input lag, oh input lag

troe666

n00b
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
7
Hi all,
(please read the whole thing - sorry if i waffled but important background info)

First and foremost - heres a good site to compare input lags on all major common LCDs -- http://www.lesnumeriques.com/duels.php?ty=6&ma1=88&mo1=316&p1=3023&ma2=88&mo2=178&p2=1765&ph=12

Well I admit it - I didn't do a huge amount of research prior to purchase, and despite building PCs for over a decade I dont take as much of an interest anymore, only when it comes time to buy or build a new PC do I 'catch up' on where everything's at.

So it came to be that I bought two Samsung Syncmaster 245Ts - which had terrible, terrible edge bleeding problems. So I returned these and bought two Samsung Syncmaster 275Ts. I was very impressed with the 245Ts colour reproduction, but didn't have them long. The 275Ts were noticeably less sharp and had a bit worse colour calibration out of the box, and after calibration and adjustment they werent on par with the 245Ts.

Then I noticed a horrible feeling - like my G15 and G9 input devices were suddenly wireless. Horrendous lag, just on the windows desktop. Mouse cursor playing catch up. Cranking the G9 to 3000dpi and 1000reports/sec did little to help. Not good.

Suspicious of the recent change I plugged my 19" Philips back in - and noticed input was razor sharp, fast and accurate again. It's the damned monitors.

Then I did my research and realised I'd bought S-PVA instead of S-IPS like I should have. The S-PVA panels might have various pros and cons - but the bottom line is when youre seeing 70+ms of input lag, youre disgusted, it's like using a remote PC over the network, whether youre a 3D Gamer or not.

here's a link showing a Philips 240BW getting 1.8ms input lag versus a Samsung Syncmaster 245T getting over 58.8ms input lag. There's no wonder manufacturers dont quote that number - people wouldnt buy these models if only they knew:

http://www.lesnumeriques.com/duels.php?ty=6&ma1=53&ma2=36&mo2=233&p2=2157&ph=12

Even if you arent a 3D gamer, the 70-75+ms input lag on a 275T is just totally utterly unacceptable, its nigh on impossible to even be accurate with a high res mouse. UGH. Theyre being returned tomorrow, they also have bad edge bleed.


ANYWAY --- the 275Ts will soon be gone --- but then what?

Im thinking 30" Dell but I can't get the beloved WFP3007-HC anywhere?? except some on ebay which have to come from the US to South Australia, not my preferred solution. But I'll do it because the WFP3007-HC has an awesome lack of input lag, the best of the listed 30" displays (as per below link).
My issue is that the NEW Dell 30" - the WFP3008 - has a crap input lag graph by comparison. See this link:

http://www.lesnumeriques.com/duels.php?ty=6&ma1=88&mo1=316&p1=3023&ma2=88&mo2=178&p2=1765&ph=12


So -- if the 3008WFP isnt an option, and the 3007WFP-HC is the bees knees but I cant get one easily, that leads me to my next train of thought:

The Apple 30" HD. This uses the same panel as the 3007WFP-HC by all accounts, but is readily available with local warranty.

my real question is this - can someone verify the ACTUAL panel model # and revision on the Apple 30" HD displays currently being sold?
And does anyone know if this matches the 3007WFP or the 3007WFP-HC.

Also, is the 3007WFP and 3007WFP-HC identical in terms of input lag? or was the 'HC' just so much better in that regard, given the WFP3008 has much much more input lag (well over double!!!).

Its starting to look like my best option is an Apple 30" HD.....Or a HP 3065. But I also cant find any info on the panel in the 3065. Argh!!

Given I know the Apple 30" has a 3007WFP or -HC I just need to determine if its the HC or not and if the input lag is bad or not...


Does *ANYONE* have any actual facts on the 30" LCD's input lag times??

The input lag times I know about are:

Dell 3008WFP: Min: 36ms. Max: 58ms. Average: 46.6ms

Dell 3007WFP-HC: Min: 0ms Max: 27ms. Average: 11.5ms.


Dell 3007WFP: ???
Apple 30" HD: ???
HP 3065: ???


please help I want to get this sorted once and for all and just need to determine once and for all which of the 30"s has an acceptable amount of input lag for desktop use AND high calibre 3D gaming. It looks to me like the Dell 3007WFP-HC and any monitors that share its panel are DEFINITELY the way to go. Unfortunately the 3008WFP doesnt and I cant work out if the others definitely do or not, or if the non-HC 3007WFP is also very low lag (which the apple shares, unless its the HC in the apple which would be awesome and solve all my problems because i can buy that then locally brand new.)


Anyone???

PS I figured this was the forum to come to, god it was hard working out what was going on with my input lag until I found some CRT vs LCD with chrono posts on here. Thank you all!!

please dont post back with 'i play with x monitor in crysis and its awesome', it means nothing to me :) you might have a very high tolerance for input lag - i dont - and wont tolerate it ;) CRTs arent an option (none around) and OLEDs etc are too far away. Need an S-IPS low latency low input lag panel 27 or 30" this WEEK ;)

Trav
 

TheGooch69

Gawd
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
633
I've came to the conclusion that if you are such a gamer that can notice and is greatly affected by input lag, you need to go back to CRT.

I don't mean to come off as a dick, but it really doesn't get any more simple than that sadly. You won't find a perfect LCD, at least not that I know of.
 

LittleMeEgo

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jul 6, 2007
Messages
189
TheGooch69 that blanket statement so broad and vague that its not that helpful. Even for gaming, response time isn't everything. LCD's offer many advantages over CRTs including screen size.

troe666 yes this is important information. Thank you. Why not also mention the Planar PX2611w here? It's at about 12ms in native resolution and uses a very nice H-IPS panel. You mention 27" displays above. 26" is plenty big enough for many people.

Good luck. I wholeheartedly back you in the quest of identifying low latency non-CRT displays.
 

troe666

n00b
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
7
Thanks littleMeEgo -

does anyone have input lag values on the mentioned Planar?

Also TheGooch69 - I understand where youre coming from. however the site I linked you to shows Plenty of 24" Widescreen LCDs with ultra low input lag. E.g. The Philips 240BW - this has less than 0.8ms of average input lag, with a maximum of 3ms. Compare that to the input lag of a Samsung 245T at maximum 68ms and average 55ms. It's like night and day. considering the philips is an LCD, i dont think the CRT argument holds up - the average 0.8 ms input lag it gets represents less than 1/20th of ONE frame at 60hz. Lets face it even the MOST hardcore gamer cant notice input lag of 0.8ms, its basically not even there or the same as a CRT. Im sure any issues with panel response times - with most being under 10ms anyway - arent as big anymore. i know Tn panels will be the fastest (like the philips) but ive seen S-IPS panels like the WFP3007-HC getting under 12ms average input lag on a 30" screen which is truly exceptional and desireable.

I cannot go back to CRTs - Sony do not sell their Trinitron anymore- and ultimately modern LCDs do offer a more gentle feel on the eye, consume far less desktop space, and are the more appealing option. I am still a gamer - I will run dual GPUs, quad core and I will turn vsync on and I run very very low latency peripherals

That said if you can point me in the direction of a 30" flat Widescreen CRT please go ahead?

However realistically I feel I need to determine the input lag ms value for the Apple 30", The HP 3065, and Id like to know if the panel in the Apple 30" is the one that is the same as the Dell WFP3007-HC or the WFP3007.

If anyone has input lag values for Dell WFP3007 versus CRT would be most appreciated also, then I can put the pieces together and give us all a nice list of the input lag values for the major 30"s.

Because I feel anything under about 15ms is fine for gaming, for me. I have a very high rate mouse and keyboard and a very fast connection to local gaming servers (ping 25ms, 24mbit link) and a very fast PC (no SLI but dual GPU single card), therefore all other forms of lag are minimised. To have 75ms on my new monitors was like a shotgun blast to the head, LOL

I need to find this info about the 30"s out. Anyone that can help please post back!
hope my post helped you understand my reasoning for sticking it with LCDs for now though Gooch


and yes, the lack of published input lag values for monitors is the biggest marketing cover up I've seen in a long, long time. Focus on the response time and the consumer might not notice hey.....what a joke. I see it as one of the biggest purchasing factors after experiencing it first hand. I know full well most of the major new large LCDs will have perfectly acceptable colour reproduction and quality if I'm buying in the higher end, what I therefore care about is input lag.
 

TheGooch69

Gawd
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
633
I was just stating a point. No matter how much you look, you will get input lag. It just seemed that you were avid enough to notice even the littlest bit.

Of course there are some LCDs better than others, but why even bother? Why not just get a nice CRT (if space permits) and call it a day?
 

troe666

n00b
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
7
Gooch -- 'avid enough to notice even the littlest bit?'
68ms *isnt* little, its huge
68ms is WORSE than network latency on a locally attached Monitor. You seriously must be kidding me.

A philips 240BW LCD is showing probably less input lag than a CRT. most modern LCDs are bigger, better looking, and thinner than a CRT. This thread ISNT about CRT vs LCD so I'm just going to leave that alone.
Do you actually have a link to a brand new CRT that you would care to suggest? My requirements as mentioned are 30", flatscreen.


Thread update: -- just confirmed the 30" Apple Cinema HD uses the Philips S-IPS LM300W01 (true 8-bit) with W-CCFL backlighting, the exact same combination as the Dell ('non HC') 3007WFP.
The Dell WFP3007-HC which has the wonderfully low input lag for a 30" uses the LM300WQ3 S-IPS (Super In-Plane Switching Panel - totally different to the 3007WFP, and the Apple HD. Its close to the 'Q5' series in the 3008WFP but the 3008WFP has input lag - the 3007WFP-HC has very low by comparison.


Therefore, for 30"s, the 3007WFP has at this stage unverifiable input lag vs a CRT, the 3008WFP has too high input lag, the Samsung 305T isnt worth mentioning (SVPA), the 3007WFP-HC is the only panel with verifiable input lag that is under 12ms on a 30".

It's Panel Part # is LM300WQ3 S-IPS


to sum up, I need to find an LCD that is either a Dell WFP3007WFP-HC A04 onwards brand new, or 'any' LCD that uses the LM300WQ3 S-IPS Panel internally.
At least ive narrowed down the fastest 30" input lag wise :)
Trav
 

DremoraLord

Weaksauce
Joined
Jan 25, 2008
Messages
70
I can confirm that input lag is definately not an issue on my (unfortunately faulty :mad:) HP LP3065. I believe it is probably the same as the Dell 3007WFP-HC which also felt fine to be when I used it. This is coming from a Dell 2405FPW, which had around 60 Ms Input lag and felt unresponsive to use. The annoying thing is I only noticed it when I used something better, hence the masses of 'input lag deniers' who are just plain wrong.

Since I'm returning the LP3065, I was wondering whether the Samsung 305T would be a OK option, for you and me :D. 30 ms is half that of my last screen, and probably won't be very noticeable, as there seems to be a threshold, over which it becomes intolerable. The max input lag figures are very close togther anyway for the 305T and 3007wfp-hc.

If anyone who owns a 305T can give me their opinion of the lag on the thing, I would appreciate it, as apart from that it seems like the perfect monitor for me. Personally, I think that PVA is much closer in quality to IPS than is made out on this forum.

Still, that said I don't think you could go wrong with a fully functional LP3065 (mine has a dark grey line running down the left side of the screen), and its an absolutely amazing screen, with no input lag that I can feel so go for it!
 

Snowdog

[H]F Junkie
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Apr 22, 2006
Messages
11,267
Yes, I don't play FPS games and I still notice lag. I had a Dell 2405 before I even heard of the term lag and noticed right away it felt like my mouse was dragging in the mud. Anyone who things 60ms lag is minor is generally oblivious(BTW I think the 2405 is tops in the lame monitor category- with lots of lag/ghosting/gamma shift and over bright backlight)

Any TN or IPS without framebuffers seem to be quite fast. That Planar 26 inch or the Doublesight 26" IPS both seem to be in the same category as the 30" ips before they got all the features (Any Dell 3007, Apple 30" or HP 3065 should be fine). S-PVA panels these days always seem to be the worse offenders.
 

troe666

n00b
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
7
well thats good news then about the HP 3065...anyone got any raw numbers or seen a chrono-comparison with a CRT? just want to put that nagging voice in my head to bed...lol.

The Samsung 305T, well i have trouble recommending it since the Samsung 275Ts are so truly horrendously laggy, and the 305T looks very similar spec-wise.

You never know though, but the 245T was terrible, the 275T much worse, so personally I cant put any faith in the 305T until I know for a fact its better; and I think honestly the S-PVA panel + the samsung preprocessing engine is causing the big input lag...which would tend to suggest to 305T is similar in terms of lag :(


Trav
 

j0j081

Gawd
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Aug 29, 2007
Messages
668
I was just stating a point. No matter how much you look, you will get input lag. It just seemed that you were avid enough to notice even the littlest bit.

Of course there are some LCDs better than others, but why even bother? Why not just get a nice CRT (if space permits) and call it a day?

I used to own the Samsung 206BW. A TN panel yes but virtually 0 input lag when compared with a CRT so I wouldn't say all lcds have it too bad for gaming.
 

nyt

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jan 28, 2008
Messages
471
i have the planar px2611w. It's excellent. As with other tests, it doesn't display any input lag. There is also the doublesight ds263n or whatever it is with the same panel as the planar. These are both excellent displays. After calibration the deltaE94 average on mine was 0.2 and max was 0.4.

Nicest monitor I've had and I went through a bunch including some of the NECs and Samsungs
 

devman

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Dec 3, 2005
Messages
2,400
I used to own the Samsung 206BW. A TN panel yes but virtually 0 input lag when compared with a CRT so I wouldn't say all lcds have it too bad for gaming.

Likewise, I love my Samsung 226BW, pretty close to dead on with CRTs in the chrono. Color reproduction isn't so hot (thus banding), but its a low response time TN panel so its kind of a given and those flaws are hardly noticeable when running and gunning in an FPS.
 

10e

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Jul 20, 2006
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I would recommend viewing the DS-263N (which is apparently the Planar PX2611W in disguise).

First, it is a S-IPS panel with very little input lag, excellent uniformity and fabulous viewing angles for a reasonable price.

My old Dell 2005FPW is the benchmark of input lag for me (around 16 to 25ms) and around 30+ ms I start to notice it especially when my mouse goes from slow to fast, I feel a "rubber band" effect.

The HP LP3065 is a great endeavour too with it's 3 DVI ports (HDCP) and beautiful S-IPS display, but $$$$.

I also know the feeling of 75 to 80ms of input lag from my LG tv, which is still the best looking "monitor" I've ever owned (S-IPS) but the size and lag turned it back into a family room TV. My Westinghouse L2410NM hits around 50 and that is pretty much the limit before I want to smash stuff.

For those who can't notice 70+ ms input lag, I'm sure you are happy with what you have, and in that case you are in great shape, but for others who find this problem, I know your pain.

Either one of the two options should suffice, or otherwise you will have to go TN.

10e
 

skadebo

[H]ard|Gawd
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Apple 30" Cinema Display (M9179) 16ms 30"WS LG.Philips S-IPS (LM300W01)
Apple 30" Cinema Display (M9179-Alu) 14ms 30"WS LG.Philips S-IPS (LM300W01)

Dell 3007WFP 14ms (11ms G2G) 30"WS LG.Philips S-IPS (LM300W01)
Dell 3007WFP-HC 8ms G2G 30"WS LG.Philips S-IPS (LM300WQ1)

Source: www.tftcentral.co.uk

edit: didn't read whole thread.
 

kvcrawford

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Mar 6, 2008
Messages
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I too am interested in knowing how much input lag the 3007WFP has...though I'm pretty sure I'll be picking up a Doublesight D263N. The only thing I'm not sure about is its pixel pitch, because it's a 26" at 1920x1200

Shit, you could get 2 26" doublesights for around $400 less than a 30" apple. read this thread http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1268063
 

Weenis

I said WEENIS, not...
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Apr 10, 2006
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And have more effective resolution, size, and ability to run games at reasonable frame rates, oh and scaling :). The only true advantage to the 30" is pixel pitch. I just snagged an LG245wp.. I tell you what, I wanted to jump straight to 30, but I look at it like this. If a screen can't scale perfectly without input lag, I'm not interested, hardware isn't at the point yet where we can play games etc at 2560x1600 without spending a small fortune.

I would be alright if you only had to spend a ton ONCE, but well since if you want to stay on the upper edge you have to update at least every 12 months, 18 months if you really stretch it.
 
Joined
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Apple 30" Cinema Display (M9179) 16ms 30"WS LG.Philips S-IPS (LM300W01)
Apple 30" Cinema Display (M9179-Alu) 14ms 30"WS LG.Philips S-IPS (LM300W01)

Dell 3007WFP 14ms (11ms G2G) 30"WS LG.Philips S-IPS (LM300W01)
Dell 3007WFP-HC 8ms G2G 30"WS LG.Philips S-IPS (LM300WQ1)

Source: www.tftcentral.co.uk

edit: didn't read whole thread.

I have an Apple Cinema 30" but how can I tell which one I have??? if I have the 14ms or the 16ms version?

All I know is that games are awesome and playable on this, and the colors are excellent with no input lag whatsoever.
 
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