see it from my bed which is aligned in front of my pc.

    I guess it was too good to be true. It's not too strong though, i guess i'll just keep it like this. With my luck i'll probably get a worse unit if i return this one.
     
  27. ors

    ors Limp Gawd

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    Yeah, not just you, this lottery is keeping me away from buying monitors all the time :) Based on your report I'll give the new 32" 4k gaming VA screens coming out the next year another try, maybe it was just my units (although had 5 of them in total for tests at home) or they actually improved VA since...
     
  28. sethk

    sethk [H]ard|Gawd

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    If you play a game with dark backgrounds (and lets face it - that is extremely common) you can see the VA artifacts in GTG all the time. Some are better than others but even the best ones have it in spades.
     
  29. Opus131

    Opus131 [H]Lite

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    So far i only see it when Freesync is on on certain games.

    BTW, i caught that thing shown in that Skyrim video, except in New Vegas. Impossible to tolerate, but it goes away by disabling Freesync.

    Also, is there a reason why setting the response times to fast or fastest cranks the brightness up and keeps it there? I don't get the "technical" necessity of that, all the more since i can then lower the brightness in game (sometimes this yields a weird, other times it works fine, depending on the game). The flickering you get from that isn't really visible to me, but the impact on the eyes is there. Very fatiguing.

    All in all it's not a terrible package considering how much cheaper this is compared to an IPS screen, but in a sense it does feel like a got a cheaper product.
     
  30. Nenu

    Nenu [H]ardened

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    Perhaps PC monitors suck but some QLED TVs rock.
    Last years (2018) Q9FN is a gold standard in TVs for PC use, gaming and HDR imo without the risk of burn in.
    I absolutely love this display.
    It has native CR of 6,000:1, with dimming 19,000:1. Much better than this years models which they gutted to get wider viewing angles!
    1440p 120Hz is fantastic for racing games (and any game that isnt fluent enough at UHD).
    And HDR (or not) movies are stunning at nearly 2000Nits.
    The fake HDR mode (HDR+) is so good, I use it for all none HDR viewing. Whether games, TV, movies, it looks superb.
    (with backlight dialled back to the same as normal use [not maxed as is normal for true HDR], HDR+ expands the contrast ratio of SDR material to a higher level and looks natural. It is awesome)
    I cannot detect ghosting, any.

    The only downside is none existent for PC use, viewing angle.
    You can sit 3 abreast without issue, outside that there is a large colour drain.
    A single person there is zero issue.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2019
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  31. jbltecnicspro

    jbltecnicspro [H]ardness Supreme

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    A (little) off topic, but I wonder why VA monitors have half the native contrast that TV's have? You'd think that they'd be able to pull the same numbers, but the only one that I know of that can come close was the old Eizo Foris FG2421.
     
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  32. motomonkey

    motomonkey [H]ard|Gawd

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    Your ass must be worth more than mine....
     
  33. Opus131

    Opus131 [H]Lite

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    Well, another problem with the VA. I'm noticing those very thin horizontal lines on certain colors, especially darker ones. They are very subtle, which is why i didn't see them before. I googled around and somebody said it's the graininess of the anti-glare coating? Could it be? They almost look like scanlines, except very subtle as i said, barely noticeable, but there if i look for them.

    Also, turning local dimming on fixes the ghosting with ultimate engine on? Like, what? Did Samsung use chimpanzees to write the firmware i'm getting headaches trying to figure out how this is supposed to work. I had already settled to the fact i had to use Vsync for anything under 100hz but, i guess not?
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2019
  34. VIC-20

    VIC-20 Gawd

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    Considering the Sony X900 and X950 (and previously the X800 series) are VA and are the absolute best non OLED TV displays there is according to RTINGS, I think its the manufacturer. Not the technology itself.

    I have an X800 and X900 and have never noticed any ghosting at all.

    See for yourself what a good VA can do:

     
  35. Armenius

    Armenius I Drive Myself to the [H]ospital

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    Not all VA panels are made equally. The Sony looks like it uses a variation of AMVA in its televisions while Samsung uses its own SVA in their's. What both of these panel types have in common is the ability to turn portions of the subpixels off depending on color saturation and brightness in those parts of the screen which facilitates shorter rise and falloff time to reduce visible ghosting. However, there is an important consideration to remember between televisions and computer monitors. The former is made for video consumption primarily, not gaming consumption, and so fast transitions are not much of a concern and can be seen in the input lag. This is probably the primary reason for Samsung's SVA panel in reference to the OP video exhibiting this kind of ghosting for this application, as the panel was made for televisions first and applied to gaming monitors second. It's also important to note that the video shown here is demonstrating console games running at 30 FPS or worse.
     
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  36. VIC-20

    VIC-20 Gawd

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    I use my X900 at 1080p/120Hz. It is one of the few TVs that support 120Hz input. Anyway, my point was not all VAs are shit.
     
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  37. Opus131

    Opus131 [H]Lite

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    Well, this is just great:

    https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforc...-quot-interlacing-quot-lines-on-all-monitors/

    Found two different sources complaining about the Samsung specifically:


    https://www.limscave.com/samsung-chg70

    Now that i caught it it's becoming really annoying. And with the semi-glossy coating of the screen, it makes images sort of look like those plastic photos that change the picture if you tilt them, no idea what they are called, used to have a bunch as a kid.
     
  38. Murzilka

    Murzilka Gawd

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    Looks like banding. The reason why abandoned the "gaming monitors". Bad (cheap) backlight realisation.
     
  39. Opus131

    Opus131 [H]Lite

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    Well, buying 4000 dollars OLED TVs is not an option for me.