IPS overated?

[pedsaktix]

I recently bought the HP LP3065 and combine it with 1 2007FP dell panels on each side because I got inspired after browsing in the "Show your desktop" thread. And basically just see what this S-IPS panels is all about and experience it with myself. But today though I just realized that I have been looking through an IPS panel all 6 years. (IBM ThinkVision L180P) here at work.

I also have the HP W2408H hooked up to my Hackintosh and I really think this TN panel is a lot vibrant and pleasing to the eyes than my calibrated S-IPS panels.. Or maybe my eyes is broken.

 

[Mr. B]

I upgraded from TN panels to a couple Dell 2209WA e-IPS panels this week. I couldn't be happier... well if I wasn't having trouble color calibrating both then maybe.

 

[techpriest]

i went from a nice pva/mva acer al2051w to a big asus vk246h and it felt like eye cancer. now I'm using a u2311h ips and even though it's not perfect I can't go back to a tn panel

 

[pedsaktix]

Besides the pathetic viewing angles on the TN panels. TN doesn't bother my eyes.. but then I might just need to calibrate my eyes to see the difference.

 

[canon.tk]

After having a VA, TN and now an IPS, IMO the VA is the better panel.

 

[dowant120hz]

every panel can get ruined by poor backlighting and poor electronics
i've already seen ips with better response time than most tn...
and that's without artifacts or input lag

 

[Snowdog]

Besides the pathetic viewing angles on the TN panels. TN doesn't bother my eyes..

Pathetic viewing angles are the main drawback of TN. If the pathetic viewing angles are fine with you, stick with TN. It is cheaper, faster responding as well.

IPS I have because I don't like the viewing angles of TN or even of VA.

My IPS screen is the closest I have seen to CRT viewing angles on an LCD, I can move around and the image is stable. I move a lot so a stable image is important to me.

 

[pedsaktix]

Pathetic viewing angles are the main drawback of TN. If the pathetic viewing angles are fine with you, stick with TN. It is cheaper, faster responding as well.

IPS I have because I don't like the viewing angles of TN or even of VA.

My IPS screen is the closest I have seen to CRT viewing angles on an LCD, I can move around and the image is stable. I move a lot so a stable image is important to me.

Don't get me wrong.. I love my PLP setup right now and I will probably stick with it until I get bored.. I'm just saying if you really do not have any purpose for this professional LCD's might wanna save some money and go with TN panels but if money is not an issue of'course you get what you want.

 

[saito1234]

Isn't IPS better for darker games? For example playing Ninja Gaiden 2 on my Xbox 360 looked very bad on every TN I had, it is probably because TN can't display dark shades, and colors, like they should be.

 

[Walker]

It's the viewing angles that make the biggest difference for me. I never really watch the screen from an angle but the color shift you get on a TN without even moving your head is totally unacceptable to me.

Given that 99.9% of the people are satisfied with TNs and don't want/need anything better, I'd say if anything, being the only technology to come close to a CRT, IPS is not appreciated enough. It's like you need to be a graphic professional to appreciate a better display.

 

[Ankle]

Pathetic viewing angles are the main drawback of TN. If the pathetic viewing angles are fine with you, stick with TN. It is cheaper, faster responding as well.

I consider the 6bits per channel + dithering to be equally as much of an issue as the viewing angles.

 

[pedsaktix]

It's the viewing angles that make the biggest difference for me. I never really watch the screen from an angle but the color shift you get on a TN without even moving your head is totally unacceptable to me.

Given that 99.9% of the people are satisfied with TNs and don't want/need anything better, I'd say if anything, being the only technology to come close to a CRT, IPS is not appreciated enough. It's like you need to be a graphic professional to appreciate a better display.

It's not that is not getting appreciated but over rating what the actual product is. If you can justify the cost of a little color shift when you move your head so be it. But the majority of gamers will probably not going to see or mind the difference when playing the game.

But like I said if you have money to spend why the heck not.

 

[Walker]

It's not that is not getting appreciated but over rating what the actual product is. If you can justify the cost of a little color shift when you move your head so be it. But the majority of gamers will probably not going to see or mind the difference when playing the game.

But like I said if you have money to spend why the heck not.

It's not a little color shift and you don't even need to move your head one bit though Check out the difference in gamma/contrast of an object placed at the top and then on the bottom the screen and you'll see what I mean.

Can't say I've seen many people going overboard with IPS praise here to be honest. It has it's flaws and while it's not perfect, or maybe even as good as displays that we had before (CRT), it's a far better tech and easily worth the price premium over TN in my view.

 

[Solstice]

Hmm overated, I don't really believe so; however the quality control issues of some IPS panels certainly do not do the technology's reputation any favours. A high quality H-IPS monitor is certainly something to behold though.

On a related note; I think PVA is underated and gets too harshly criticised here by some, I like them: nice AG coatings (or lack thereof), big on contrast and deep blacks, motion blur not too great a problem when overdrive is correctly implemented.

 

[kllrnohj]

Hmm overated, I don't really believe so; however the quality control issues of some IPS panels certainly do not do the technology's reputation any favours. A high quality H-IPS monitor is certainly something to behold though.

At the same time, IPS is held to a much, *MUCH* higher standard than TN. An IPS with "horrible" uniformity and tinting problems is still miles better than the best TN on a good day. There is no such thing as a uniform TN panel.

It's not that is not getting appreciated but over rating what the actual product is. If you can justify the cost of a little color shift when you move your head so be it. But the majority of gamers will probably not going to see or mind the difference when playing the game.

But like I said if you have money to spend why the heck not.

To really see the color shift problem in action on your monitor, go here: http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/viewing_angle.php

No moving of the head is required, its startling how bad a TN is at that test. I mean, jaw droppingly bad. You don't have to move your head because the slight angle from the edges of the screen to your eye is far enough off axis to be affected by TN's viewing angle problems.

 

[stevedave]

I think TN, VA, and IPS are all rated perfectly, I think people's understanding of how they are rated is the problem.

All 3 panels are great panels in the right situations.

18 year old college kid who using his PC for Word and gaming -- TN.
25 year old just out of college making some money doing some Photoshop -- VA
30 year old professional Web developer, Video editor, Photoshop master, gamer, fancy rich pants --- IPS

all panels are good its the customers that are sometimes bad.

 

[limitedaccess]

however the quality control issues of some IPS panels certainly do not do the technology's reputation any favours. A high quality H-IPS monitor is certainly something to behold though.

I think this combined with the lack of big box retail availability (for my country anyways) is the biggest issue. I mean if you got a bad panel, and could hassle free exchange locally at say the Best Buy you bought it at, it would do wonders for consumer confidence.

I mean for instance I tried a cva panel, the Samsung F2380 out, and I was able to return it hassle free because the response time wasn't good enough. But for me to say try a IPS screen (a viewsonic e-ips, thats priced similar to TNs at the moment), if I find the response isn't good enough, I'm eating a 15% restocking fee.

Then say for the Dell u2311, its also priced to compete with TNs. But again, you read the thread, and with the RMA replacements apparently running weeks behind, it really gives you pause before buying.

All 3 panels are great panels in the right situations.

I agree with this, though not necessarily with the rest of your post. I truth is IPS screen all not the end be all of current monitors technologies, which is the impression that seems to be passed around. While they have many advantages, at the same time they do have trade offs with VAs and even TNs even in terms of still image comparisons, not factoring moving images or costs or anything else. I don't believe its as simple as saying, well if you have a lot of money then buy an IPS.

 

[zod96]

The one thing I hate about IPS, well on the Dell U2410 and 2209WA anyway is the AG coating on it. Its too much and makes whites look like their dirty. My TN panel's whites are smooth pure white, where as the U2410 I have is not due to the coating. I really wish they would tone down the coating on these new H-IPS panels...

 

[pedsaktix]

Well between my 2007FP and LP3065 I think these panel has the same thickness of AG. Which I don't think is that bad.

 

[PatK]

Isn't IPS better for darker games? For example playing Ninja Gaiden 2 on my Xbox 360 looked very bad on every TN I had, it is probably because TN can't display dark shades, and colors, like they should be.

Yes. Because of the really bad colour shift on TN panels (where the top of the panel has a different gamma from the bottom because of the pathetic viewing angle!) you tend to have to choose between detail in either bright areas or dark areas with the angle of the panel, and even then the detail tends not to be as good as IPS.

Likewise colours aren't quite as good as a true 8 bit or higher native IPS panel, although they're closer in this regard than many comments (speaking in general terms, not comments on this thread ) lead people to believe, and a good TN panel will likely have better looking colours than an old IPS panel with a worn-out back light

It really comes down to how much you like retaining detail in all areas, as well as how annoyed you are by the colour shift of TN panels. Personally, the shift drives me nuts. It really amazes me that some people simply don't notice it unless you point it out to them! If you're someone who's not bothered by the colour shift, or the loss of detail in either the brightest or darkest areas due to gamma shift then I would definitely just save the money and stick with a TN panel, since that's the biggest difference with IPS.

I wish more laptops would start using IPS btw..

 

[ryken]

At the same time, IPS is held to a much, *MUCH* higher standard than TN. An IPS with "horrible" uniformity and tinting problems is still miles better than the best TN on a good day. There is no such thing as a uniform TN panel.



To really see the color shift problem in action on your monitor, go here: http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/viewing_angle.php

No moving of the head is required, its startling how bad a TN is at that test. I mean, jaw droppingly bad. You don't have to move your head because the slight angle from the edges of the screen to your eye is far enough off axis to be affected by TN's viewing angle problems.

My problem is that those specialized tests are the only time my TN panels look bad!

TN definitely has viewing angle, backlight bleeding, and color shifting problems. That being said, I still like mine just fine given the price.

 

[kllrnohj]

My problem is that those specialized tests are the only time my TN panels look bad!

TN definitely has viewing angle, backlight bleeding, and color shifting problems. That being said, I still like mine just fine given the price.

That is the absolutely critical piece right there, "given the price". For the money you can't beat a TN. But if you've got some spare change, stepping up to a higher quality panel can definitely be worth it.

 

[Crucible1001]

At the same time, IPS is held to a much, *MUCH* higher standard than TN. An IPS with "horrible" uniformity and tinting problems is still miles better than the best TN on a good day. There is no such thing as a uniform TN panel.



To really see the color shift problem in action on your monitor, go here: http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/viewing_angle.php

No moving of the head is required, its startling how bad a TN is at that test. I mean, jaw droppingly bad. You don't have to move your head because the slight angle from the edges of the screen to your eye is far enough off axis to be affected by TN's viewing angle problems.

Wow, all the same color and shade with IPS. It must suck using TN. I've never owned non IPS and probably never will.

 

[runnin17]

I own a NEC 3090 (IPS panel) and two P221w's (S-PVA panels). All three are miles and miles above any TN panel I have ever owned (and I have owned at least 5 different TN panels, all made by different companies). I will never go back to using a TN.

 

[foodle]

I own a NEC 3090 (IPS panel) and two P221w's (S-PVA panels). All three are miles and miles above any TN panel I have ever owned (and I have owned at least 5 different TN panels, all made by different companies). I will never go back to using a TN.

How's the anti-glare coating grain/sparkle on the NEC 3090? I was thinking of getting one (now that the price is coming down due to the imminent release of the PA301W), but was worried about the AG grain/sparkle.

Just FYI, my definition of "low" grain would be the NEC 2490wuxi or Apple 24" LED ACD (no AG coating, I think).

 

[ar09]

i have an "old" e-ips 2209wa panel and, i got a newer u2410 h-ips, much better than the e-ips. but i wonder if the s-ips type panel, is even better than the h-ips? i am really curious to know this?

 

[Solstice]

No, S-IPS is the weaker predecessor of H-IPS.

 

[MaZa]

IPS overrated? Yes and no. Contrast ratio is still a problem. Even though there has been models with surprisingly good contrast ratio and black depth, still too many sucky ones exist with barely below 0.20 blacks and 600:1 contrast. It still requires developement to be truly great panel for everyday user, not to mention movie watcher and gamer.


IMHO *VA panels offer best of both worlds. Great contrast, and good viewing angles. Contrast ratio does change horizontally but only if you start moving your head sideways too much (which is practically never, really). Biggest problem is smearing of moving darker colors, even with good response times. Its a *VA thing. Black crush is monitor dependant, some have a lot, some have practically none. My TV has about none, I can still (although barely) detect first two squares on Lagom test.


TN is the suckage in all honesty. Its fast, and colors can be surprisingly good thanks to well done dithering which hides 6-bit colors quite well. But vertical gamma shift drives me nuts! Vertical viewing angle is so bad that it doesnt matter where you look at it, picture is still uneven especially in darker scenes. Had two 22" TNs and never another, my eyes unconciously focused on the ceiling or stars that seemed to disappear into darkness as they move closer to the topside of monitor. Makes my brain hurt.

 

[ToastyX]

i have an "old" e-ips 2209wa panel and, i got a newer u2410 h-ips, much better than the e-ips

How is it much better when they're the same thing?

 

[MaZa]

How is it much better when they're the same thing?

Actually I remember that e-IPS does have bit worse viewing angles than S and H-IPS, tradeoff of being cheaper to make. But I have no idea how it can be worse when viewed straight on? Its quite hard to compare colors too as u2410 is widegamut monitor,

 

[gar818]

ive got a 30" ips 3007-hc and a 22" 2209wa, IPS is overated imo.

 

[mejobloggs]

I bought an IPS panel to avoid viewing angles. hp zr24w.

Unfortunately it seems to change contrast a large amount from a fairly small angle. Although the colours don't change like my TN, it's still really annoying

So from my experience IPS is overrated

 

[albovin]

still too many sucky ones exist with barely below 0.20 blacks and 600:1 contrast. It still requires developement to be truly great panel for everyday user, not to mention movie watcher and gamer.

.

Too many?
Examples please?

 

[monitorrat]

Too many?
Examples please?

I do agree that blacks and CR are sucky on IPS. The NEC PA and some new EIZO, etc. pretty amazing but they do have somewhat poor CR/blacks and white glow on black.

PVA does better in those respects and S-PVA blows them to pieces (some S-PVA now have 0.03 cd/m^2 black with 100 cd/m^2 white). In sRGB simulation many top name IPS have as much 0.2 cd/m^2 with 100 cd/m^2 white) and not that wildly better in native mode.

Even old PVA monitors from 2004 may have 20-60% better CR than big name IPS from today.

The new IPS screens also have a lot more white and tone shiftiness to solid screens near black.

Aside from that issue though the top HP,EIZO,NEC IPS monitors today are pretty nice indeed though. Just a shame about the washed out blacks.

 

[Snowdog]

I do agree that blacks and CR are sucky on IPS. The NEC PA and some new EIZO, etc. pretty amazing but they do have somewhat poor CR/blacks and white glow on black.

The new IPS screens also have a lot more white and tone shiftiness to solid screens near black.

It is kind of ridiculous to call IPS shifty, when that is the main flaw of VA screens. My first screen was VA and couldn't stand the shiftiness. Eventually I ended with IPS as it has the most stable image this side of a CRT.

Yes VA has the highest contrast ratio, but in most cases we are talking about 800-1000 for IPS vs 1200-1500 for VA. In a well lit room there is virtually no difference.

I have a IPS monitor and VA TV in my living room. My TV has double the measured (by me) contrast, yet I am much more disappointed in the blacks on my TV than on my monitor. Because it depends on usage. I use my monitor with the lights on and my blacks look black. I like to watch movies with the lights and my TVs blacks (despite be numerically better) look worse. My TV is also incredibly shifty, moving outside the sweet spot causes color washout.

IPS remains my favorite LCD technology, but that doesn't meant it is free of issues. All LCDs have issues. My number one issue with IPS is only LG seems to build IPS monitor panels and their QA seems to be very poor.

 

[albovin]

I do agree that blacks and CR are sucky on IPS. The NEC PA and some new EIZO, etc. pretty amazing but they do have somewhat poor CR/blacks and white glow on black.

PVA does better in those respects and S-PVA blows them to pieces (some S-PVA now have 0.03 cd/m^2 black with 100 cd/m^2 white). In sRGB simulation many top name IPS have as much 0.2 cd/m^2 with 100 cd/m^2 white) and not that wildly better in native mode.

Even old PVA monitors from 2004 may have 20-60% better CR than big name IPS from today.

The new IPS screens also have a lot more white and tone shiftiness to solid screens near black.

Aside from that issue though the top HP,EIZO,NEC IPS monitors today are pretty nice indeed though. Just a shame about the washed out blacks.

Out of curiosity: have you compared both side by side? Name models please?

 

[MaZa]

Yes VA has the highest contrast ratio, but in most cases we are talking about 800-1000 for IPS vs 1200-1500 for VA. In a well lit room there is virtually no difference.

800-1000? That would be awesome contrast ratio and on the limits of what human eye can pretty much detect. But if only IPS panels could go there, monitors atleast dunno about higher end TVs with IPS panels. Best IPS monitors that I am aware of max out in 700:1 with good black depth of 0.15 (NEC EA231WMi for example). Buuuut quite a lot of IPS monitors coming out lately are around 600, around 500 even when calibrated and blacks around or even above 0.20. And thats quite poor. And combine this with IPS's glowing blacks.

It is kind of ridiculous to call IPS shifty, when that is the main flaw of VA screens. My first screen was VA and couldn't stand the shiftiness.

I think this is VA panel dependant too? Some shift more than others.

 

[albovin]

Buuuut quite a lot of IPS monitors coming out lately are around 600, around 500 even when calibrated and blacks around or even above 0.20.

A lot?
What models please?

 

[NCX]

A lot?
What models please?

How about all of the IPS panels released in the last year or so except the U2311, EA2311, and Fujitus P22w5-Eco once calibrated. You make it seem like stating that most IPS panels have poor contrast is an insult to you...it is true though, just like all TN's have medicore viewing angles.



IPS is overated when it comes to gaming and movie use for the general person due to the medicore contrast ratio (600:1 average vs TN 850:1 according to DV) and extra price. This is why I hate when people recommend the Dell U2410 or Hp Zr24w for gamers. They are expensive and offer nothing but better viewing angles for gaming. I truly feel sorry for anyone who was suckered into buying the Dell U2410 for gaming/movies without owning a colorimeter as they will won't be able to take advantage of the color accuracy and have to live with washed out blacks.

Now with the Dell U2311 on the market it is the best 300$ display you can buy. Perefect for all uses and it puts us into a new era where it will be worth it for gamers to ditch TN panels and pay a little more for IPS "quality," (excpet tinting)

If you want to only spend 250$- TN is the way to go.

If you want to spend 330$+ and live in Canada or Europe you can get the Samsung F2380MX or Ezio Ev233 which blow pretty much all displays except high end TV's out of the water in terms of image quality. Only problem is the average response times, but it is worth putting up with for the sheer image quality.

If you are a super hardcore gamer and want to spend 400$+ then the Acer/Alienware 120hz panels are the way to go.

Larger yet the Dell U2711 is the best choice so far. Not enough reviews yet for the HPZr30 and 30" NEC.

 

[MaZa]

A lot?
What models please?

Dell U2410, ZR24w, NEC PA serie come to mind. Read the reviews with measurements of IPS monitor that have come after LP2475w (first good one IIRC). So far I have seen 2 IPS with good to great contrast and black depth, like LP2475w and NEC 231WMI. Dunno about Dell 2209WA, never paid attention to it as 22" is too small. But I remember hearing that its good.

Believe me, I have searched a lot as I have been desperately looking for successor to LP2475w for one year now (got fed up with widegamut issues), until then I lost hope, thought that **** it and bought a TV instead. And other than forced chroma-subsampling issue (smears red text on black backgrounds on PC signals) I couldnt be happier.


*got ninjaed by NCX.