HTC Vive Outselling Oculus Rift 2:1, Claims Tim Sweeney

Discussion in '[H]ard|OCP Front Page News' started by Megalith, Jan 10, 2017.

  1. Megalith

    Megalith 24-bit/48kHz Staff Member

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    Let this be a lesson to those who enter the headset game in the future (assuming Mr. Sweeney is on point): make sure it’s open source. That’s easy enough to believe, since nobody wants to be locked to any one ecosystem—but I would also think that HTC having an arguably more advanced and complete product played some part.

    According to the founder of Epic Games, Tim Sweeney, the HTC Vive is outselling the Oculus Rift by a ratio of 2:1. Claiming that the reason for the greater success rate of the Vive is its open-platform design, Sweeney said he expects this trend to continue and that ultimately open platforms will dominate in the VR space. Oculus was once the darling of the virtual reality world. The developer of early VR kits like the DK1 and DK2 and headed by then well-loved, VR evangelist, Palmer Luckey, Oculus rode a wave of popularity to its consumer release. However after backtracking, a higher than expected price and a very Apple-like stance on software stores, much of the Oculus good will evaporated throughout 2016.
     
  2. jfreund

    jfreund Gawd

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    Vive - Steam

    Oculus - Facebook
     
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  3. MavericK

    MavericK Zero Cool

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    Even after the release of Touch? Hmm.
     
  4. Rvenger

    Rvenger [H]ard|Gawd

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    I'd give it some time since Oculus touch has been out barely a month.
     
  5. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Pick your own.....you deserve it.

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    I wish the same applied to adaptive refresh rate monitors.

    Right now you have to choose between gsync and be intentionally locked in to Nvidia GPU's for the life of the monitor, or FreeSync and be unintentionally locked in to AMD GPU's for the life of the monitor, because FreeSync - while an open standard - is not used by anyone else.

    This is the main reason I haven't invested in the technology yet. (Well, that and neither comes in the size and resolution I want yet)

    Closed standards hurt the market and need to go away. I'm looking at you Nvidia.

    It would be dead simple for Nvidia to include FreeSunc support in their drivers, but they won't because they are happily forcing their customers to buy their special monitors...
     
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  6. grtitan

    grtitan [H]ard|Gawd

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    Awesome news.

    Fuck oculus!
     
  7. Gigus Fire

    Gigus Fire [H]ard|Gawd

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    dk1 and dk2 were around 300-400$. I didn't want to pay almost double for the release version that was slightly different than dk2

    I'm fairly interested in that lenovo one that was showcased at ces. Less than 400$ for 1440 res screens with roomscale.
     
  8. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun Pick your own.....you deserve it.

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    I just took the plunge into a Vive for Christmas. By decision was based on three things:

    1) Better Steam support
    2) Controllers and easier setup of room scale
    3) Has a bigger base and in a niche market that probably means better support
    4) Well received by sites like [H]

    Not in any particular order but my thoughts on the subject. There are those that swear by the Rift, it does get much better reviews on comfort and ease of wearing with the lighter weight and integrated headphones. HTC had the Deluxe Headstrap on the way, looking forward to that. As for Sweeny's point about openness, I don't think it's as big on an issue for sales for this kind of thing as the things I've mentioned but I do agree with the sentiment. And Vive owners are certainly not supportive of Rift exclusives.
     
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  9. Armenius

    Armenius [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Freesync is AMD's implementation of Adaptive-sync in their drivers; there is nothing open about it. Adaptive-sync is an optional feature in the DisplayPort specification that NVIDIA already uses in their laptop hardware.

    "Open standard" in AMD terms means "open, so long as you make hardware like us."
     
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  10. Domingo

    Domingo [H]ardForum Junkie

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    IMO it comes down to the Vive being pushed as THE gaming VR solution for the PC. Anyone that uses Steam regularly knows about it and at least some minor details about it.
    I think a lot of people know of Oculus, but probably don't know what exactly it's all about. If anything, people probably know it's that "Facebook VR thing."

    Also related, there's also the PS4's VR platform which isn't even mentioned. As someone who was hunting for one recently, they were sold out everywhere during Christmas. Resellers were moving them at 2x retail. Clearly that's making some impact, too. At the very least it's a great exposure of what VR can be to a casual audience. It's night/day ahead of the mobile phone ones that Samsung has been pushing.
     
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  11. Armenius

    Armenius [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Strange. Everywhere I've been in my neck of the woods has had plenty of PSVR in stock.
     
  12. buttons

    buttons [H]ard|Gawd

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    It is more open then Nvidia.

    Quote: "G-Sync accomplishes these variable refresh rates with a proprietary hardware module, which is built into every supported monitor. With FreeSync, no such module is required, because it uses the variable refresh rate tech that’s part of the DisplayPort standard"
     
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  13. sboucher

    sboucher Limp Gawd

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    Gratz on the purchase, and welcome to the VR side!

    I'm a Rift owner myself.

    The Vive was received well because they had motion controllers and Room scale before Oculus. Now that Rift has touch (fantastic controllers!), and room scale with the extra sensor - there is some parity between the two headsets. That is a great thing for developers. Take for example Onward. Since the release of Touch, there has been a flood of Rift users joining the game on Steam. That is great for Dante! In fact I think it's great for the industry as a whole.

    I don't really share Sweeny's point of view. I don't have issue with Oculus exclusives on the store, at all. Other stores have their exclusives as well, such as Half Life on Steam, Battlefield on Origin, etc. What I do take issue with is exclusivity to Oculus' hardware. Oculus needs to get smart and officially support the Vive on their store, same way Steam supports the Rift. ReVive is a solution yes, but I think they need to make it official. Oculus investing money into software for their platform is just basic business, you can't expect them to put their money into it just to have people buy it on a different store. Wouldn't allowing Vive users to officially access their store to purchase software be good for their business?

    As for comparing Oculus to Apple, not a fair comparison. You can't take an Apple phone and start installing stuff from the Google Play store just by flipping a switch in the settings somewhere.. In fact Android has the setting as well, whether or not to allow apps to be sideloaded. Sure, they could do away with the option and leave it open - but I honestly feel the issue is blown way out of proportion.

    Oculus also doesn't get nearly enough credit for the work they are doing reducing minimum specifications and improving the performance of their runtime. ATW and ASW is some sort of fucking magic sauce, it works very well. Anything I pick up on Oculus, is going to run great. I cannot say the same for Steam. Sure they have Re-projection, but that doesn't even come close. I love Onward, but man do I hope they improve the performance and netcode.

    At any rate, there are some things about Oculus that are better and there are some things about Vive that are better. In the end, either is a very good choice. I'm not some Oculus loyalist, that is for sure. When gen 2 comes along, I'll once again weigh the pros and cons of each and base my decision on them at that time. Same way I do video cards between team green and team red. Competition is good for the consumer. I also think that competition will drive innovation in the industry forward. I honestly believe if it were not for Vive, Oculus wouldn't have released Touch as soon as they did and we probably wouldn't have room scale.. If it were not for Oculus, we possibly would not have seen the HTC Vive released when it did.

    2017 is going to be a great year for VR though. I expect content will be king this year, rather than the focus on hardware in 2016.

    For your new purchase, I recommend Onward (obviously) and Doom 3 BFG with VR Mod. You'll love it!
     
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  14. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Pick your own.....you deserve it.

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    As far as I am aware, any GPU manufacturer who so chooses can take advantage of FreeSync monitors by implementing the tech in their drivers. In that sense it is open.
     
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  15. Taco

    Taco [H]ard|Gawd

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    I think being "Open" is minor. Vive is plastered all over an established store front like Steam coupled with the fact that until this last month Oculus couldn't compete on functionality. I think those factors applied to it more than anything.

    My wife bought me a Rift for Christmas, added the touch controllers and a 3rd sensor and I'm very happy with it. Would have been happy with the Vive as well.
     
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  16. Axiomatic

    Axiomatic Limp Gawd

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    This may be petty of me but Oculus having Palmer Luckey is why I bought a Vive this xmas. Cheeto Mussolini does not impress me. Anyone who thinks he hung the moon, even less so.
     
  17. DPI

    DPI [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Inertia.

    - Vive had touch from day one, standard, so no fragmentation. Rift didn't; and because Oculus Touch is optional, it's fragmented. Lightroom remains the superior input solution despite coming to market 8 months earlier.

    - Steam digital store supports Oculus Rift. Oculus digital store doesn't support Vive.

    - Palmer Lucky is kind of an arrogant prick, reneged on many of his original promises to KS backers, sold out to Facebook, and one of the main Oculus executives wanted to have sex with a kid.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2017
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  18. M76

    M76 [H]ardness Supreme

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    Yes that's what I thought as well. Associating yourself with facebook is like saying "we love cancer".
     
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  19. Litfod

    Litfod [H]ard|Gawd

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    It was also an absolute mess of a launch, with no motion controllers and massive shortages and delays. My Vive arrived about 3 weeks before I expected, meanwhile my Rift order was delayed by about 3 months, before I cancelled it (because of both the delays, and their increasingly walled-garden attitude to exclusivity).
     
  20. HeadRusch

    HeadRusch Gawd

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    So Vive outsold Oculus because it shipped with hands...................the end. This isn't revolutionary or surprising.

    Funny, I saw the Oculus Rift as exactly the opposite. I saw the Rift as having a development history with a guy I respect in gaming, Carmack. The other felt like a quick-and-dirty "we gotta get this out to market or Oculus will own the world!" release....that cluster of cables, the way the headset was designed and strapped to your face, lack of integrated sound...and those questionable controllers...all of it felt like they green-lighted the 3rd prototype or something....get it OUT there, and those rarely work in the real-world. No disrespect to the developers here, its solid hardware that works, and it satisfies all the VR requirements right out of the box....no add-ons, its a turn-key solution. That is advantageous, but I personally am not upset I didn't go VIVE, I'm good with my decision.
     
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  21. Taco

    Taco [H]ard|Gawd

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    Vive roomscale solution is better in that it requires only 2 sensors and very little setup, I don't believe they need to be physically wired to PC, but someone please correct me if I'm wrong. For similar performance Oculus requires 3 sensors,(1 bundled with headset, 1 with controllers, 1 needs to be purchased standalone) all wired to the PC via USB and significantly more tweaking and aggravation to get them positioned properly. Once Oculus is setup properly my understanding is tracking is equal too Vive(some say better some say worse), however Vive supports a larger play space, I don't think most people need or can even support the larger space. I'm sure someone is rushing to jump on me for the last point, but I think the Oculus space is plenty large enough for almost everyone. I believe once you factor in all the necessary addons you need for the Oculus to get equal functionality, the Vive is less expensive.

    For the Oculus it's more comfortable, has a better builtin headphones with better 3d positioning audio and the design causes less lens fog(hugely important for me, probably matters less for most).

    As for Steam compatibility, I only ran into issues until I got the Touch controllers. No issues since and Steam recognizes I have a Rift Headset with Rift controllers. Does not assume I have a Vive. I think this was a relatively recent Steam patch. Going back to the point of the Rift being fragmented, I've standardized my gaming platform on Steam and have had 0 issues playing any Vive games with a Oculus headset. Only planning to buy exclusives from Oculus store. In short, I don't feel like fragmentation impacts me any more than it impacts Vive owners who want to to play old games developed with the Rift in mind.

    So again, both good solutions. If you want to get into this, do your research, buy what you want based on what's important to you, either way you won't be disappointed. Not a religious argument. If my wife had bought me a Vive instead of a Rift, I'd probably have that and be just as happy.
     
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  22. sboucher

    sboucher Limp Gawd

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    Oh comon, Palmer played a pretty huge role getting these things to market. I'm no fan of Trump either, but peoples political and religious beliefs are their own - I don't judge and I certainly don't discriminate against a company for their employees personal views.

    True, Vive had their wand controllers - but they are inferior to touch. I do think the prototype Vive controllers look good though. But let's be honest here, Vive was a development kit rushed to market as stated by Taco above.

    Yes, Oculus needs to support Vive on their store. You'll get no argument here on this.

    Palmer and friends did backtrack on a few things, but don't forget KS backers got what they paid for (development kits) and Oculus threw in free CV1's for them when they launch. Pretty f'in cool in my books.

    Facebook gave Palmer a lot of money, I would have taken it too! Also all that cash Facebook has been pouring into the industry is helping advancement, a lot.

    That whole Oculus exec / kid thing is indeed pretty creepy though, but what the hell does that have to do with Oculus / Facebook?

    You are spot on, all accounts. Running 3 sensor setup, and yes it adds up to more money than Vive. I've got more than enough space for a good room scale experience and don't feel it is any inferior to Vive's. I will say though, that light house tracking is awesome and that is one area I will concede Vive better than Rift, but not as much as some would make it out to be.
     
  23. Krab

    Krab Limp Gawd

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    I won't touch the oculus rift or any future iteration of said product for three reasons.

    1. It has been annoyingly overhyped for years. Think Star citizen.

    2. Palmer Lucky and Facebook.

    3. Vive is a better product.
     
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  24. grtitan

    grtitan [H]ard|Gawd

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    Meeho likes this.
  25. quiktake2009

    quiktake2009 n00bie

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    Bought a Playstation VR. Best games at the moment, fits my glasses, and has a very portable setup compared to other VR setups. Works well for 2D comsumption as well.
     
  26. sboucher

    sboucher Limp Gawd

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    Nice! I'm very happy Sony entered the VR market. I'm hoping some of those games make there way over!

    My bro tried out my Rift setup, and really wanted to buy one. But since he doesn't already have the PC I recommended he just get the Sony.
     
  27. EvilWays

    EvilWays [H]ard|Gawd

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    Except for where the cord enters the headset (behind the left ear). I end up having to let it drape over the right shoulder and down the right arm. This is particularly annoying when I am using the PSVR while sitting down as the cord tends to slacken up when moving my head and I end up "pinching" the cord between my back and the chair.

    That's been my only complaint with the PSVR at this point.
     
  28. RogueTadhg

    RogueTadhg Gawd

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    I'm on the fence. But I'm watching how the VR plays out. I've tested Rift + Touch at Bestbuy and I gotta say. It's super sweet and took a few seconds to get into it. Testing it is one thing, purchasing it is another. It'll probably be a few years before the headset hopefully fade away into some type of standard.

    Vive seems to be getting all the new toys and I haven't even heard of a Rift2 yet to compete with Vive 2.
     
  29. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun Pick your own.....you deserve it.

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    There is no Vive 2 coming anytime soon. I think there won't be much going on the hardware side for this two this year as far as new headsets.
     
  30. sboucher

    sboucher Limp Gawd

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    The Vive toys you are hearing about have nothing to do with Gen 2 headsets, which are likely far off for both Rift and Vive. These toys are for the most part are to catch up with the Rift. The new head strap with audio and single cable, Rift already has that. Prototype controller with finger location sensor, Rift already has that (although I do like the new prototype). Positional tracker puck, unnecessary - Rift touch controllers are small enough to be used with other peripherals (case in point - Rock Band VR coming soon).

    As stated, I've got the Rift. If I was buying now, I would have a hard time choosing to be honest. There would be a pretty good chance I would buy the Vive over the Rift because it's now cheaper, and I do like that they opened up the lighthouse tracking for 3rd parties. I do really like the Rift headset and Touch controllers though over the Vive. I wouldn't be so concerned over Oculus exclusives. I'm finding I'm gravitating more towards Steam for software purchases anyways. Oculus is so fucking paranoid about sim sickness I don't think they have a single full locomotion title on their store, which pisses me off. I think the best stuff will be available on both stores.

    If you are going to wait a few years, I'd hazard a guess that is about the timeline before we see Gen 2 stuff. I can totally understand why people would want to wait due to cost, and we'll probably look back at gen 1 as being pretty shitty. For me personally though, I'm getting older - so I'm in the boat of I've waiting long enough for this kind of tech to come along, so I'm all in NOW! haha.
     
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  31. N4CR

    N4CR [H]ard|Gawd

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    I said from day one that ps4 vr will sink or swim vr for the masses. If it works we are in luck..
     
  32. Cataulin

    Cataulin [H]ard|Gawd

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    With RE 7 coming up right behind it I'm hoping VR gets to stay. I got a Gear VR and man does it blow me away. I just need those motion controllers to come out.
     
  33. lenne0815

    lenne0815 n00bie

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    please elaborate in what possible way the vive devkit is more "advanced" than the oculus ?

    is it because they almost waste 25% of the screens real estate because the lens system / post rendering warp used is nowhere as sophisticated as the rifts ?

    is it because weight wasnt considered at all when designing the headset, and its just a big chunk of injection moulded plastic ?

    is it because the first headstrap for the vive was designed with the only question the designers asked themselves is "how the eff are we going to strap that to a face" ?

    is it because the controllers are designed as a carrier for an optimal sensor layout and actual hands grabbing them just an afterthought ?

    Or is it because of the the tracking system which in smaller rooms performs worse than constellation; keyword "jitter" and can only play out its strengths in spaces so large most people cant devote solely to vr anyway ?
     
  34. quiktake2009

    quiktake2009 n00bie

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    I figure I'll buy the next generation of PC VR. If I had to buy now, I would probably get the Oculus in order to have access to all the stores. However, the lack of content and sales on the games concerns me. I guess I'm too price sensitive.
     
  35. sboucher

    sboucher Limp Gawd

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    There is some very good content available now. In 2016 that was an issue yes, but now that Touch has released and there is some parity between Rift and Vive, development is accelerating. 2017 is going to be a great year for content. Also developers have figured out what works for locomotion imo, so they are spending less time experimenting.
     
  36. N4CR

    N4CR [H]ard|Gawd

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    You just gave me a very good reason to get into VR. I've wanted to 'give it a good shot' when I build a new rig, but as someone who hasn't played RE since PSX (and loved it), RE in VR..... oh hell yes.
     
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  37. deaedius

    deaedius Gawd

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    Honestly I have never tried the rift or psvr, what I do know is that VR is just badass in general. Ever since reading the Sega VR prototype in EGM mags I have wanted VR (http://www.pcauthority.com.au/Gallery/307763,the-evolution-of-motion-control.aspx I know the link is not an EGM article, I'm too lazy to dig it up). After finding myself all over the living room playing certain games, I am so glad that VR became a reality! While there is a bit of work to do in terms of motion sickness and fps games, I am certainly a proud owner of a Vive and to be part of the VR community!
     
  38. Cataulin

    Cataulin [H]ard|Gawd

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    yeah. everyone at e3 got to demo it via PSVR. Im sure vive can use it to. Im trying to get riftcat before it comes out so I can go extra spooky instead of playing it on my tv. those new monsters are scary as balls.
     
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