In that case, I apologize. I thought my "attack" was directed at nobody since I was sure that nobody truly believed the differences between two types of panels could be equal to the differences of night and day.
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IPS overated?
- Thread starter pedsaktix
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In that case, I apologize. I thought my "attack" was directed at nobody since I was sure that nobody truly believed the differences between two types of panels could be equal to the differences of night and day.
I'ved seen this technique before.. and I actually thought doing this to my 20" Dells. Looks simple enough that even I can do it comfortably.
I don't think the arguement is about the technology I think it's about the value between the two. Every body here seem to me that by default IPS is the way to go or get lost a snub attitude really.
monitorrat
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I will give you TN.
IPS vs. PVA is tricky though.
I do have to say that IPS do provide a better side to side view even when looking dead on. Although you often aren't directly aware of it, PVA do tend to alter the look of images as you get out near the edges, not so much that you don't generally notice it without actively looking but it is there all the same and when you look at an IPS you instantly realize what had been wrong all along with the PVA rendering of images. So that certainly is an advantage for IPS.
But a really top PVA does deliver deeper blacks and you don't get white wash on the corners of deep blacks. Plus hardly any IPS get nice glossy panels these days, it's all dull matte, which also helps to really wash out blacks and contrast (granted most PVA are matte too, but it seems like there are a few more glossy). Glossy in a good room handily beats matte IMO, although I know many disagree. I can deal with a crisp reflection in a few limited spots better than the reflection smeared over the entire surface of the screen.
On a separate note is the quality of the driving electronics, for instance the carefully thought out firmware and the fancy high-bit 3D LUT in a NEC PA241W simply destroy what is in say a Samsung 244T and are very noticeably better than even what's in say a Dell U2410.
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monitorrat
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wow, that's daring. tempting but I don't think I dare.
Well the other problem you'll get with VA is poor dark to dark transition times. A VA panel might be 8ms GTG but you'll find out that is only for the brighter transitions. The dark ones can be 100ms or even more. This leads to smearing/ghosting of dark scenes. It isn't all that horrible, but it is noticeable for sure. So while VA gets you better contrast ratio, it actually isn't so good if you make use of that ratio to look at dark scenes.
Over all, I find IPS to have the least amount of flaws, and the flaws to be the least problematic. No technology is perfect, all have things they are better at. However IPS seems to me to give the overall best image.
Agree. If you look at many categories, IPS has the least negatives.
Viewing Angle image stability:
IPS
TN and VA (these close for me, TN is clearly worse in the vertical, but VA is worse in the horizontal and horizontal can be more annoying).
Input Lag:
TN and IPS (tied for first both have zero lag panels)
VA
Screen response:
TN
IPS (But IPS is closer to TN than it is to VA).
VA
Contrast(black)
VA
TN and IPS tied.
I guess if you want prioritize contrast/blacks and don't care about image shift or response time you can go VA. If all you care about is speed you go TN. If viewing angle you go IPS.
But beyond that if you want a good all round display IPS seems to be the way to go, you get best viewing angle image stability, you get speed very near the best and only weakness is contrast compared to VA which has more defects IMO. The real place the IPS falls down IMO is not in the technology it is the manufacturer LG and its poor QA(uniformity problems and tints).
The other thing I see is no one seems to be working on monitors like they are on TVs. IPS Alpha used in Panasonic LCD TVs seems much better (I don't see white glow) than LG IPS, VAs have much higher contrast in TVs. Are there even MVA monitors anymore?
AUO has indicated they have a new AMVA5 panel for TVs coming out this year with 16000 to 1 native contrast and less viewing angle shift than previous MVA screens. It will be interesting to see the TVs based on these panels, but I think we can only dream about the equivalent ending up in a monitor. If this lives up to claims, I will gladly say AMVA5 is the best...
Guys, reading and studying comes first.
Posting and teaching others comes at the very end.
Monitorrat and especially others, please, be mercyful to this forum. Yes, everyone is entitled to stop and post any ridiculous nonsense about monitors and demonstrate his incompetence. But that's enough. Believe me, that's enough. This thread stinks.
PVA with CR 3000:1
CR averagers, badly obsessed calibrators, day_and_night victims, "top PVA" inventors, whatever you are going to stick on here - has been seen here 100 times (except for "CR averaging" - that's a unique sample)... and cleaned out 100 times.
Guys, let's finish.
Let's send this thread to a garbage bin, open windows and get some fresh air.
monitorrat
Limp Gawd
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Guys, reading and studying comes first.
Posting and teaching others comes at the very end.
Monitorrat and especially others, please, be mercyful to this forum. Yes, everyone is entitled to stop and post any ridiculous nonsense about monitors and demonstrate his incompetence. But that's enough. Believe me, that's enough. This thread stinks.
PVA with CR 3000:1
CR averagers, badly obsessed calibrators, day_and_night victims, "top PVA" inventors, whatever you are going to stick on here - has been seen here 100 times (except for "CR averaging" - that's a unique sample)... and cleaned out 100 times.
Guys, let's finish.
Let's send this thread to a garbage bin, open windows and get some fresh air.
dude, not every S-PVA has flashlighting in the corners, neither of my samsung TVs really much any to speak of (although the C650 does have some nasty cloud band irregularities going across the screen, seems to be a problem with some panels this year) and my old S-PVA samsung 55" actually had less obvious clouding/flashlighting/etc than my IPS.
Yes, you hear me, my high-end IPS has a cloud near the upper left strong the ones you show for that samsung S-PVA. On white the color tonality is a nice even white, but on very dark colors two corners tend to tint a bit browner and two a bit bluer.
And on many IPS it is impossible to center you view anywhere and totally avoid the white wash creeping in at a least a little on two of the corners.
As for your glow from an angle PVA shots, who the heck watches at that angle when they are being serious about things, haha.
That said on a brighter scene side to side across the width, viewed 100% dead on the IPS looks very even while the S-PVA does show the edges a little bit bit faded, so yeah IPS wins there, but that doesn't mean it wins everywhere.
Anyway, I own both IPS and PVA screens over 1K so I don't have to overly defend either way to feel good about anything.
Guys, reading and studying comes first.
Posting and teaching others comes at the very end.
Monitorrat and especially others, please, be mercyful to this forum. Yes, everyone is entitled to stop and post any ridiculous nonsense about monitors and demonstrate his incompetence. But that's enough. Believe me, that's enough. This thread stinks.
PVA with CR 3000:1
CR averagers, badly obsessed calibrators, day_and_night victims, "top PVA" inventors, whatever you are going to stick on here - has been seen here 100 times (except for "CR averaging" - that's a unique sample)... and cleaned out 100 times.
Guys, let's finish.
Let's send this thread to a garbage bin, open windows and get some fresh air.
My Samsung TV has NONE of what you pictured. No backlight bleeding, no glow on angles, nothing. Only contrast changes on horizontal angles, but there is no glow what so ever. Straight on, the picture is perfect.
Calibrated black depth is 0.07 with brightness of 145cdm2. (brightness default, backlight 2) Contrast ratio is unknown as Basiccolor fails to calculate it accurately for some reason, but estimates over 1400:1. Picture is perfect and deep, and blacks are almost pure pitch black, both in center and in corners and edges. Black crush is very minimal too.
Point is, not all *VA panels are the same. In case of Samsung TVs there is their infamous panel lottery going on too, Chi Mei *VA panels are known for very bad viewing angle issues. Your piece probaply has C panel. You can read all about this here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1178897
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if you're talking about TV's, I agree with you 100%. It's all a gimmick.
I'm talking about PC displays though... there is a pretty significant difference going from a 60hz display to a 120hz
Yes, but the common opinion that 120hz helps response time is dubious at best.
I have a 120hz Acer GD235HZ and while it is a bit more smooth in its display of fast motion, I can honestly say that doing motion blur tests at 120hz vs. 60hz didn't show me anything different in terms of reducing motion blur.
I usually use the PixPeran scrolling text test and the "car motion" test along with a camera and the GD235HZ vs. my Dell 3008WFP is not showing me or my camera anything impressive.
For those ultra-competitive gamers the 120hz monitors can display motion more smoothly as long as the video card(s) can spew out frames fast enough, but for the most part that is the only benefit my old eyes can see.
Regardless concerning the OP's question, my answer would be "no IPS is not at all overrated". Outside of the overly grainy anti-glare coating, and the "silvery" blacks off-angle with eIPS, IPS is still by far and away the best LCD technology out there.
Not saying it is the best display technology, but definitely the best LCD tech.
The other thing is that due to overdrive algorithms and image buffering, you get a fair bit of input lag on many PVA/S-PVA panels, which is rarely a problem with IPS tech.
I have definitely noticed dark-to-dark transition issues with *VA screens. The only monitor I've had that didn't show this was my Dell 2709W, but that also had noticeable input lag.
So Which Samsung did you get? An A, S or C? They are all VA panels and they will all suffer typical VA tone shift off angle.
Here is my ("A" version) TV, also with a calibrated contrast of ~1400, about double my calibrated IPS monitor. Now look what happens to the "superior" contrast off angle. Note that the my IPS monitor is stacked below and in front of the TV and this makes the IPS monitor at an even more extreme off angle.
What happens. (full screen browser to place images side by side)
IPS: Slight darkening at exteme angle.
VA: Complete washout of all tones, even black and less extreme angle.
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So Which Samsung did you get? An A, S or C? They are all VA panels and they will all suffer typical VA tone shift off angle.
Here is my ("A" version) TV, also with a calibrated contrast of ~1400, about double my calibrated IPS monitor. Now look what happens to the "superior" contrast off angle. Note that the my IPS monitor is stacked below and in front of the TV and this makes the IPS monitor at an even more extreme off angle.
What happens. (full screen browser to place images side by side)
IPS: Slight darkening at exteme angle.
VA: Complete washout of all tones, even black and less extreme angle.
Indeed. There is tone shift/contrast drop from horizontal angles, this is typical for all VA panels. Black depth also drops from angle. But there is no glow like in those albovins pictures. Straight on picture is great.
I presume I have S panel, Samsungs S-PVA, though I havent checked and with my broken foot I dont feel like carrying my TV around and checking it out, not atleast for few weeks. Here are images of Samsung TV with C panel. It has glow like in albovins picture. http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/9844056_k8AUN#669381822_S3qVu
Sorry to hear about the broken foot.
You are correct concerning the off-angle black glow with S-PVA. My 2709W showed none of this but it still showed the off-angle horizontal gamma shift. My first two photos show this quite apparently, that the black level of this particular 27" S-PVA panel stays quite good off-angle.
If you look at the following photos from my older post about the 2709W, you can see this in photos #3 and #4 in the lagom.nl grey scale tests. When viewed head on, the middle blocks look darker in relation to the rest, but when viewed from the difference is apparent:
http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1033153808&postcount=127
I realize you and Snowdog are discussing TVs specifically, but this still applies considering this is an S-PVA panel, and my brother-in-law's older Samsung 750 still shows this horizontal gamma shift, even with the glare-fest glossy screen.
And yes, the CMO panels are brutal in terms of horizontal gamma shift, the AUOs slightly better, and the Samsung best. Panel lotteries blow.
Whoisthisreally
[H]ard|Gawd
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On the note of PVA, I am really interested in what I can expect in terms of viewing angle when viewing a PVA monitor. I currently own a 2209WA and am considering purchasing an EV2333W in the near future, mainly for video, and I am interested in knowing the viewing distance tolerances this technology has.
Now I know that the PVA image is fairly unstable; I've seen ToastyX's striped mountain "PVA killer" image in action, and colour errors accumulate quickly, even visible at the monitor's sides when captured by a camera centred in the middle of the screen. Images from a camera taken at an unknown distance do not allow me to pass judgment in the same way taking the expensive plunge would.
Besides this, the EV2333W looks like it does meet much of the criteria for a good monitor sized film display. Particularly in terms of contrast, this monitor should perform well, whereas the 2209WA, for all its performance and employability does not satisfy in this key area.
Now I know that the PVA image is fairly unstable; I've seen ToastyX's striped mountain "PVA killer" image in action, and colour errors accumulate quickly, even visible at the monitor's sides when captured by a camera centred in the middle of the screen. Images from a camera taken at an unknown distance do not allow me to pass judgment in the same way taking the expensive plunge would.
Besides this, the EV2333W looks like it does meet much of the criteria for a good monitor sized film display. Particularly in terms of contrast, this monitor should perform well, whereas the 2209WA, for all its performance and employability does not satisfy in this key area.
Broken foot bad news. I had a grade three ankle sprain and was out of commission for weeks, took months to get back to normal.
But you don't need to carry around the TV. Check the Version on the sticker (mine is on the side opposite the connectors) C### = CMO, A### = AUO, and S### = Samsung.
Pretty much everyone agrees that CMO is the worse, but Samsung vs AUO is a wash and varies case, by case.
Especially if AOU actually delivers on claims for AMVA5 ( 16000:1 contrast and improved viewing angle).
http://hothardware.com/News/AUO-Showcases-24-AMOLED-32-MultiTouch-LCD-And-Largest-3D-HD-Panel/
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Yup. I dont recommend slipping in stairs, it hurts.
Luckily its not an ankle, but one of those long bones before the toes, and also luckily the whole bone is not snapped in to, but cracked in the tip. SHOULD go without surgery. I may check out what panel actually I have. My desk is in the corner and very cramped up so turning my TV around is not that simple.IPS would be the shit if they stop putting stupid AG coatings on them.
There's a reason why companies are using these AG coating.. These IPS panels typically use in an office environment which tend to be a well lit room. Hence Anti-Glare.
I will attempt however to surgically take these coating off on my 20" Dells.. Looks simple enough.
There have been surveys here as well. Even here on [H], despite the vocal glossy minority, the majority prefer a matte screen. Myself included. Though I don't sit ridiculously close to my screen and my AG coating is not as strong as the main one LG uses.
I found these pictures almost a year ago on a chinese website, and since the Eizo EV2333 uses the same panel as the Samsung F2380 this is probably what you will get. One can never be competely certain however, they make changes in the manufacturing process from time to time. Have had two IPS monitors manufactured this year that both exhibited a darkening haze when looking from above. =/
Not the way they're supposed to behave.
Anyway, here we go, Dell 2209WA (eIPS) versus Samsung F2380 (cPVA)
http://geting.se/viewimage.php?image=187838-090612_lcd_samsung_f2380_0077h.jpg
http://geting.se/viewimage.php?image=187839-090612_lcd_samsung_f2380_0078h.jpg
http://geting.se/viewimage.php?image=187840-090612_lcd_samsung_f2380_0079h.jpg
http://geting.se/viewimage.php?image=187841-090612_lcd_samsung_f2380_0080h.jpg
http://geting.se/viewimage.php?image=187842-090612_lcd_samsung_f2380_0081h.jpg
http://geting.se/viewimage.php?image=187843-090612_lcd_samsung_f2380_0084h.jpg
http://www.it.com.cn/diy/bigimg/2009/06/14/06/539511_73.html
Doesn't thumbnail images work on this forum?
They should make one of each and I bet the glossy IPS will sell just as well. I've alway used glossy panels (VA and TN) before getting a ZR24w and I'd much rather see the lights behind me in the screen than have an AG coating.
have you ever used a NEC 20wgx2? mm the coating makes everything look wayyy better! Shame its only 20 inch tho bit small.
I bet it won't. Your personal preferences aren't everyones. Here is a sample poll:
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1330701&highlight=matte+gloss
The AG coating on my LP3065 don't bother me at all.. But I prefer my W2408H over my 30" or maybe I like my hackintosh better than my windows machine.. since my 24" is hooked up to it... I don't know.
daveswantek
[H]ard|Gawd
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They scratch easier, or you can see scratches easier. You have to be more carful cleaing them.
I prefer matte monitors and glossy TVs, because I sit a lot further from the TV.
Dave
monitorrat
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So Which Samsung did you get? An A, S or C? They are all VA panels and they will all suffer typical VA tone shift off angle.
Here is my ("A" version) TV, also with a calibrated contrast of ~1400, about double my calibrated IPS monitor. Now look what happens to the "superior" contrast off angle. Note that the my IPS monitor is stacked below and in front of the TV and this makes the IPS monitor at an even more extreme off angle.
What happens. (full screen browser to place images side by side)
IPS: Slight darkening at exteme angle.
VA: Complete washout of all tones, even black and less extreme angle.
but who uses a monitor or tv at an extreme angle?
and the blacks go to crap on a non-AWpolarized IPS too from such a crazy angle.
but otoh, looked straight on, on brighter shades the IPS does maintain a perfect image edge to edge while PVA subtly washes out a bit. IMO, from straight on, modern IPS do better so long as the image doesn't have extensive very dark areas, otherwise PVA creates less issues, not as much glow and tinting to blacks and PVA still win for contrast (but IPS do better for subtle shading and perfect color rendition, especially at the edges)
(side note: some of the new 2010 SQ panels measure 3450:1 even after very careful calibration and can go to 4000:1 without crushing nay white shades together, although that does make the top few brightness levels not quite ride along a perfect gamma curve anymore; they do appear to be plagued by more screen uneveness this year than normal though and for some weird reason some 2010 samsung panels render every other scanline a slightly different shade, not sure if they have a panel production issue, an electronics calinbration issue; the 2009 SQ were something like, a true real, 3000-3300:1)
monitorrat
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Samsung is using over a dozen different panels this year! Panel lottery insanity. I do have to say that samsung's practices are pretty shoddy, almost certainly the least reputable of all the TV/monitor manufacturers (at least in the US, maybe overseas they do things differently), although they do make the panels with the best contrast in current consumer-level LCD existence and if you manage to get a problem free set and it never breaks, then it's not really possible to get a better LCD TV set, if something goes wrong, forget though.
monitorrat
Limp Gawd
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agreed, i don;t see the point in matte.
in fact right now i have a matte sitting in front of an ultra glossy samsung and the screen is so crazy black on the samsung and the reflections angles so sharp, i don't even see a single reflection in it from my main seating position and it's broad daylight! and the matter screen i see all the light in the room washing across it fading it out a bit. I too wish they would quite with all the AG stuff.
Uncle Humjaba
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Stuffing 15 college students in a dorm room to watch a movie will force some pretty crazy viewing angles. I got comments from completely un-technical people about how good the viewing angles on my 24" soyo topaz s (P-MVA?) were. Watching movies on their 22" TN TV was nearly impossible from the floor or sides.
Just reflections. On LCDs they add the AG film just to combat reflections.
My TV has a nice matte screen as well. No issues and it blocks reflections nicely, but the morons put a large glossy bezel that has reflections like crazy.
Glossy is just nuts IMO. LG just needs a better AG coating like on my TV or even on my IPS screen from LG (they have better coatings on the screens with the anti-glow polarizer).
Strange, I would have expected the opposite as you generally can't see AG coating at anything but a close distance, but reflections are viewable from any distance. Also I love the matte screen on my TV and despise the glossy bezel with a passion.
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I have a matte coating on both of my IPS panels and love it even if the one on my Dell is a bit aggressive. I have a glossy coating on my laptop and any benefit provided by the glossy coating is totally destroyed by the reflections. It works well in some situations but there have been times where the reflection overpowers whatever is on screen. In a darker room though I will admit the glossy screen can be very nice.
Yeah I don't know guys.. the colours seem so much more vibrant, and the blacks darker on every glossy screen I've seen. I just bought my first IPS panel (a 2209wa) and my gf's plain old glossy HP TN looks brighter and more colourful, albeit with terrible viewing angles.
Couldn't we all simply reorient our desks in our work spaces to eliminate the reflections? It seems like a small sacrifice for the noticeably nicer output.
PS. the grain is terrible on the 2209wa's AG! I'm guessing it would void my warranty to remove this film?
Couldn't we all simply reorient our desks in our work spaces to eliminate the reflections? It seems like a small sacrifice for the noticeably nicer output.
PS. the grain is terrible on the 2209wa's AG! I'm guessing it would void my warranty to remove this film?
No you simply can't reorient your desk, you get reflections unless you are in a dark cave with the lights out.
Why don't you contact Dell and ask them. Ask if you can completely disassemble the monitor and then soak the front of the panel in wet paper towels for 12 hours, then try to peel off the top layer without damaging anything.
But really you glossy lovers should just man up. There is method to get the glossy panel of your dreams. If you really want glossy so bad, you can do something about it.
Why don't you contact Dell and ask them. Ask if you can completely disassemble the monitor and then soak the front of the panel in wet paper towels for 12 hours, then try to peel off the top layer without damaging anything.
I can see how this might be terrifying for people who have never lifted a finger in their lives.
Oh I'm man enough. I hate to repeat myself here but the only issue is the warranty.
I can see how this might be terrifying for people who have never lifted a finger in their lives.
I guess I have to just spell it out. It should be dead obvious to anyone that taking apart your monitor to soak the screen for hours to peel off the top layer will clearly void the warranty. You would have to be utterly clueless to think otherwise.
Man up, stop hiding behind the warranty excuse if you want to do it. I was voiding warranties for over 20 years, taking things apart and soldering things into them, fixing some things, frying others.
monitorrat
Limp Gawd
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true in that sort of situation it matters, my samsung 55C650 would be disastrously bad in that scenario and TN can be nightmarish
monitorrat
Limp Gawd
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this afternoon in a pretty bright room my 55c650 with ultra clear panel had zero noticeable reflections and my matte monitors actually had noticeable reflections washed across their entire surface, so i wouldn't say you need a cave, just the right sort of glossy panel and some decent placement
in the wrong situation they can be worse, but i've surprisingly found that such situations are rarer than not, even during the day, but of course it will vary depending....
Why don't you contact Dell and ask them. Ask if you can completely disassemble the monitor and then soak the front of the panel in wet paper towels for 12 hours, then try to peel off the top layer without damaging anything.
heheh
Anyway I'll tell you how it goes just as soon as I finish soaking my EIZO CG245W here. I think saw a few liquid crystals spilling out, but I'm sure it'll be all good, it's not like the kitner boy spilled out all over the dock or anything.