id Software's Official DOOM3 Benchmarks

Hmmm, what I find rather "interesting" is this comment in their forums from an Administrator.

Ramzi @ Team Radeon
Site Administrator

Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 120
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 9:30 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've yet to recommend the X800 Pro for the serious gamer, nor do I plan to
Click to expand...
.

http://www.teamradeon.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=295


So team Radeon doesn't recommend the x800 Pro for the serious gamer ?
 
The x800XT PE is not available and they say don't go with the x800Pro, I guess they want you to buy nVidia, XGI or Matrox. ;)

Oh, I just saw, their site administrator called into question the FP precision of Doom3... How sad is that?
 
kcthebrewer said:
Partial precision on the same rendering path in OpenGL???

I think ATI needs to lay off the crack.
Click to expand...
LOL. They didn't say they did in Doom3. That is left up to the reader to infer.

What's this with "team radeon"? Is this speed racer or pokemon or something? :p
 
pxc said:
LOL. They didn't say they did in Doom3. That is left up to the reader to infer.

What's this with "team radeon"? Is this speed racer or pokemon or something? :p
Click to expand...


lmao
 
pxc said:
LOL. They didn't say they did in Doom3. That is left up to the reader to infer.

What's this with "team radeon"? Is this speed racer or pokemon or something? :p
Click to expand...

rofl
 
CIWS said:
Hmmm, what I find rather "interesting" is this comment in their forums from an Administrator.

.

http://www.teamradeon.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=295


So team Radeon doesn't recommend the x800 Pro for the serious gamer ?
Click to expand...

After reading that thread I am glad I don't care about "optimizations", or "iD being in bed with nvidia". I just don't care. I bought a great card, and I plan on playing a great game.

If you are a hardware nut there is no reason to have brand loyalty. What is best is best, end of story.

I am so sick of seeing people whine and moan over "Partial Precision" or "Render Paths" or anything else. Who gives a damn. When I am running down a hall blowing the brains out of zombies, I am not thinking of whether or not ATI or Nvidia made optimizations.

Geez it gets old.




On a better note, I pre-ordered Doom 3 today. After seeing the special on G4TechTV, I couldn't wait any longer. I am sooooo psyched!
 
Based out of Toronto, Ontario (with a total of 5 servers) Team Radeon launched July 1st, 2004 - in celebration of Canada Day. The number of ATI specific websites are far and between, so Team Radeon saw the opportunity to create something fresh and new. We are intent on bringing 100 percent ATI and ATI community support. Our main site has been built to deliver real-time dynamic news and information, based solely around ATI and ATI products/software. Furthermore, Team Radeon is content on bringing article based material, including: editorials, previews, reviews, and interviews.

Importantly, our staff are ATI supporters themselves, which ensures our visitors that they will receive prompt and high quality support. The people who are behind Team Radeon have centered themselves on building an overall dynamic site, which we felt was key to making a website.

The website features no pop-up windows, nor any pesky advertising. The only advertising you will ever see on Team Radeon is ATI-specific advertising. Similarly, Team Radeon does not ask its visitors or staff for donations, our thinking on running a website is, if you don't have the resources to build and keep a website up and running - don't make one.

Happy gaming and we hope everyone enjoys the site!

-Team Radeon Staff
Click to expand...

They don't seem to be affiliated with ATI if that's what anyone is thinking.
 
im switching to nvidia just cuz of what that motherfucker said about kyle on fagforums
 
Thanks a lot, Kyle. With those benchmarks you posted ATI will dig in their heels and is *never* going to let users disable the various "optimizations" now. It's all your fault.
 
CIWS said:
Hmmm, what I find rather "interesting" is this comment in their forums from an Administrator.

.

http://www.teamradeon.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=295


So team Radeon doesn't recommend the x800 Pro for the serious gamer ?
Click to expand...

Hi there,

My name is Joe and I am one of the staff at Team Radeon.

Ramzi heads up all our server and tech needs and I understand that its easy to rush to quote a website's admin, but that comment was a personal recommendation, not from the site as a whole.

There are lots of other staff members at Team Radeon with other ideals.
 
TeamRadeon said:
Hi there,

My name is Joe and I am one of the staff at Team Radeon.

Ramzi heads up all our server and tech needs and I understand that its easy to rush to quote a website's admin, but that comment was a personal recommendation, not from the site as a whole.

There are lots of other staff members at Team Radeon with other ideals.
Click to expand...

lol ATI just got its shit shoved in in d3 benchmarks...is there going to be any type of comeback or any news about possibly closing the gap??
 
TeamRadeon said:
Hi there,

My name is Joe and I am one of the staff at Team Radeon.

Ramzi heads up all our server and tech needs and I understand that its easy to rush to quote a website's admin, but that comment was a personal recommendation, not from the site as a whole.

There are lots of other staff members at Team Radeon with other ideals.
Click to expand...

hope we didnt get the guy in trouble =)
 
Lord of Shadows said:
This is probably a long shot, but can you post the default doom3 cfg so I can get my stuff ready =)

The response is by Chris Hook, a PR manager at ati. So I really dont think he even knows how the card works. =)
Click to expand...
Chris Hook is a good guy, and he knows his stuff.
 
Im just saying I wouldnt take him as an authority over what plagues the performance of the radeon. (Unless he is the kind of PR manager that visits with the dev team that is)

Im in no way attacking him as a person, although it does look obnoxious. It was a quick edit...
 
xSyzygy666x said:
lol ATI just got its shit shoved in in d3 benchmarks...is there going to be any type of comeback or any news about possibly closing the gap??
Click to expand...

Yes. Their going to swich to Bilinear filtering instead of just Trilinear mixed with Brilinear in order to close the gap lol. :p
 
How is saying "we TeamRadeon don't agree with our Admin even though he's spot on" supposed to assure me?
 
The Batman said:
How is saying "we TeamRadeon don't agree with our Admin even though he's spot on" supposed to assure me?
Click to expand...

He is saying that even though there is a few sensible people on TeamRadeon such as Ramzi, there are still plenty of ATI fanboys that prefer the X800's :).
 
The fact is, nVidia has made damn sure that Id has tweaked Doom 3 on their hardware as much as possible to get the fastest performance.

Now, I also question some of what Id/nVidia are doing. And I'm sure this will be revealed once Doom 3 has been released, and it becomes a benchmarking standard. Questions are definitely going to be asked. Firstly, I have very good reason to believe that Id is still using certain fallbacks of the now non-existant NV30 path, that Carmack has simply put into the ARB2 path that now both ATI and nVidia used for their higher end cards. So essentially, while the nVidia cards are indeed using the new ARB2 path, I still believe certain things from the NV30 path are leftover and have simply been implemented with ARB2, specfically for nVidia line cards.

We already know for a fact that the FX line and the 6800 line of cards switch from FP24 to FP16, this is part of nVidia's architecture, while ATI always remains at full FP24.

Secondly, with these optimizations, I believe one of the main one's, that has been present since the NV30 path is that, nVidia cards are still not running Doom 3 at its full precison potential - ATI I believe is, because their higher end cards are able to play the game in this mode, as one can see when AA/AF are turned on with the ATI X800, the X800 is capable of saving more frames per second with these on than nVidia is.

Lastly, as with both nVidia and ATI based cards, the drivers will improve, and for ATI specifically, the complete rewritten OpenGL driver was not being used, a beta version of 4.8 was used, but this is not the complete rewritten OpenGL driver we all are waiting for.

But, as I said, I believe this all has to do with optimization, not that ATI's architecture is inferior to nVidia's, it most certainly is not, as per the many benchmarking results presented by various websites and more importantly, the end-user themselves.
Click to expand...

This is that same Ramzi dude...he's not recommending the Pro...but at the same time he has all kinds of interesting conspiracy theories...not to mention he seems to think Nvidia is falling back to FP16 from "FP24"...when we all know it's actually FP32...

All I know is ATi didn't even have a damned BETA of thier "new supercool opengl driver" in time for Doom3...right now the whole ATi community just looks sad to me...I'd have a lot more respect for ATi if they would just admit that they took one on the chin and that they are going to rectify the situation instead of talking all this nonsense about "partial precision" which, unlike thier own af optimizations, absolutely NO ONE has seen any negative effects of...

Please excuse my frankness...but the more I read about this stuff the more ATi looks like a bunch of whining liars right now...I wish they would have a little more self respect...or atleast not have thier CEO talking non-sense about thier new opengl driver that they don't even have a beta of yet despite the fact that they have known they needed it for over two years...blah
 
If ATi looks like "whiny liars" right now, how did NV look with the 3dmark fiasco?
 
fallguy said:
If ATi looks like "whiny liars" right now, how did NV look with the 3dmark fiasco?
Click to expand...

Don't get me started on that...that was the most blatant form of cheating I have ever seen...I can't believe they thought they could get away with such a thing...seriously...clipping planes based on the camera paths??? All the pressure finally got to them and they just lost it...
 
Oy, here we go...

I joined this forum for the sole purpose of replying in this Doom III thread at the staggering page of 50 something. I've been following the discussions at hand for a few days now and it's just... really starting to irritate me.

Why is that people feel the need to align themselves to any perticular company? Why this largely nonsensical and pointless debate over why one videocard is outpacing another by a mere few frames? Can't we all agree that both companies are hell bent on delivering the MAXIMUM performance that they can?

And it is safe to say neither is cheating in this case.

True, the 6800GT is beating out the X800Pro... soooo? They're both packed with largely the same tech. The fact of the matter is, as you mix and match settings and system configurations, no single video card will remain at the top, unless it's at some sort of distinct technological advantage, in which this is most certainly not the case. And yes, I realize the GT is about $100 dollars cheaper, so perhaps that'll only deepen ATi's resolve to hoist itself from the pesudo hole it's dug itself into and absolutely reap the competiton come August... when the new drivers arrive. When Doom III arrives.

I think people should be more in tune with just how amazing this game is going to be, on any modern system :)
 
Wow after reading over at team radeon about the doom3 benchmarks I would have to say the excuses are starting to pile up.

Funny how the same people who will defend tri-opts because you can't notice the difference would push so hard about FP 16 / 24 difference even at the times where you wouldn't see any.

If everyone knew Doom3 was coming why sit on making your super duper opengl drivers?
Why not have them ready to go with your already low impact AF and just slap nvidia?
Could there be more than just driver reasons for the performance?(Honest question I really don't know the hardware )

The idea that the geforce 6800's are built strictly for this game also seems a little silly.Why because it has a lot of shadows? Many game engines are heading in that direction. Wouldn't you start to make rendering shadows easier on your hardware for them then?

Of course im sure it didnt hurt to have a card designed like that.
 
enyx said:
Oy, here we go...

I joined this forum for the sole purpose of replying in this Doom III thread at the staggering page of 50 something. I've been following the discussions at hand for a few days now and it's just... really starting to irritate me.

Why is that people feel the need to align themselves to any perticular company? Why this largely nonsensical and pointless debate over why one videocard is outpacing another by a mere few frames? Can't we all agree that both companies are hell bent on delivering the MAXIMUM performance that they can?

And it is safe to say neither is cheating in this case.

True, the 6800GT is beating out the X800Pro... soooo? They're both packed with largely the same tech. The fact of the matter is, as you mix and match settings and system configurations, no single video card will remain at the top, unless it's at some sort of distinct technological advantage, in which this is most certainly not the case. And yes, I realize the GT is about $100 dollars cheaper, so perhaps that'll only deepen ATi's resolve to hoist itself from the pesudo hole it's dug itself into and absolutely reap the competiton come August... when the new drivers arrive. When Doom III arrives.

I think people should be more in tune with just how amazing this game is going to be, on any modern system :)
Click to expand...

Mostly I'm just happy to be getting such a badass vid card and having such a badass game to play on it...but after seeing the benchmarks and then reading ATi's official response I'm just kinda annoyed with thier behavior...

It's not just a few fps that I'm upset about...the $400 350Mhz GT BEAT the $500 impossible to find 525Mhz X800 XT PE in Doom3...that's just piss poor performance/foresight/customer service on the part of ATi...but whatever no big deal...but what is the general response on thier website from ATi's CEO and members of the ATi community? They point fingers saying Nvidia is running partial precision and that the benchmarks weren't fair when they KNOW for a fact that they simply have garbage OpenGL drivers as evidenced in every other OpenGL game out there...

I seriously find this personally offensive because: A. I'm a huge computer geek. B. ATi's customers deserve better. C. ATi has built a very good reputation for themselves which they are now ruining by being sore losers.

I just think the whole situation is disgusting and I really want ATi to get off thier collective asses and get a decent OpenGL driver out the door because that is what thier users deserve.

</bitching>
 
fallguy said:
If ATi looks like "whiny liars" right now, how did NV look with the 3dmark fiasco?
Click to expand...

The 3DMark fiasco was nowhere near what ATI is doing right now. ATI has lied about having Full Trilinear filtering and has gone to GREAT lengths to push their product on that fact. They refuse to admit their cards wont run full Trilinear filtering like the 6800's will.

They keep going on and on about the FP16 and FP24 bit. If floating point analysis is done to ensure maximum precision is retained then there is nothing wrong with using FP16 and FP32 both. FP32 has higher precision than FP24 and FP16 is somewhat faster then ATI's FP24. The 6800's are the most efficient while using FP32 so they are going to use it most of the time.

While NVIDIA is loudly and proudly advertising the new shader model, ATi is attempting to downplay it. A wonderful and quite humorous example of this tactic is a developer presentation titled "Save the Nanosecond" by ATIs Richard Huddy which was accidentally leaked on the internet. The trouble was, the presentation still sported some personal notes which made it clear that the presenter was trying to convince developers to stay away from Flow Control in PS3.0, as it incurs a very tangible performance hit. Quote:

"Steer people away from flow control in ps3.0 because we expect it to hurt badly. [Also it's the main extra feature on NV40 vs R420 so let's discourage people from using it until R5xx shows up with decent performance...]"

Internet forums everywhere are still tied up in all sorts of debates about how this statement should best be interpreted. One way of reading this quote would be that ATi's upcoming chips are either still too slow for this feature or simply aren't designed for it. Another would be that it won't be until the generation of cards following the one being launched now, that graphics accelerators will be able to cope with the complexity caused by this feature...
Click to expand...

http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20040723/his-08.html
 
Well, I'm sure they're working at those OGL drivers... that much is undoubtable.

But I do see your point. I am also sure that while they may be nitpicking at nVidia's faults, they are speaking the truth. I'm going to have to run this game with an ATi Radeon 9800Pro 256MB with a 3.0c processor (with a weak overclock to 3.4), but I bought that card three weeks ago... and now I'm thinking that perhaps I should have waited. At least then I would have seen these benchmarking results and quite possibly went with a nVidia card.

But in the end, these are just one set of benchmarks... and in the past I've always found disparity between websites and their numbers. I'm hoping the lack of frame speed on ATi's part won't end up as marginal as it is, or that those drivers will QUICKLY show up and turn things around, if not atleast attempt to level the playing field.

Either way, I anticipate August 3rd to the point of loading up ua-corp.com twice a day just to see those numbers ever so slowly tick down. It's friggin' killing me!
 
d34dly said:
On a better note, I pre-ordered Doom 3 today. After seeing the special on G4TechTV, I couldn't wait any longer. I am sooooo psyched!
Click to expand...
Anyone who hasn't seen the Doom History by G4 has to download and see it right now. It looks awesome and....CREEPY!
 
i just watched the history? and now im like.. i no longer want to goto bed, the demons will get me
 
This is pathetic. You know what, if we are all such hardcore gamers, we should just shut our mouths and adhere to this motto:

Be [H]ardcore. Be mercenary.

Who gives a crap who lied and who was dishonest? These are huge corporations who don't give a rats ass about how they look to a handful of harcore geeks (that would be us). What's important is to buy what's best at the time you're going to buy it. Don't take sides. Don't whine and bitch. Go out there and buy what you judge is best. If your criteria is max fps so be it. If your criteria is OpenGL or DX performance, so be it. If you want to buy for Doom3 or FarCry or whatnot, then go ahead. Just don't come on here and waste HardOCP's bandwidth writing thirty posts about how much the other company sucks.

And have some sympathy for people who are trying to justify buying something with their hard earned dollars. I felt like crap when the 9800 took over and I owned all nVidia. I felt like crap when my 3dfx cards had their socks rocked. THe point is, if you've been in this game for awhile sometimes you're going to be stuck with a video card that gets booted in the anus by the one you didn't buy. It sucks to pay good money for something and find out it doesn't work as well you thought. It happens with video cards. It happens with CPUs. It happens with cars. Show a little love.

The worst thing is that the REAL questions are being ignored amongst the fanboy wars, like:

-what if I dont have like 4gb in my box?
-what if I dont have like 3ghz in my box?

Luckily, the [H] boys aren't wasting their time on this forum. They're working on getting this kind of info to us as we speak. They are releasing a guide. I for one am going to wait for that guide before I make any rash decisions.
 
hahaha, kyle pwns you all. :p. Hey fellas, my 5200 pwns the x800. :D. lol.


note: sry bout the retardness, everyone is getting antsy about this. If you have 525$ and like ATI, then ur set. If you like the 6800 and like Geforce and happen to have 300-400$. Then your set also. Just everyone get along and have fun.

Take care of yourself and each other
-jerry springer-

:D
 
note: sry bout the retardness, everyone is getting antsy about this. If you have 525$ and like ATI, then ur set. If you like the 6800 and like Geforce and happen to have 300-400$. Then your set also. Just everyone get along and have fun.

Take care of yourself and each other
-jerry springer-

:D[/QUOTE]

Or you could wait until next year when both companies will produce cards that will blow away the current ones now :D
 
kick@ss said:
They don't seem to be affiliated with ATI if that's what anyone is thinking.
Click to expand...

TeamRadeon said:
Hi there,

My name is Joe and I am one of the staff at Team Radeon.

Ramzi heads up all our server and tech needs and I understand that its easy to rush to quote a website's admin, but that comment was a personal recommendation, not from the site as a whole.

There are lots of other staff members at Team Radeon with other ideals.
Click to expand...

Thanks for passing on additional info to assist with a clearer picture. By using the term "Team Radeon' it makes it sound more like an official ATI afffiliation. I did in fact go and look over ATI's site and product pages after reading that to see if the x800Pro was specifically referenced as a gaming card and I must say, to a little bit of my suprise, I could not find such a reference anywhere. It's simply called best in it's price category without any specific reference to gaming, 3D modeling, etc. The XT-PE is specifically addressed as a high-end gaming card on the site though. So one could claim the x800Pro is not sold specifically "for high-end gamers"

Also even though I know some here already understand I hold no particular affiliation to one brand or the other be it ATI,Nvidia,Intel, or AMD (I own all), there will be some who think I mentioned this as some kind of hit against ATI and that's just not the case. Just wanted to make sure what the picture is and someone from there (and kick@ss) helped clear that up. Thanks. Need a little more proof ? ;) These are in my Apt.

http://www.ciws.info/aticards.jpg

http://www.ciws.info/pi_card.jpg



d34dly said:
Geez it gets old
Click to expand...

Agreed. Yeah never much for all the conspiracy stuff in this case myself. Plus add on top of that the fact Doom 3 didn't just pop-up overnight. It's been in development for years. So any company has had time to work with and develop for it.
 
And on the note of next-gen's cards coming (*edit* err this gen "value segment" i meant haha)...that 6800LE @ t-break is looking like quite a delicious option in the $200 range (effectively changing my mind of simply picking up a MSI 9800 >> XT).
 
A warning, do not quite ditch yor X800s yet, Doom 3 is one of a few Open GL games around lately and as it stands, nVidia beats ATi in Open GL, when you put to test the same cards on a DX9 game such as Far Cry have a look at the results then, I am thinking that everyone who is selling their X800s is making a big mistake and in some cases that could cost you instead of 500 dollars for just the X800 you will end up paying 900 dollars just for one game that is a major Open GL game so think about it, is one game really worth 900 bucks?
 
Mr.T said:
A warning, do not quite ditch yor X800s yet, Doom 3 is one of a few Open GL games around lately and as it stands, nVidia beats ATi in Open GL, when you put to test the same cards on a DX9 game such as Far Cry have a look at the results then, I am thinking that everyone who is selling their X800s is making a big mistake and in some cases that could cost you instead of 500 dollars for just the X800 you will end up paying 900 dollars just for one game that is a major Open GL game so think about it, is one game really worth 900 bucks?
Click to expand...

Yeh when you test the same cards in a DX9 game they perform similarly. Best price/performance/features is the $399 6800GT.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top