How will the PS3 fare against the Xbox 360's Halo 3 release?

[aramis]

But what exactly did Microsoft due to de-throne Sony from the preferred game console? I believe it was the timing of the Xbox 360's release.. when Sony left a huge gap of no competition... I remember when it happened people were complaining that it was bad business on Microsoft's part.. it was too early, etc.. everyone was saying "Forgot the 360 - just wait for the PS3" - and it's release kept getting pushed back further and further... and in the meantime the 360 grew it's player base from people just tired of sitting on their hands waiting for Sony's answer. Was it better strategy on Microsofts part, or is it better described as a blunder on Sony?

You must admit the Xbox is now what it wasn't several years ago. When Microsoft first announced their entrace into game consoles, people laughed... how could they ever compete against the 9 gigaton robot gorilla in the room? Well here we are and the tables have in fact turned. I just think the PS3 is too expensive, the bluray was just a bad move on Sony's part... yes its an awesome feature, and yes it's the only reason I purchased it... but.. how many more people didn't purchase the PS3 because of that feature sending the price sky rocketing? The 400.00 price tag is about right... but still... It's more expensive than the 360! STILL! Everyone toted the PS2 having better games than the 360... can that really be said for the PS3? I really don't think so... as the time shown the 360 has some real competitive titles.. it seems from the Sony community is oblivious to the titles that have creeped up. The big exclusive franchises for Sony were Gran Turismo, MGS, FF... And Microsoft hit back with Project Gotham/Forza, Gears of War/Halo, and I can't say Microsoft has a FF equivilent... but the thing is... the game franchises for Sony are less appealing... and arguable some of the Microsoft franchises have exceeded their competition.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I do attribute most of it to Microsoft since they have done so many things right over the last few months, but definitely Sony's blunders have helped them.

I have personally held off of a PS3 because of price and library, and I was a huge PS2 fan. I guess they may still pull it out this generation, but so far I just continue to not see it.

 

[Sixthsense]

MS doesn't have anything equivalent to MGS or FF. Nobody has played GT5 yet, so gameplay cannot be critically compared. But going off visuals and performance, GT5 is far and away the technical superior to PGR4 or Forza2.

According to B3D:
GT5 = approx 200k polys per car, 1080P 60 FPS
PGR4 = approx 75k polys per car, 720P 30 FPS

The graphics quality is simply on another level. By the end of next year, we'll have a much clearer picture of how this console generation may turn out.

I'll add to that, pretty much all racing games on the PS3 have 3rd party support for steering wheels (Logitech G25; a wheel that will never be available for the 360). Opposed to MS having a wireless steering wheel getting that gets recalled


OP, Is this thread actually neccessary? I mean cmon,you have a $700 video card (8800 GTX ULTRA) and your opinion the PS3 is expensive

 

[Defective]

Opposed to MS having a wireless steering wheel getting that gets recalled

While its great that the PS3 supports wheels made for PC, this part of your statement is irrelevant. The 360 wheels were recalled to fix a potential safety issue.

 

[Sixthsense]

I think you hit the nail on the head. I do attribute most of it to Microsoft since they have done so many things right over the last few months, but definitely Sony's blunders have helped them.

I have personally held off of a PS3 because of price and library, and I was a huge PS2 fan. I guess they may still pull it out this generation, but so far I just continue to not see it.

And what blunder would this be? a marketing blunder over a design flaw in the 360. Even the Halo 3 discs were to be found defective

 

[aramis]

And what blunder would this be? a marketing blunder over a design flaw in the 360. Even the Halo 3 discs were to be found defective

Sony's made a lot of mistakes. Cruise the forum history around here (or what's left of it anyway) to see some examples- Rumble, Bluetooth controller issues, Price, any number of dumb things that Sony reps have said, etc etc.

360's had it's share of mistakes as well, but these are mistakes after they already have an established fanbase who have purchased the console. The two things that you have noted have both been addressed and while it could be compared to a bandaid where stitches were needed, at least it is a step in the right direction.

It's obvious that Sony is not currently winning this generation, so I'm not sure where your acerbic comments stem from. I didn't bash the PS3 in any way and only responded to cerebex's post.

 

[deception``]

Aramis let's simply the argument even more:

The bottom line is that people continue to purchase the Xbox 360 even in lieu of it's hardware issues. Obviously, people are willing to take a risk on a console if it has the games that people want. That is why the 360 continues to sell well despite the RROD, overheating, and scratched discs.

 

[Sixthsense]

To be fair, I've stated in the past that Sony has alot of catching up to do in regards to online gaming. (not able to access XMB while in game, etc etc)

As much as I despise Ubisoft & EA .Graw 2 Skate, Dirt run noticeably better on the PS3. Not by a large margin, but the improvement is definitely there.

 

[Sixthsense]

Sony's made a lot of mistakes. Cruise the forum history around here (or what's left of it anyway) to see some examples- Rumble, Bluetooth controller issues, Price, any number of dumb things that Sony reps have said, etc etc.

360's had it's share of mistakes as well, but these are mistakes after they already have an established fanbase who have purchased the console. The two things that you have noted have both been addressed and while it could be compared to a bandaid where stitches were needed, at least it is a step in the right direction.

It's obvious that Sony is not currently winning this generation, so I'm not sure where your acerbic comments stem from. I didn't bash the PS3 in any way and only responded to cerebex's post.

I've been pretty unbiased torwards each console in the past. I can't say the same for most in this sub-forum. I present facts, and I'll dig up dirt on both consoles if needed be.The rumble issue was addressed via firmware initially. It's unfortunate that the rumble motor was not included on the original controller ,but there has been rumble on 3rd party peripherals for quite sometime. As for those issues you mentioned, does this keep a user from utilizing their PS3? The answer is no.

 

[aramis]

I've been pretty unbiased torwards each console in the past. I can't say the same for most in this sub-forum. I present facts, and I'll dig up dirt on both consoles if needed be.The rumble issue was addressed via firmware initially. It's unfortunate that the rumble motor was not included on the original controller ,but there has been rumble on 3rd party peripherals for quite sometime. As for those issues you mentioned, does this keep a user from utilizing their PS3? The answer is no.

No but it might keep a user from buying one in the first place. I think deception's simplification is pretty spot-on. The library just isn't there, and then you have a major change in controllers coming and still need a price drop (which I just read today is looking more and more solid for $399 for the holidays). This all means that people just aren't buying like they are with the 360 overall.

Maybe if they package rumble controller(s) with a $399 price tag I'll pick one up, but it'll mostly be for a Bluray player, not as a console. And that's honestly kind of sad overall since we're talking about the Playstation here.

Anecdotally, I know of two people that bought an Xbox due to Halo 3 (and Bioshock). While one of them already owned a PS3, I don't personally know of anyone who bought a PS3 because of a game.

To answer the thread title, the PS3 isn't faring well against Halo 3 right now. Maybe that'll change during the holidays.

 

[Sixthsense]

Honestly, I believe Sony seriosuly has to re-think the XMB gui for the PS3 to make online gaming more accomodating. I would have to literally exit a game just to check for messages. Not sure how " Home " will fit into this as I was not able to get into beta

 

[Defective]

I've been pretty unbiased torwards each console in the past. I can't say the same for most in this sub-forum. I present facts, and I'll dig up dirt on both consoles if needed be.The rumble issue was addressed via firmware initially. It's unfortunate that the rumble motor was not included on the original controller ,but there has been rumble on 3rd party peripherals for quite sometime. As for those issues you mentioned, does this keep a user from utilizing their PS3? The answer is no.

Sony's main blunders were:
1. Launching an expensive console against a cheaper console that already had a headstart.
2. Their marketing department and executives couldn't say anything that didn't make them look like asses.
3. Mixed message marketing (is it a game machine? is it not a game machine? Is it a giant taco that craps ice cream?)
4. Marketing the Sixaxis as not needing rumble, then including it later but not selling it with new consoles.
5. Not locking down formerly exclusive titles (reportedly, developers called, but Sony wasn't responding while Microsoft was constantly asking the devs to make the games for their system.)
6. Banking the success of the system on Blu-Ray. While many people enjoy this feature, it contributed to the delay of the system and pushed the system's price much higher. If Blu-Ray fails (I'm only saying "if". I'm not making a prediction.), then Sony is fucked when it comes to backwards compatability for the next generation.

The most important blunders were the loss of the 3rd party exclusives and delaying the system because of the inclusion of exotic hardware.

What wasn't Sony's fault was getting having the thunder of their launch completely stolen by Nintendo, except if you consider the delay of the PS3 being a blunder.

Microsoft really tried to screw up this generation with the 360's reliability problems. Fortunately for Microsoft, Sony didn't realize their mistakes and start clearing house (i.e. kick Kutaragi out the door) until it was really too late for them to capitalize on Microsoft's big screw up. If Sony had not included Blu-Ray (and came in at a cheaper price as a result), launched earlier (again, without Blu-Ray holding up it's release), and locked up the exclusives it already had on the PS2, they would have destroyed Microsoft.

 

[cerebrex]

MS doesn't have anything equivalent to MGS or FF. Nobody has played GT5 yet, so gameplay cannot be critically compared. But going off visuals and performance, GT5 is far and away the technical superior to PGR4 or Forza2.

According to B3D:
GT5 = approx 200k polys per car, 1080P 60 FPS
PGR4 = approx 75k polys per car, 720P 30 FPS

The graphics quality is simply on another level. By the end of next year, we'll have a much clearer picture of how this console generation may turn out.

I kinda find that hard to believe since the PGR3 cars average 96k each
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cach...ect+gotham+polycount&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

even so, lets say you're right... do you think it will suddenly cause a surge in sales? I really don't think so... I own both consoles... I bought a PS2 for GT.. however will I this time? I probably won't even buy it now because there are really great racing titles for the 360... I'm sure its a conflict of interest, but I like project gotham a lot - I had a lot of fun with that series.

Has everyone noticed how often people comment on the PS3 being purchased for it's blu ray? That is very bad for Sony. Sure, they sell a console, and sure they have a potential customer for games. The problem is this creates a false sense of success. A console's library is what keeps it alive, the games are what makes the money. I believe the blu-ray feature will be responsible for a lot of sold consoles, but not games... and that will not be evident until a year or so passes by, and they realize the games to console ratio is much lower than their previous systems. Anyone who purchases an Xbox 360 did so for the games. A LOT of people that purchased a PS3 did so for the bluray player.. not the games. Personally, I know of 3 people (out of the 5 that I know total) that own a PS3 and will never purchase a PS3 game.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Flawed premise.

Yes, it IS a flawed premise, and that was my point. Many MGs/PS3 fanboys continue to assert that MGS4 will fundamentally alter the landscape of current gen console sales, and that simply isn't likely to be the case at all. MGS is a great series--easily my favorite on any console--but no single game alone is enough to save ANY hardware platform.

$399 is a substantial price reduction. There is no reason to believe Sony won't continue reducing the price as soon as possible. Christmas '08 PS3 should be down to $299. And next year there is a flood of AAA exclusives coming.

$399 would definitely be a nice start, and if that rumor is true it will certainly help a good deal. Of course, it will probably immediately be countered with a 360 Premium at $299 and core at $249, with the Elite rounding out the pack at $399 or less. There is simply no reason to believe that even a $399 price cut would fundamentally alter the console landscape. Further, Sony has, as yet, not cut the price of entry to the PS3 platform *at all*, not even once. They changed the package you get at the $500 and $600 entry points, but those entry points themselves remain where they were at launch.

Also, there isn't a "flood" of AAA titles coming exclusively to PS3 next year, there are a handful. Most of the big titles are still cross platform, and MGS4, while AAA unquestionably, will probably have a Halo effect in that it'll spur sales in the short term but they'll taper back off in the longer term (and I fully expect that to be the case for 360/Halo3 when the NPD numbers for September and probably October come out). There are certainly some interesting looking titles coming for PS3, but I think you're severely overoptimistic about a $299 PS3 by Xmas 2008. It's possible, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

Regarding the Wii, Nintendo has the arrogance to demand a profit on last generation hardware. They were selling GC for $99 years ago. Gamecube 1.5 costs $250 ? $150 for waggle is just wrong. I know you say otherwise, but most people agree the Wii software library is the worst of the new consoles by far. Zelda, Mario, Metroid .... and party games !!! Wheeeee

It's not arrogance to sell their product for a profit, it's SMART BUSINESS. They are selling a platform with a slew of new features and capabilities that plays games in a way no other console ever has or *can* even today, and they happened to hit an interest place that people en masse clearly *love*. You're paying the $150 for not just the motion sensing but the wifi (MS charges $100 for Wifi ALONE, need you be reminded), the built in storage, virtual console (effectively giving you an ever growing array of consoles from past generations to play on without the hassle of stringing wires from obsolete connections, digging out old cartridges and hoping to hell you can get a controller working), the included game and the new way to play. While demand remains this high, there isn't a reason in the world for Nintendo to drop the price, and I wouldn't either. I'll take the man who's upfront about his profit motive over the Altruist Liar who pretends to have no self interest, selling it to you at a loss because he cares that you have the best for cheap ANY day.

That said, it's CLEAR that the Wii has the weakest software lineup right now, and it's also clear why: Publishers--who are the decision makers of the industry--took a "wait and see" approach and didn't develop anything leading up to the Wii launch. When it became clear that Wii was an unqualified success, they scrambled to get product on the shelves, and the fastest way to do that is to shovel ports of PS2 and Xbox games out the door as fast as they could, and voila, we have shelves stuffed with trash, and only a few diamonds in the pile. You shouldn't be surprised--PS2's library is 80% shovelware trash, but it's the 20% diamonds that make the system worth owning.

Right now, PS3 has about 50 announced exclusive titles coming for it. 360 has about 100. Wii, meanwhile, has close to 150. Why? Because it's selling gangbusters, and that means dollars, and that's the language publishers speak, and it's the language in which they tell developers what platforms to design for. It's not a hard chain to follow

In any case, 360 has *far and away* the best library in teh current generation, with PS3 and Wii roughly neck and neck in software, but the PS3 being beaten like a red headed stepchild in sales the world over. It isn't hard to follow that chain either, and you can see it in action by looking at the PS2: The platform selling the most units the fastest gets teh most and best games, especially exclusives.

 

[TheToE!]

Hell yea Sony is feeling the squeeze from MS and Nintendo. PS3 has nothing that even comes close to what MS has with Halo. People kept saying, "give em a year", wait until Lair, MGS4, ect. ect. Bottom line is Sony has nothing that warrants buying a PS3 right now. I also agree that if MGS4 is their flagship savior, then thats sad. I you were a developer that was not owned by Sony you would be a fool to develop exclusively for the PS3. This is where the problem lies. PS3 is going to need some sort of must have game in order to start being competitive. Pardon me, but I just dont see MGS4 and a racing game ( no matter how good )getting the job done.

 

[Psychotext]

I think people are putting too much stock in the power of the PS3. Even if it does turn out to be more powerful than the 360 (GT is a bad example because polyphony are gods... look what they did with the PS2), will it really make any difference?

The issue Sony has right now is persuading third parties to make the best use of their console. Look what happened to the xbox last time around (a machine which proved considerably more powerful than the PS2 from day one).

 

[Sixthsense]

Sony's main blunders were:
6. Banking the success of the system on Blu-Ray. While many people enjoy this feature, it contributed to the delay of the system and pushed the system's price much higher. If Blu-Ray fails (I'm only saying "if". I'm not making a prediction.), then Sony is fucked when it comes to backwards compatability for the next generation.
.

Choosing Blu-Ray is probably the smartest decision Sony has made over DVD. It's effectively keeping the warez monkeys out from playing backups.

 

[Stereophile]

even so, lets say you're right... do you think it will suddenly cause a surge in sales? I really don't think so... I own both consoles... I bought a PS2 for GT.. however will I this time?

Gran Turismo franchise has sold something like 45 million copies. It's HUGE in Japan and is quite popular over here. This title will move units. WRT to PGR4, 75k polys is the figure I remember seeing. Remember, PGR4 is going all out and rendering at true 720p this time.

 

[MrBojangels]

You're kidding, right? Just because you don't play MGS doesn't mean no one else does.

In fact, taken from Halo 2's Wiki:
"As of September 2007, more than 6.5 million units of the game had been sold worldwide."
Very nice. That's both Xbox and GFW sales, by the way.

Okay, let's look at MGS2's Wiki:
"...having sold over 7 million copies worldwide."

No where near Halo by any stretch of the imagination, huh?



For reference, MGS1 sold approx. 6 million, while MGS3 sold approx. 4 million (which is a shame, because it's arguably the best chapter in the series). Halo 1 sold approx. 4 million as well, and Halo 3 has SHIPPED 4 million to retailers, but I highly doubt they've reached that number sold yet.

EDIT: Damn, beaten to it!

Compared to how many PS1+PS2 consoles were out compared to Xbox 1?

 

[MrBojangels]

MS doesn't have anything equivalent to MGS or FF. Nobody has played GT5 yet, so gameplay cannot be critically compared. But going off visuals and performance, GT5 is far and away the technical superior to PGR4 or Forza2.

According to B3D:
GT5 = approx 200k polys per car, 1080P 60 FPS
PGR4 = approx 75k polys per car, 720P 30 FPS

The graphics quality is simply on another level. By the end of next year, we'll have a much clearer picture of how this console generation may turn out.

Yeah, and how many polygons in the environments, how shader intensive, ect.

It is easy to spin numbers, isn't it?

 

[Grentz]

Choosing Blu-Ray is probably the smartest decision Sony has made over DVD. It's effectively keeping the warez monkeys out from playing backups.

Why/How? Both blu-ray and HD-DVD are cracked and there are bootlegged copies of both on torrent/warez sites...

 

[Grentz]

Yeah, and how many polygons in the environments, how shader intensive, ect.

It is easy to spin numbers, isn't it?

Not to even mention the GT"X" series sucks compared to Forza 2

yes, I used to love the GT series when I had a PS2, yes I have played just about every racing series out there, yes Forza/Forza 2 are the best so far!

 

[MrBojangels]

Not to even mention the GT"X" series sucks compared to Forza 2

yes, I used to love the GT series when I had a PS2, yes I have played just about every racing series out there, yes Forza/Forza 2 are the best so far!

The ONLY thing Forza 2 did right was car handling, I will be the first to admit the graphics blow and I was let down after Forza 1(personally I feel the devs half assed the game, but that is how I feel with Oblivion too)

Not to mention the Microsoft wheel pretty much sucks compared to PC wheels.

 

[Defective]

Choosing Blu-Ray is probably the smartest decision Sony has made over DVD. It's effectively keeping the warez monkeys out from playing backups.

Come now, that is such an insignificant factor. It is nothing compared to the increased cost of the system or the delays that it caused. Thats just counting pennies while the dollars fly by.

Of all the possible reason explanations you could have chosen as for why Blu-Ray was a smart decision, you chose the worst.

Both the PS1 and PS2 had mod chips made for them that allowed the playing of "backup games" but those consoles were rediculously successful for Sony.

 

[Stereophile]

Yeah, and how many polygons in the environments, how shader intensive, ect.

I don't know, but you're smoking crack if you don't believe GT5 will blow PGR4 away in the graphics dept. Even if it's just the car models that are twice as detailed, and the environments are equal quality, it will look much better.

Hell, just based on resolution and fps, we know GT5 is rendering over four times as many pixels per second as PGR4.

1080P 60 FPS, vs 720P 30 FPS.

Spin that !

 

[Defective]

The GT director is a notorious perfectionist. Of course, this also means that the game takes forever. It should be a very good looking game. If GT is anything less than spectacular, people will be disappointed. It's too bad that the PS3 doesn't have a setup like XBL. Forza 2 worked well with the matchmaking service. Maybe Sony will have tried to mimic it by then.

PGR is its own type of racing game. GT is a polished somewhat arcade racer. Forza is a technical realistic racer with damage, but not as good looking as GT. PGR and GT don't have the same type of style so I don't think they can be compared. Forza and GT are more closely related, but GT, at least at this point and judging by the demo, is still going for a bit more of the arcade feel. Realistic, but still giving the player some fudge room.

The PS3 certainly needs GT and it will do well for them. They just need to make sure it doesn't get delayed again.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

I don't know, but you're smoking crack if you don't believe GT5 will blow PGR4 away in the graphics dept. Even if it's just the car models that are twice as detailed, and the environments are equal quality, it will look much better.

Hell, just based on resolution and fps, we know GT5 is rendering over four times as many pixels per second as PGR4.

1080P 60 FPS, vs 720P 30 FPS.

Spin that !

If GT5 is anything like the other GT games, it'll likely use a great many nice textures stretch across flat, non-detailed low polygon surfaces, but with texture work so maddeningly precise and beautiful that it'll take a trained eye to really tell. Given that PS3 simply doesn't have any significant amount of additional bandwidth over 360, it's clear that the hardware isn't the issue. The GT designers are *masters* of the texturing and rendering artform, they're like the Team Ninja of racing designers.

That said, I was VERY disappointed in Forza 2. Granted, I hate racing games in general anyway, but I thought Forza 2 was particularly unsophisticated graphically. I'm told by people who enjoy driving far more than I do that the physics are spot on, however.

Meh, I'll take Excite Truck over GT or Forza any day

 

[Stereophile]

Yeah I wasn't trying to imply GT5 looked so much better because PS3 hardware is so infinitely more powerful. Just that GT5 looks infinitely better than any other racing game on X360. No doubt due to Polyphony's awesome coders. It pays to have good 1st party developers on your side.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Yeah I wasn't trying to imply GT5 looked so much better because PS3 hardware is so infinitely more powerful. Just that GT5 looks infinitely better than any other racing game on X360. No doubt due to Polyphony's awesome coders. It pays to have good 1st party developers on your side.

I'd say it's because of their art direction and design, actually. Coding will only get you so much when it comes to visual fidelity. Literally the older GT games had *uber* simple, low poly environments with fantastic texture work so that they could spend their whole polygon budget on the cars themselves. I have no doubt they'll follow a similar methodology with the new GT. And I agree it looks better (so far) than any racer released on 360, though to be fair, PGR4 is looking pretty sweet, too, and the environments will certainly have more *actual* detail. Of course, personally I'd say spend the budget on cars, but that's an art design choice, and I don't see anything wrong with the choice Bizarre made, either; PGR4 is frickin' *gorgeous*.

 

[Stereophile]

and the environments will certainly have more *actual* detail.

The cityscapes in the GT5 trailers look as good as anything I've seen in the PGR series. I think you have to give their coders credit for pushing 1920x1080 60 fps. IIRC PGR3 was 600P, and PGR4 will be 720P

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

The cityscapes in the GT5 trailers look as good as anything I've seen in the PGR series. I think you have to give their coders credit for pushing 1920x1080 60 fps. IIRC PGR3 was 600P, and PGR4 will be 720P

You misunderstand the design process. The coders obviously did a great job with the engine, no question about it, but it's efficient *Art Design* that enables that kind of visual fidelity to be pushed through a system with bandwidth as limited as it is on PS3 (or for that matter, 360) while still looking great. The best art directors make games that LOOK like they have insane levels of polygon detail without there actually *being* insane levels of polygon detail. More polygons=slower rendering *regardless* of resolution, and that rule will continue to apply to hardware for a very long time yet.

GT looks great because it's *efficient*.

 

[cerebrex]

You misunderstand the design process. The coders obviously did a great job with the engine, no question about it, but it's efficient *Art Design* that enables that kind of visual fidelity to be pushed through a system with bandwidth as limited as it is on PS3 (or for that matter, 360) while still looking great. The best art directors make games that LOOK like they have insane levels of polygon detail without there actually *being* insane levels of polygon detail. More polygons=slower rendering *regardless* of resolution, and that rule will continue to apply to hardware for a very long time yet.

GT looks great because it's *efficient*.

Yes, optimizing is key. The argument earlier in the thread over polycount is ridiculous, theres no need for a car to be that poly intensive now that normal mapping allows for unlimited polys in the high res model. This is right up my alley as I'm working on an as of yet unannounced racing title for X360/PC - and our poly counts are no where near 100k per vehicle, and the vehicles look fantastic due to proper normal mapping/shader application.

 

[Stereophile]

The argument earlier in the thread over polycount is ridiculous, theres no need for a car to be that poly intensive now that normal mapping allows for unlimited polys in the high res model.

Well I'm sure Polyphony has their reasons for 200k counts. I'm sure you can achieve good results with less, but I don't think you're in any position to say there is no need for that high of poly counts.

 

[Stereophile]

You misunderstand the design process. The coders obviously did a great job with the engine, no question about it, but it's efficient *Art Design* that enables that kind of visual fidelity to be pushed through a system with bandwidth as limited as it is on PS3 (or for that matter, 360) while still looking great.

I follow what you're saying, if the graphics assets are well designed, it can look as good or superior despite there being less actual 3d objects to render. But I don't think there is any question Polyphony is pushing PS3 hardware closer to its potential than what bizarre did with PGR4. GT5 is drawing frames twice as fast and at a much higher resolution. I don't buy the argument that it's solely attributable to the art design, that GT5 can run so much smoother, just because the textures are so well made - that they're not in fact using more computational power than PGR4 utilizes on X360.

Polyphony is simply far ahead of the curve compared to other developers. Eggebrecht said they used less than half of its potential in Lair. Insomniac predicted in future PS3 titles, they'll be able to push 3 times as much data as what they accomplished in R+C Tools of Destruction. GT5 looks good because, while they're masters at efficient art design, they're also in fact getting more out of the HW than any racing game has extracted from the X360. It makes sense. They should be considering Polyphony is one of Sony's own studios. I doubt anyone has the same familiarity and finesse with the PS3 hardware. I don't think GT6 will be a huge leap. Much like GT4 wasn't a huge leap over GT3. GT5 will push the PS3 hard. X360 racing games probably have more room for improvement. Maybe in a few years, after cerebrex's game comes out, X360 will have a racing game that looks as good.

 

[MrBojangels]

I don't know, but you're smoking crack if you don't believe GT5 will blow PGR4 away in the graphics dept. Even if it's just the car models that are twice as detailed, and the environments are equal quality, it will look much better.

Hell, just based on resolution and fps, we know GT5 is rendering over four times as many pixels per second as PGR4.

1080P 60 FPS, vs 720P 30 FPS.

Spin that !

I'm sorry but it's a given that PGR4 will have way more detailed environments, GTX series has only had one strong point ever going for it and that was car detail.

 

[Stereophile]

I'm sorry but it's a given that PGR4 will have way more detailed environments, GTX series has only had one strong point ever going for it and that was car detail.

That's not a given. It's your assertion with no evidence. The two series have never gone head to head on comparable hardware, so comparing environmental detail on a PS2 game vs an Xbox game is not relevant.

 

[Rash]

That's not a given. It's your assertion with no evidence. The two series have never gone head to head on comparable hardware, so comparing environmental detail on a PS2 game vs an Xbox game is not relevant.

I thought you 360 fans say its all about the gameplay nowadays? Why are you moaning about detail again?

 

[cerebrex]

Well I'm sure Polyphony has their reasons for 200k counts. I'm sure you can achieve good results with less, but I don't think you're in any position to say there is no need for that high of poly counts.

My position as an art director is exactly the position someone would need to be in to make exactly the claim I did make. Most likely the reason why it wasn't optimized is due to time constraints - it takes quite some time to optimize, and it's almost always one of the latter processes in a normal design schedule - at the mercy of the publisher most of the time.

 

[InorganicMatter]

You're kidding, right? Just because you don't play MGS doesn't mean no one else does.

In fact, taken from Halo 2's Wiki:
"As of September 2007, more than 6.5 million units of the game had been sold worldwide."
Very nice. That's both Xbox and GFW sales, by the way.

Okay, let's look at MGS2's Wiki:
"...having sold over 7 million copies worldwide."

No where near Halo by any stretch of the imagination, huh?

For reference, MGS1 sold approx. 6 million, while MGS3 sold approx. 4 million (which is a shame, because it's arguably the best chapter in the series). Halo 1 sold approx. 4 million as well, and Halo 3 has SHIPPED 4 million to retailers, but I highly doubt they've reached that number sold yet.

EDIT: Damn, beaten to it!

LAWL! You do realize that MGS2 has been out literally twice as long as Halo 2, right? Since we are considering long-term (a game from 2001is, after all, a long time in technology), take a look at these numbers in a few years doing some simple math:

Halo 2 will surpass MGS2 is total sales by next year
By the year 2010, Halo 2 will have sold 13 million copies, while MGS2 will have sold 10.5 million

Yeah, you have to consider these things.

 

[Rash]

LAWL! You do realize that MGS2 has been out literally twice as long as Halo 2, right? Since we are considering long-term (a game from 2001is, after all, a long time in technology), take a look at these numbers in a few years doing some simple math:

Halo 2 will surpass MGS2 is total sales by next year
By the year 2010, Halo 2 will have sold 13 million copies, while MGS2 will have sold 10.5 million

Yeah, you have to consider these things.

I dont think halo2 or mgs2 are going to sell many more copies in the next few years, unless they come out on a handheld or the wii with special controls. Its like halo 2 for vista, no one really gives a fuck about it.

 

[TechHead]

Why/How? Both blu-ray and HD-DVD are cracked and there are bootlegged copies of both on torrent/warez sites...

Yeah, but how many PC Blu-Ray burners do you see widely available?